What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[VegettoEX]

So, there would be fewer and fewer topics to talk about.

There can never be fewer. Topics can't be erased. There can only ever be more. There can only ever be a combination of existing topics and new topics, never less than that.

There's nothing better than this to generate online traffic around the franchise.

I'm glad that you found a series that you enjoy and were able to play along while a new portion of it was airing anew; that is indeed a unique experience, and it sounds like you enjoyed it.

... but if it's not clear, no-one on staff here cares about "generating online traffic around the franchise". We'll do what we want, at the pace we want, at the quality we want. The existence and longevity of this site in particular has literally nothing to do with, nor relies on, ongoing new productions.

[SupremeKai25]

So, there would be fewer and fewer topics to talk about.

There can never be fewer. Topics can't be erased. There can only ever be more. There can only ever be a combination of existing topics and new topics, never less than that.

There's nothing better than this to generate online traffic around the franchise.

I'm glad that you found a series that you enjoy and were able to play along while a new portion of it was airing anew; that is indeed a unique experience, and it sounds like you enjoyed it.

... but if it's not clear, no-one on staff here cares about "generating online traffic around the franchise". We'll do what we want, at the pace we want, at the quality we want. The existence and longevity of this site in particular has literally nothing to do with, nor relies on, ongoing new productions.

Sure! Thanks for the clarification.

[fadeddreams5]

New lame thing incoming: Majin Kuu. He ended up being exactly what I predicted: a dud who could not beat the Tamagami. If this was DBZ, the Tamagami would have done what Trunks did to Frieza to him, or his master would have killed him on the spot. But that would be too violent for this show.

Isn’t that largely the problem though? Everyone involved in the creation of Super was ill-equipped, and the whole thing’s ultimately been a mess that I’d argue has retroactively cheapened the original manga.

As for Minus, I can’t say I agree with the notion that it’s including in the Broly movie was much of an improvement. It still changes Goku’s backstory in a way that I consider detrimental.

I agree with the Minus change being awful, but I don't see any of this cheapening the original manga either. The manga had its run and ended, much like the DBZ anime, so I like to see it as its own thing. None of this new content, nor GT, diminish it in any way. Until Shueisha creates an official timeline that confirms GT, the DBZ movies, and the OG Bardock special are non canon, I will continue convincing myself there are multiple multiverses. lol.

[Grimlock]

Until Shueisha creates an official timeline that confirms GT, the DBZ movies, and the OG Bardock special are non canon, I will continue convincing myself there are multiple multiverses. lol.

As part of my new consideration that I've been asked to do, I must warn you: careful, you might frustrate others with this thinking, you don't want to frustrate others here. There is no "Movieverse", no "this happens here, that happens there" Multiverse shit, as per the people on this forum, who hold the highest authority and can dictate what's canonical and what's not to you.

[VegettoEX]

As part of my new consideration that I've been asked to do, I must warn you: careful, you might frustrate others with this thinking, you don't want to frustrate others here. There is no "Movieverse", no "this happens here, that happens there" Multiverse shit, as per the people on this forum, who hold the highest authority and can dictate what's canonical and what's not to you.

Hello again! To be clear, because you seem to need this kind of direction:

This is you being obnoxiously petty. This is, again, embarrassing to read. Posts of this type are not wanted. What we ask for are helpful, thoughtful posts. You are free to challenge viewpoints and ask for further clarification. You are not free to whine, carry on, and play the victim because you're getting called out on your attitude multiple times over by multiple people.

There's a lot of good conversation happening on social lately about how there's always "that one guy" who's not technically "breaking the rules" but is just a pain the absolute ass to deal with on a regular basis, and how you don't need to strictly follow the letter of the law when it comes to permanently removing them, because going by the spirit of the law is better in the long run and makes for a better environment for the 99.99999999% rest of the userbase. We don't like doing this, but we did have to in somewhat recent memory, and I think it's fair to say it made an IMMEDIATE difference -- literally day and night.

I don't want that to happen to you. You seem to have worthwhile things to say, a good base of information kicking around in your head, and a true love for the series. It’s clear you get something valuable and fulfilling out of being here. Maybe let's reconsider again? (This is less a request and more a final warning.)

[super michael]

From experience even before BoG was a idea, many forums were active with Dragon Ball discussion. There was game thread such as "Beat the Geek", "Who Wants to be a Millionaire Dragon Ball question", Tournament with vote which character would win if they are equal power level", "Some draws a character and has to make a convincing post to convince others to vote that they would win", etc.

Dragon Ball discussion has never been dead. However thanks to DBS, activity has increased a lot more. In some website they had to increase the moderators in their website or sections.

There was also Freeza Spy game, which is guess who is the killer, while the killer tries to survive.

[Raki]

I do find myself wondering these days if Dragon Ball would’ve been better off not getting a revival. I suppose BoG would’ve been made with or without Toriyama’s involvement, and by all accounts, his involvement did greatly improve the film, but maybe that should’ve been the end of it. Just let BoG be a fun little reunion, rather than the beginning of a new era of Dragon Ball.

I will say, I definitely don’t think Minus should’ve ever existed. We didn’t need a manga that retcons Goku’s backstory just so we can learn who his mom is.

Wait people don't like the Minus story? I thought it was fine. The expanded backstory for Goku's family is a welcomed change. We don't have any real knowledge of most of the fighters or their history.

[WittyUsername]

I do find myself wondering these days if Dragon Ball would’ve been better off not getting a revival. I suppose BoG would’ve been made with or without Toriyama’s involvement, and by all accounts, his involvement did greatly improve the film, but maybe that should’ve been the end of it. Just let BoG be a fun little reunion, rather than the beginning of a new era of Dragon Ball.

I will say, I definitely don’t think Minus should’ve ever existed. We didn’t need a manga that retcons Goku’s backstory just so we can learn who his mom is.

Wait people don't like the Minus story? I thought it was fine. The expanded backstory for Goku's family is a welcomed change. We don't have any real knowledge of most of the fighters or their history.

It’s contentious at best from my experience. It’s certainly not as universally well regarded as the Toei Bardock special.

[Shaddy]

There's a lot of good conversation happening on social lately about how there's always "that one guy" who's not technically "breaking the rules" but is just a pain the absolute ass to deal with on a regular basis, and how you don't need to strictly follow the letter of the law when it comes to permanently removing them, because going by the spirit of the law is better in the long run and makes for a better environment for the 99.99999999% rest of the userbase. We don't like doing this, but we did have to in somewhat recent memory, and I think it's fair to say it made an IMMEDIATE difference -- literally day and night.

You read that post about somethingawful too, didn't you.

[KorgDTR2000]

I do find myself wondering these days if Dragon Ball would’ve been better off not getting a revival. I suppose BoG would’ve been made with or without Toriyama’s involvement, and by all accounts, his involvement did greatly improve the film, but maybe that should’ve been the end of it. Just let BoG be a fun little reunion, rather than the beginning of a new era of Dragon Ball.

I will say, I definitely don’t think Minus should’ve ever existed. We didn’t need a manga that retcons Goku’s backstory just so we can learn who his mom is.

Wait people don't like the Minus story? I thought it was fine. The expanded backstory for Goku's family is a welcomed change. We don't have any real knowledge of most of the fighters or their history.

Put me in the camp that hated it. I hated that it turned Goku into even more of a Superman-analogue, and I hated what it did to Bardock. I never needed more backstory than what was in the Bardock special.

[JulieYBM]

I really like how Dragon Ball Super Broli handled depicting Bardock as kind of just over the whole Saiyan thing. He spent a lifetime warring and at the end of it all did not find fulfillment. I think that's a really relatable character arc and one that I wish could have been expanded upon a bit more.

I do wish that Gine had been more of a character, though. How does a Saiyan like her fit into society? I imagine that she faces challenges for not being Saiyan-esque, so how does she fight against those for her own respect?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I didn't like how Dragon Ball Minus softened Bardock but when I seen Super Broly I made peace with it. Toriyama admitted that he would never write a story as dark as the Bardock special, so a redemption arc fits better into his world.

I don't know if retconning the reason for Goku being sent to Earth helped though as the idea of him being sent to wipe out the inhabitants was what caused the conflict with Raditz to begin with. Bardock only realising saving someone instead of killing them would be a good idea after the fact probably would have been more powerful than it being his motive upfront.

[fadeddreams5]

Dragon Ball Minus, along with the SSJ Bardock special, is what inspired this thread back in 2015. Needless to say, I'm not fond of it. The original Bardock Special is one of the best things to come out of this franchise. It should have been left untouched.

[TheMikado]

To frame this more succinctly there is a faction of the fandom which truly believes:
Toriyama = Good content.
Non-Toriyama = bad content

I fail to see how this is a problem. All things being equal, deferring to the creator is the least worrisome standard anyone can have as far as fiction goes.

How is this not and problem??
Ascribing the quality of content exclusively by the creator and not its artistic value?

The latest debate shows exactly why this is a problem.

[fadeddreams5]

I fail to see how this is a problem. All things being equal, deferring to the creator is the least worrisome standard anyone can have as far as fiction goes.

How is this not and problem??
Ascribing the quality of content exclusively by the creator and not its artistic value?

The latest debate shows exactly why this is a problem.

Yup. I see so many fans praising Toriyama from his grave for making SSJ4 canon (debatable, btw, at least by the context they are using this word) and celebrating this as the best thing ever made without questioning wtf this form even is, how Neva unlocked it, and not criticizing the lack of foreshadowing. And if you do, "omg, Dragon Ball fans are never happy with anything!!"

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I know many will say yesterday's Ssj4 is the lamest thing, but for me the king is still modern Bardock. Not only because of how bad he was written in Minus, but because they refuse to move away from him. His "wish" in the Granola arc may be one of the worst written moments in the entire franchise. Considering the original pitch for him back in the 90s was to meet and fight Goku somehow, I expect that idea to be fully revisited sometime in the future.

The latest debate shows exactly why this is a problem.

What this tells me is that these people secretly like all these aspects of the franchise, be it Ssj4, Broly, Cooler, etc..., but for some reason believe it's shameful to like something the original creator wasn't 100% involved with.

[fadeddreams5]

What this tells me is that these people secretly like all these aspects of the franchise, be it Ssj4, Broly, Cooler, etc..., but for some reason believe it's shameful to like something the original creator wasn't 100% involved with.

Which is crazy because the two best stories to ever come from this franchise had little to do with him (Bardock - Father of Goku and History of Trunks). In fact, he straight up ruined one, which you mentioned.

Toriyama was a creative genius, but Dragon Ball became what it did because that genius was tamed by editors who called him out on crappy ideas and made him revise them. The problem with modern DB is I'm sure the younger workers around him had too much respect to question anything from the late sensei. Daima probably wouldn't even be greenlit if he pitched it back in the 90s.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Toriyama was a creative genius, but Dragon Ball became what it did because that genius was tamed by editors who called him out on crappy ideas and made him revise them. The problem with modern DB is I'm sure the younger workers around him had too much respect to question anything from the late sensei. Daima probably wouldn't even be greenlit if he pitched it back in the 90s.

Not only was Toriyama regularly questioned by his editors (I mean this in a good way), but the anime's staff weren't afraid to change/expand things from the manga that didn't quite work, especially in the King Piccolo and Buu arcs. Fans pretend that classic DB was all Toriyama, but in fact, it was a collaborative effort between him, his editors, and the anime's producer. It's such a shame that the contributions of these editors and producers have gone under the radar, as they deserve just as much credit for the franchise's success back in the day as Toriyama does.

[Jord]

What this tells me is that these people secretly like all these aspects of the franchise, be it Ssj4, Broly, Cooler, etc..., but for some reason believe it's shameful to like something the original creator wasn't 100% involved with.

Which is crazy because the two best stories to ever come from this franchise had little to do with him (Bardock - Father of Goku and History of Trunks). In fact, he straight up ruined one, which you mentioned.

Toriyama was a creative genius, but Dragon Ball became what it did because that genius was tamed by editors who called him out on crappy ideas and made him revise them. The problem with modern DB is I'm sure the younger workers around him had too much respect to question anything from the late sensei. Daima probably wouldn't even be greenlit if he pitched it back in the 90s.

Especially in it's current revival, the Toriyama name was just used as a form of marketing, just look at trailers where is name is often the first to pop up. This reinforces the belief he was responsible for everything great DB.

[SupremeKai25]

What this tells me is that these people secretly like all these aspects of the franchise, be it Ssj4, Broly, Cooler, etc..., but for some reason believe it's shameful to like something the original creator wasn't 100% involved with.

Which is crazy because the two best stories to ever come from this franchise had little to do with him (Bardock - Father of Goku and History of Trunks). In fact, he straight up ruined one, which you mentioned.

Toriyama was a creative genius, but Dragon Ball became what it did because that genius was tamed by editors who called him out on crappy ideas and made him revise them. The problem with modern DB is I'm sure the younger workers around him had too much respect to question anything from the late sensei. Daima probably wouldn't even be greenlit if he pitched it back in the 90s.

Especially in it's current revival, the Toriyama name was just used as a form of marketing, just look at trailers where is name is often the first to pop up. This reinforces the belief he was responsible for everything great DB.

No? In the case of Modern DB (Super and Daima), he literally wrote all those storylines. Just because he also let others add new things to his writing doesn't change the fact that these are all characters and stories born out of his own imagination.

Beerus, Whis, Hit, Cabba, Frost, Zamasu, Goku Black, Jiren, Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Kefla, Toppo, Champa, Vados, etc. all characters written and created by Toriyama himself, with other talented writers also giving him concepts for those characters or additions that he then incorporated into his own writing, without fearing an incoming deadline (how refreshing that must have felt like).

Maybe Toriyama's name was constantly used as a "form of marketing" in modern DB because... he was literally the writer of all those stories? DBZ fans are never satisfied by simple explanations and always need to come up with weird "marketing" conspiracies.