Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 10 - Official Discussion Thread

[nato25]

So did Rymus also create Zen-Oh and GP when he whipped up the multiverse?

On the Rymus/Zeno speculation: My personal theory is that Zeno is a successor that's either Rymus' offspring, distant descendent, or reincarnation.

My only problem with takes like this, doesn't it seem like zen-oh and the whole hierarchy has been in place for millions of years? We have elder kai as a reference point at least, Nahare is meant to be a younger kai but it seems he was around at the forefront of Rymus creating the multiverse (which is also a problem that the main cast is hearing about the multiverse for the first time through this and not from Battle of Gods events).

I haven't been so confused about the lore of this series since Goku Black changed how time travel works in this series.

[Majin Buu]

My only problem with takes like this, doesn't it seem like zen-oh and the whole hierarchy has been in place for millions of years? We have elder kai as a reference point at least, Nahare is meant to be a younger kai but it seems he was around at the forefront of Rymus creating the multiverse (which is also a problem that the main cast is hearing about the multiverse for the first time through this and not from Battle of Gods events).

I'm thinking Rymus was simply around for a very long time and then died or retired at some point.

But again, this is just speculation. We may or may not find out what happened to him (or if he even still exists in any capacity).

[Yuji]

So did Rymus also create Zen-Oh and GP when he whipped up the multiverse?

On the Rymus/Zeno speculation: My personal theory is that Zeno is a successor that's either Rymus' offspring, distant descendent, or reincarnation.

My only problem with takes like this, doesn't it seem like zen-oh and the whole hierarchy has been in place for millions of years? We have elder kai as a reference point at least, Nahare is meant to be a younger kai but it seems he was around at the forefront of Rymus creating the multiverse (which is also a problem that the main cast is hearing about the multiverse for the first time through this and not from Battle of Gods events).

I haven't been so confused about the lore of this series since Goku Black changed how time travel works in this series.

Yes, the timescale for this new lore is also confusing to me. It seems the events Daima describes are relatively recent in the cosmic scale. The Namekian and Glind exodus seems to have happened a few thousand years ago. The series talks about how Neva created the demon world dragon balls. Namekians live a few hundred years. Maybe Neva has lived more, for a few thousand. Perhaps he's immortal, we'll see.

At the same time it's also referencing events from billions of years ago such as the creation of the multiverse. While implying Shin was around back then, but Boo and Shin's story was, what, 5 million years ago? So did Shin and the Glinds leave the Demon Realm because of Boo or were they appointed as Gods beforehand?

I'm eager for the details because it seems the series is trying to tie various bits and pieces together but the chronology just doesn't make much sense at the moment.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think Shin was implied to be around when Rymus kickstarted everything. He just knows about it.

I understood that Rymus created everything eons ago, appointed Glinds as gods (probably Ro Kaioshin was not appointed until many eons later), and at some point in time, millions of years ago, Nahare was drafted. Around this time, Buu is created, forces everybody to leave (on top of the Tree running on fumes, I guess), and he moves to U7 where Shin was already living.

Things that don't add up just yet to me are the reasons why the Glinds left. I guess only some of them where chosen as gods, so others were left behind until Buu or the Tree forced them to seek greener pastures.

And of course the link between Rymus and Zeno. Rymus chose Glinds and they now serve Zeno. Perhaps this Super Majin was selfless, made the entire fucking thing and let somebody else rule over it.
If it wasn't for the ears we would be definitely thinking they are related, or that Rymus is Zeno's real name... and he is benjamin buttoning or something, or his reencarnation.

I bet there's another lore-filled episode waiting for us at the Glind planet. hopefully we'll learn more about this. Although, Zeno should not be mentioned, Shin doesn't know about him. He seems to be the most well-kept secret in the multiverse.

[Yuji]

I don't think Shin was implied to be around when Rymus kickstarted everything. He just knows about it.

I understood that Rymus created everything eons ago, appointed Glinds as gods (probably Ro Kaioshin was not appointed until many eons later), and at some point in time, millions of years ago, Nahare was drafted. Around this time, Buu is created, forces everybody to leave (on top of the Tree running on fumes, I guess), and he moves to U7 where Shin was already living.

Things that don't add up just yet to me are the reasons why the Glinds left. I guess only some of them where chosen as gods, so others were left behind until Buu or the Tree forced them to seek greener pastures.

And of course the link between Rymus and Zeno. Rymus chose Glinds and they now serve Zeno. Perhaps this Super Majin was selfless, made the entire fucking thing and let somebody else rule over it.
If it wasn't for the ears we would be definitely thinking they are related, or that Rymus is Zeno's real name... and he is benjamin buttoning or something, or his reencarnation.

I bet there's another lore-filled episode waiting for us at the Glind planet. hopefully we'll learn more about this. Although, Zeno should not be mentioned, Shin doesn't know about him. He seems to be the most well-kept secret in the multiverse.

I think Toriyama was perhaps keenly aware than Shin shouldn't know of Zeno and Beerus at this point in time yet, which is why the lore is tip toeing around it while still making winks and nods to Super.

[Smilodon]

I don't think Rymus and Zen'oh are the supreme entity.

First. The supreme entity has to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresence in just one being.

Zen'oh is just omnipotent. Zuno is omniscient and somebody else could be the omnipresence one (or not)

Rymus was the creator of the 18 universes. So, Zen chan came after that to rule everything. So, he is below Rymus. And Rymus is very close to Zen'oh. Probably he is just a suprem Kaioshin.

Rymus > Zen'oh

But Rymus probably (not sure on this) didn't created the Makai realm. Someone else created and Rymus came after this one. He just expanded the realm. So, this guy (I bet it's Tory Bot) is above everyone.
Now we have:

? > Rymus > Zen'oh

And this guy created the Makai, the first beings and he has to be everything in one.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, bringing up Zeno now would disrupt the entire revival, and we know Shin is wildly unaware of many, many things. Not that we shouldn’t buy what he is saying, but the missing elements are justified by his own ignorance.

I believe Toyo eventually will link both deities together, DBS or a new movie are the only products that could do so. I suspect the manga isn't coming back yet because it might involve some Daima-related elements they prefer to address once Daima is over.

Also, yes, we know the origin of the multiverse, but we don't know the origin of the Daimakai. We do not know if there is something else beyond the multiverse... Zeno lives in a place that seems detached from the multiverse, you can see each universe floating around, it doesn't seem to be part of the multiverse but more like where the multiverse is stored at. I'm not sure Rymus created THAT place.

It'll be funny to come back to this thread in 3 years and see how mistaken we all were. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being Tori-Bot the supreme deity of every single realm.

[Smilodon]

Yeah, bringing up Zeno now would disrupt the entire revival, and we know Shin is wildly unaware of many, many things. Not that we shouldn’t buy what he is saying, but the missing elements are justified by his own ignorance.

I believe Toyo eventually will link both deities together, DBS or a new movie are the only products that could do so. I suspect the manga isn't coming back yet because it might involve some Daima-related elements they prefer to address once Daima is over.

Also, yes, we know the origin of the multiverse, but we don't know the origin of the Daimakai. We do not know if there is something else beyond the multiverse... Zeno lives in a place that seems detached from the multiverse, you can see each universe floating around, it doesn't seem to be part of the multiverse but more like where the multiverse is stored at. I'm not sure Rymus created THAT place.

It'll be funny to come back to this thread in 3 years and see how mistaken we all were. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being Tori-Bot the supreme deity of every single realm.

Another thing.
Shin said that Rymus had chosen the Kaioshins and they showed the Kaioshins from super.
But... The elder kaioshin was from 14 generations behind him.
It's a lot of time. He was sealed in Kai planet by Beerus, so... In that time Rymus had already created everything outside Makai.

Doesn't fit well, but we have this.

[Mr Baggins]

Shin not knowing Zeno's identity is an anime-only thing. In the manga, he's shown immediately bowing without question the moment Zeno first appears.

It never made one iota of sense that all the gods except Nahare would know who he is. I think we can safely disregard that.

[Grimlock]

First. The supreme entity has to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresence in just one being.

It does not. Having just one god at the top who is "omni-something" is rooted in monotheism. If we look at polytheist mythologies, they often have many supreme entities (Greek: the Primordials. Egyptian: the Ogdoad and the Ennead. Japanese: the Kotoamatsukami, etc) and I have never come across them being described as "omni-something", it would contradict the existence of the other gods in and of itself. We should always remember that Dragon Ball is an Eastern product, and as such, is much more prone to be influenced by the Eastern culture. Since Dragon Ball is decidedly polytheist, having one singular, "omni-something" being is extremely unlikely (borderline impossible, I would say).

If Toribot is ever acknowledged in-universe (hopefully it is), it would be similar to the trio of gods who originated everything in Japan.

[Smilodon]

First. The supreme entity has to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresence in just one being.

It does not. Having just one god at the top who is "omni-something" is rooted in monotheism. If we look at polytheist mythologies, they often have many supreme entities (Greek: the Primordials. Egyptian: the Ogdoad and the Ennead. Japanese: the Kotoamatsukami, etc) and I have never come across them being described as "omni-something", it would contradict the existence of the other gods in and of itself. We should always remember that Dragon Ball is an Eastern product, and as such, is much more prone to be influenced by the Eastern culture. Since Dragon Ball is decidedly polytheist, having one singular, "omni-something" being is extremely unlikely (borderline impossible, I would say).

If Toribot is ever acknowledged in-universe (hopefully it is), it would be similar to the trio of gods who originated everything in Japan.

Makes sense. But after Toriyama's death, I think Toyotaro will put him (Toribot) as the supreme of all and an unique being. Like god of all gods.

[Grimlock]

Well, following the structure of hierarchy of Kaios and Kaioshins, it's possible that someone else would put Toribot above Zeno and Rymus. Although, if I were to guess, I think if Toriyama was to ever acknowledge himself as such, he would have followed the idea of a "shared ruling" between him, Zeno and Rymus. Influenced by the very first three gods from the Japanese mythology.

Spoiler:

Because this is another of my favorite subjects to discuss, I got excited and wrote more, but you shouldn't concern yourself with this part, unless you also enjoy talking about gods, creation and whatnot!

The idea of One Above All (pun intended) is a very Western one. Like I exemplified before, many cultures didn't have that. It either started with one or with multiple ones at the same time. In the former's case, however, like in Greece for example, it doesn't mean that Chaos is above every other god because it was the first. In cases where there is one being before all, they are generally seen more as a "leader" than an outright "boss" (hence the difference between a "leader" and a "boss", the latter is above you in the hierarchy, while the former is in the same "tier" as you).

I know it is very difficult to Westerners to understand this, and I fully believe that it is just as weird for Easterners to understand the idea of a single being above everyone else. But it is what it is.

The position of "highest authority" can and is oftenly occupied by more than one entity in many societies, including Eastern ones. So it shouldn't surprise anyone that Dragon Ball is governed by Zeno, Rymus and possibly Toribot. Even if Toribot is revealed to be the leader of the bunch, it wouldn't necessarily mean he's the sole supreme god, he would share that title with Zeno and Rymus (oh, and each existence doesn't contradict the other, as some people are predictably saying out there).

I just realized that we just got another god (besides Kaioshin of Time) who isn't affected by timelines and doesn't have counterparts. As Rymus predates the Multiverse, there's only one of him (but that's also true for every being in the Demon Realm, since there's only one of that and is a separated realm altogether). It's still very odd that Zeno is not a multiversal singularity when you think about it.

[Thani]

I just realized that we just got another god (besides Kaioshin of Time) who isn't affected by timelines and doesn't have counterparts. As Rymus predates the Multiverse, there's only one of him (but that's also true for every being in the Demon Realm, since there's only one of that and is a separated realm altogether). It's still very odd that Zeno is not a multiversal singularity when you think about it.

You know what's the weirdest part about this tidbit of lore? People from the Demon Realm are nor part of the multiverse... but that would include Dabra and Buu. And we know they existed in Trunks' timeline.

So it is likely that there is a demon realm for every other timeline too.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Yeah, the Demon Realm is the start of each timeline's multiverse, but it itself is not outside of the flow of time.

[Dbzfan94]

So I’m a little late to these discussions, and I’m sure this has been said a million times already, but I still wanna put it out there.

First things first I’m really enjoying the show so far, albeit the pacing is a little too slow but I guess it makes sense for a short series. And while I am really liking some of this new lore it feels like it’s been too much? Every episode has been lots of exposition or some sort of lore change/update.

On that note though it really seems like they’re doubling down on Super’s “There’s only one Supreme Kai per universe” they haven’t really acknowledged Shin’s friends/coworkers lol that died during Buu’s rampage and that there used to be 5

[Grimlock]

You know what's the weirdest part about this tidbit of lore? People from the Demon Realm are nor part of the multiverse... but that would include Dabra and Buu. And we know they existed in Trunks' timeline.

So it is likely that there is a demon realm for every other timeline too.

Holy sweet father of Dende, you are right! As I was writing that post, my mindset was that since they predate the Multiverse, then they obviously predate time itself within the Multiverse. As such, they cannot have counterparts. But I had completely forgotten about the future timeline and that that's already established anyway, through Dabura and Majin Buu.

Needless to say, this should not have been the case, so it is the weirdest that, well, it is. Damn, even Rymus is affected by timelines, then. We are back to only Kaioshin of Time being unique, who, I might add, is below them in the hierarchy.

[Thani]

You know what's the weirdest part about this tidbit of lore? People from the Demon Realm are nor part of the multiverse... but that would include Dabra and Buu. And we know they existed in Trunks' timeline.

So it is likely that there is a demon realm for every other timeline too.

Holy sweet father of Dende, you are right! As I was writing that post, my mindset was that since they predate the Multiverse, then they obviously predate time itself within the Multiverse. As such, they cannot have counterparts. But I had completely forgotten about the future timeline and that that's already established anyway, through Dabura and Majin Buu.

Needless to say, this should not have been the case, so it is the weirdest that, well, it is. Damn, even Rymus is affected by timelines, then. We are back to only Kaioshin of Time being unique, who, I might add, is below them in the hierarchy.

You know what really got me thinking now? We know the afterlife is unique to every universe, like, every universe has it's own Other World and such. So... demons have souls, since we've seen King Enma mention sending Dabra to Heaven. But the demon realm predates the multiverse and is separate from it.

What happens to demons' souls after they die in the demon realm, or before Rymus created the multiverse, then?

[Grimlock]

You know what really got me thinking now? We know the afterlife is unique to every universe, like, every universe has it's own Other World and such. So... demons have souls, since we've seen King Enma mention sending Dabra to Heaven. But the demon realm predates the multiverse and is separate from it.

What happens to demons' souls after they die in the demon realm, or before Rymus created the multiverse, then?

Anybody's guess. When we finally got an answer to the Multiverse origin, multiple other questions pop up...

Although, I think it's easier if we simply say that the Demon Realm is a Universe on its own, an unconventional, smaller one separated from the others and only accessible through a "gateway" (Warp). In that sense, then maybe it's possible that they also have their own afterlife.

[Hulk10]

Well this episode threw off the timeline.............. No I'm confused........