How many forms could be cut?
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How many forms could be cut?
Transformation hype and bloat are a core part of Dragon Ball nowadays. But I was wondering how many of the transformations could be axed while keeping the story essentially the same. A lot of fans claim the series has too many forms nowadays, but truthfully you could have always said this about the original series too.
I just wonder how many transformations actually move the story along on top of selling toys, and how many are just there to sell toys exclusively.
Oozaru: I think this one is an obvious keep. It's an essential part of various arcs and obviously a key trait of Saiya biology.
Super Saiyan: As well, the most iconic transformation has to be kept. I believe most of the series could probably be written with Super Saiyan as the ultimate form. Toriyama himself argued all the other forms were just enhancements of Super Saiyan.
Grades 2&3: I think these ones have to be kept, purely because of how well they do their job, which is to showcase how Vegeta and Trunks were on the wrong track of ascending past Super Saiyan. They fit their narrative purpose well.
Super Saiyan 2: I think this one can be cut, or reduced rather to Gohan's own unique hybrid variant of Super Saiyan. I don't think the form is plot significant or thematically meaningful enough for anybody else. The Boo arc works just as fine if Goku and Vegeta can only use regular Super Saiyan and Gohan can't use his version of SS due to slacking off.
Super Saiyan 3: Again, another form that can be cut. It looks cool but doesn't really achieve anything and it's not very thematically profound. If the design is to be kept, I think it works best again as a unique, Super Saiyan fusion-exclusive variant for Gotenks.
Ultimate: Mixed feelings on this one, because in this revised DB, SS2 would already work as Gohan's own unique form. I like the concept of the form, of drawing out all your potential to your base state so you don't rely on transformations, so maybe it can be reworked for somebody else? Gohan never had much of an issue with transformation fatigue, so it's not like the form fits him better than anyone else necessarily. Actually, maybe Future Trunks could get it in the Zamasu arc.
Fusions: No issue with keeping fusions. My only issue is that they're overpowered and remove stakes since they can be used at any time but aren't, because reasons (unless an arc like the Moro arc specifically answers that question, it's never brought up). But that has nothing to do necessarily with fusion as a concept.
Super Saiyan God & Blue: I think "Super Saiyan with God ki" can just be that. You can power-up Goku & co with divine Ki without altering their appearance.
Super Saiyan Rage: Easy cut. I don't think anyone likes this form. It's not in the manga Super either, so it's unnecessary.
Super Saiyan Rosé: This, on the other hand, can be kept. Again, unique SS variant for Goku Black, this one is actually explained this way in the series too.
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution: Because SSB is cut, this one will be cut too. But I think the idea of Vegeta finding his own path to power is done better through Ultra Ego regardless.
UI Sign & MUI: I'd toy with the idea of UI being just a technique Goku can use while in his ultimate form, which would be just Super Saiyan, but if we are to keep the form, I think it's not as unnecessary as all the others. Still, I think only one version is enough. Goku can use the technique in conjunction with base, SS, and then MUI is its own form.
UE: Vegeta's counterpart to MUI, should be kept.
Orange Piccolo: Ilike this one too conceptually, just wish it had a bit more explanation and build up.
Beast: I think this one can be kept if only because now it would work better as a further evolution to Gohan's SS rather than being incoherent with what the Ultimate state was supposed to be.
Ikari state: Harnessing the power of the Oozaru without transforming is a neat enough concept, but I wish it was introduced earlier.
Berserker/Legendary/SS Full Power: All fine conceptually, as THE legendary Super Saiyan who brought himself to extinction.
Golden Oozaru & Super Saiyan 4: Also think these ones more than justify their existence with their creativity, but SS4 would have to be renamed to work in this new setup.
I just wonder how many transformations actually move the story along on top of selling toys, and how many are just there to sell toys exclusively.
Oozaru: I think this one is an obvious keep. It's an essential part of various arcs and obviously a key trait of Saiya biology.
Super Saiyan: As well, the most iconic transformation has to be kept. I believe most of the series could probably be written with Super Saiyan as the ultimate form. Toriyama himself argued all the other forms were just enhancements of Super Saiyan.
Grades 2&3: I think these ones have to be kept, purely because of how well they do their job, which is to showcase how Vegeta and Trunks were on the wrong track of ascending past Super Saiyan. They fit their narrative purpose well.
Super Saiyan 2: I think this one can be cut, or reduced rather to Gohan's own unique hybrid variant of Super Saiyan. I don't think the form is plot significant or thematically meaningful enough for anybody else. The Boo arc works just as fine if Goku and Vegeta can only use regular Super Saiyan and Gohan can't use his version of SS due to slacking off.
Super Saiyan 3: Again, another form that can be cut. It looks cool but doesn't really achieve anything and it's not very thematically profound. If the design is to be kept, I think it works best again as a unique, Super Saiyan fusion-exclusive variant for Gotenks.
Ultimate: Mixed feelings on this one, because in this revised DB, SS2 would already work as Gohan's own unique form. I like the concept of the form, of drawing out all your potential to your base state so you don't rely on transformations, so maybe it can be reworked for somebody else? Gohan never had much of an issue with transformation fatigue, so it's not like the form fits him better than anyone else necessarily. Actually, maybe Future Trunks could get it in the Zamasu arc.
Fusions: No issue with keeping fusions. My only issue is that they're overpowered and remove stakes since they can be used at any time but aren't, because reasons (unless an arc like the Moro arc specifically answers that question, it's never brought up). But that has nothing to do necessarily with fusion as a concept.
Super Saiyan God & Blue: I think "Super Saiyan with God ki" can just be that. You can power-up Goku & co with divine Ki without altering their appearance.
Super Saiyan Rage: Easy cut. I don't think anyone likes this form. It's not in the manga Super either, so it's unnecessary.
Super Saiyan Rosé: This, on the other hand, can be kept. Again, unique SS variant for Goku Black, this one is actually explained this way in the series too.
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution: Because SSB is cut, this one will be cut too. But I think the idea of Vegeta finding his own path to power is done better through Ultra Ego regardless.
UI Sign & MUI: I'd toy with the idea of UI being just a technique Goku can use while in his ultimate form, which would be just Super Saiyan, but if we are to keep the form, I think it's not as unnecessary as all the others. Still, I think only one version is enough. Goku can use the technique in conjunction with base, SS, and then MUI is its own form.
UE: Vegeta's counterpart to MUI, should be kept.
Orange Piccolo: Ilike this one too conceptually, just wish it had a bit more explanation and build up.
Beast: I think this one can be kept if only because now it would work better as a further evolution to Gohan's SS rather than being incoherent with what the Ultimate state was supposed to be.
Ikari state: Harnessing the power of the Oozaru without transforming is a neat enough concept, but I wish it was introduced earlier.
Berserker/Legendary/SS Full Power: All fine conceptually, as THE legendary Super Saiyan who brought himself to extinction.
Golden Oozaru & Super Saiyan 4: Also think these ones more than justify their existence with their creativity, but SS4 would have to be renamed to work in this new setup.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
I don't think we need to remove the forms entirely, so much as fold them into the base form as the series moves along. As bad as Fukkatsu no F is, Gokuu only having the one transformation structually makes his fight with Freeza better.
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Re: How many forms could be cut?
From the Original, all these hyper-muscular "Grade" variants could be removed and nothing of value would change. SSJ2 could also be restricted to Gohan and again nothing of value would change. Or SSJ2 and SSJ3 could be incorporated into one form since the only relevance of SSJ3 in the Buu saga is allowing Goku to challenge Majin Buu by himself.
From Super, None. Every single form in Super serves a major story purpose. You can't remove any of them without significantly rewriting the arcs first.
From Super, None. Every single form in Super serves a major story purpose. You can't remove any of them without significantly rewriting the arcs first.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with ToyotaroAt his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
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Re: How many forms could be cut?
Without SSJ, Goku wouldn't be able to beat Freeza.SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 8:58 am From the Original, all these hyper-muscular "Grade" variants could be removed and nothing of value would change. SSJ2 could also be restricted to Gohan and again nothing of value would change. Or SSJ2 and SSJ3 could be incorporated into one form since the only relevance of SSJ3 in the Buu saga is allowing Goku to challenge Majin Buu by himself.
From Super, None. Every single form in Super serves a major story purpose. You can't remove any of them without significantly rewriting the arcs first.
Without SSJ, Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat Android 19.
Without SSJ Grade 2 and SSJ Grade 3, there would be no Cell Game.
Without SSJ2, Gohan wouldn't be able to beat Cell and Cell Jrs.
Without SSJ3, Super Boo absorbing Gotenks wouldn't be enough to over power Gohan.
Super Saiyan and its higher version served a purpose. Plus without SSJ1, there would be no SSB since that is SSG + SSJ.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
SS2 & SS3: I think both forms are pivotal. SS2 represents Gohan’s emotional breakthrough against Cell and remains a powerful evolution for others like Vegeta. SS3, while less efficient, provides iconic moments, like Goku’s confrontation with Boo, highlighting the risks of overexertion for raw power.
Ultimate: I think Gohan’s arc would have benefited more from the Ikari state or Beast, emphasizing his untapped rage and hybrid Saiyan potential as his unique path.
SSGod & SSBlue & Ultra Instinct: I think visual changes communicate better distinct energy types, but I would reframe them as variations, not strict upgrades. For instance, SSGod could emphasize agility, while SSBlue leans on stability and endurance, both equal in power but situationally advantageous. By positioning UI as a skill that balances both agility and strength, not a power boost, Goku’s progression would feel more about mastery than raw strength. This would align better with Dragon Ball’s themes of growth and adaptation, while still visually signaling his evolution.
Golden Oozaru & SS4 & Super Saiyan Full Power: These forms could have been expanded as a separate evolutionary tree for Saiyans focused on primal power and control, rivaling divine paths like God Ki or Ultra Instinct.
Ultimate: I think Gohan’s arc would have benefited more from the Ikari state or Beast, emphasizing his untapped rage and hybrid Saiyan potential as his unique path.
SSGod & SSBlue & Ultra Instinct: I think visual changes communicate better distinct energy types, but I would reframe them as variations, not strict upgrades. For instance, SSGod could emphasize agility, while SSBlue leans on stability and endurance, both equal in power but situationally advantageous. By positioning UI as a skill that balances both agility and strength, not a power boost, Goku’s progression would feel more about mastery than raw strength. This would align better with Dragon Ball’s themes of growth and adaptation, while still visually signaling his evolution.
Golden Oozaru & SS4 & Super Saiyan Full Power: These forms could have been expanded as a separate evolutionary tree for Saiyans focused on primal power and control, rivaling divine paths like God Ki or Ultra Instinct.
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Re: How many forms could be cut?
Every single transformation except SSJ1 and SSJ2 can easily be discarded from the original manga.
There's no way they could've beaten Freeza and Super Perfect Cell without them, but all the others accomplished exactly nothing.
There's no way they could've beaten Freeza and Super Perfect Cell without them, but all the others accomplished exactly nothing.
Personal Dragon Ball Arc Ranking:
Spoiler:
Re: How many forms could be cut?
Eh I disagree. Super Saiyan 3 gave a believable reason why Goku as Super Saiyan 2 was on par with Majin Vegeta but could later hold off the vastly stronger Majin Boo (setting aside the obvious can of worms opened when Goku revealed he could have easily taken care of Vegeta before Boo was freed). It also made it more easy to buy the Saiyan Rugrats could get quickly get to a point they could keep up with Super BooAliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 1:21 pm Every single transformation except SSJ1 and SSJ2 can easily be discarded from the original manga.
There's no way they could've beaten Freeza and Super Perfect Cell without them, but all the others accomplished exactly nothing.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
For me there are some forms that could be easily thrown out and no much would have changed.
For the ones I would keep it's:
Oozaru - for obvious reasons
SSJ - for obvious reasons
Grade 2, 3 and 4 I would keep - one of the main motive of this arc is go beyond Super Saiyan... Showing various versions of these transformations and the path the hero take to achieve it is pretty interesting. Also grade 3 was a great way of showing Goku's intelligence and experience and Trunks nativity.
SSJ2 is a must have for me. It is not only a culmination of Gohans journey but a culmination of the whole beyond SSJ thing. During whole saga, the heroes wanted to achieve it and at last Gohan's the one to do it. It makes sense story wise.
SSJGod, UI are THE transformations of Super which I feel should be there.
Along with Broly's SSJ form.
Now for the forms which I could see going...
SSJ3 - besides looking cool as heck, I think it accomplished nothing.
While Namek saga was based on achieving SSJ, Android saga was about unlocking level beyond SSJ, Buu could just be focused on fusion and unlocking your potential without transformations (which Gohan did).
Adding SSJ3 just for transformations sakes, does nothing for the story and does not give it justice.
SSJBlue - It is sometimes so much clear they made Blue for marketing. It's SSJ all over again without any new design features but an easy twist on using god ki. We didn't really have an on screen first time transformation moment nor any particular explanation of how they did get the form.
While I like the blue colour, I feel like SSJGod could be used for all Super and be it's thing. Mastering the form could be the paths for Goku and Vegeta.
SSJRage - the manga gave Trunks a good use and story without random transformations which we don't understand and I am okay with that.
Blue Evolution - Everything from the forms look to how it was achieved shouts forced and unnatural to me. This is a very lazy form and I feel nothing about it. It also feels so redundant, giving Vegeta gets an Ultra Ego not so long after.
Ultimate "Form" - I dislike how Super treats ultimate Gohan as another form. In Buu saga there wasn't even an ultimate form. We just had "base" Gohan with unlocked potential. The whole point of this was so that old Kai said that transformations aren't the best of options. Now Ultimate Gohan was turned into something it was meant to mock.
Gohan Beast - I am sorry, I know this is brand new and shiny but it just doesn't work on so many levels... For one thing it is just as lazy as Blue Evolution for me, even more. The way Gohan achieved it, is forced, boring and a knock off of Cell Saga. Nostalgia was probably the point but it wasn't nostalgia done right.
Also this again makes ultimate Gohan look like another step in transformations which I dislike.
I also don't like how in the movie nothing is explained about it.
I think I would rather have Gohan be in his "base" and unlocking something other like UI or god ki usage. Just something less... Fan service.
For the ones I would keep it's:
Oozaru - for obvious reasons
SSJ - for obvious reasons
Grade 2, 3 and 4 I would keep - one of the main motive of this arc is go beyond Super Saiyan... Showing various versions of these transformations and the path the hero take to achieve it is pretty interesting. Also grade 3 was a great way of showing Goku's intelligence and experience and Trunks nativity.
SSJ2 is a must have for me. It is not only a culmination of Gohans journey but a culmination of the whole beyond SSJ thing. During whole saga, the heroes wanted to achieve it and at last Gohan's the one to do it. It makes sense story wise.
SSJGod, UI are THE transformations of Super which I feel should be there.
Along with Broly's SSJ form.
Now for the forms which I could see going...
SSJ3 - besides looking cool as heck, I think it accomplished nothing.
While Namek saga was based on achieving SSJ, Android saga was about unlocking level beyond SSJ, Buu could just be focused on fusion and unlocking your potential without transformations (which Gohan did).
Adding SSJ3 just for transformations sakes, does nothing for the story and does not give it justice.
SSJBlue - It is sometimes so much clear they made Blue for marketing. It's SSJ all over again without any new design features but an easy twist on using god ki. We didn't really have an on screen first time transformation moment nor any particular explanation of how they did get the form.
While I like the blue colour, I feel like SSJGod could be used for all Super and be it's thing. Mastering the form could be the paths for Goku and Vegeta.
SSJRage - the manga gave Trunks a good use and story without random transformations which we don't understand and I am okay with that.
Blue Evolution - Everything from the forms look to how it was achieved shouts forced and unnatural to me. This is a very lazy form and I feel nothing about it. It also feels so redundant, giving Vegeta gets an Ultra Ego not so long after.
Ultimate "Form" - I dislike how Super treats ultimate Gohan as another form. In Buu saga there wasn't even an ultimate form. We just had "base" Gohan with unlocked potential. The whole point of this was so that old Kai said that transformations aren't the best of options. Now Ultimate Gohan was turned into something it was meant to mock.
Gohan Beast - I am sorry, I know this is brand new and shiny but it just doesn't work on so many levels... For one thing it is just as lazy as Blue Evolution for me, even more. The way Gohan achieved it, is forced, boring and a knock off of Cell Saga. Nostalgia was probably the point but it wasn't nostalgia done right.
Also this again makes ultimate Gohan look like another step in transformations which I dislike.
I also don't like how in the movie nothing is explained about it.
I think I would rather have Gohan be in his "base" and unlocking something other like UI or god ki usage. Just something less... Fan service.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
I wouldn't get rid of anything entirely from the original DB-Z-GT run. Everything served a purpose, even temporary in-between-ish things like the bulky "Grade" forms. The only major form-related changes I would make is not giving SS3 to Gotenks during the Boo arc, and giving Golden Ape and Super Saiyan 4 some proper build-up during and prior to the Baby arc. Also, like some others have touched on, Gohan's "Ultimate" state shouldn't be treated as an on-off transformation like the rest of these in the first place, and I sure don't count it as one, so that's not really on the chopping block for me.
That all said, Super is a very, very different story. Transformation bloat out the wazoo, most of them samey, shameless color-swaps that blatantly only exist for cynical merchandising purposes. I've talked about this stuff in various "how would you rewrite Super" conversations here and there, and have tons of notes that I might turn into a rewrite fanfic one day if I ever manage to revive and finish GTR first. But to summarize what I'd do with each form...
That all said, Super is a very, very different story. Transformation bloat out the wazoo, most of them samey, shameless color-swaps that blatantly only exist for cynical merchandising purposes. I've talked about this stuff in various "how would you rewrite Super" conversations here and there, and have tons of notes that I might turn into a rewrite fanfic one day if I ever manage to revive and finish GTR first. But to summarize what I'd do with each form...
- SS God: Keep. Revamp it as the strongest god-form, but strictly temporary and ritual-only.
- Golden Freeza: Keep. Useful for Freeza to have if he must be a (temporarily) recurring antagonist, and Coola already established precedent for their clan having power-boosting forms. It'd get a redesign though.
- SS Blue: Keep. Redesign it, make it Goku and Vegeta's new "standard" form and a lower-level substitute for SS God. Ultra Instinct and Ego would eventually evolve into existence as advanced "modes" of SSB instead of separate forms.
- SS Rosé: Axed, easily. With the soul/mind of a Kaioshin, Zamas doesn't need to rely on a transformation to maximize his god-ki usage, even when hijacking someone else's body. So he remains truly "Goku Black" (i.e. base form) the whole time.
- SS Rage: Axed. I don't even really see this as a "form" anyway, but whatever. Kinda-sorta replaced with Trunks getting his turn to become a Super Saiyan God. I like the "SS2+" thing Toyotaro gave Trunks in the manga though, I'd keep that.
- SS Blue Evolved: Axed. Likewise replaced in the Tournament of Power with Vegeta's turn to use Super Saiyan God. Totally irrelevant after that.
- Ultra Instinct: Axed, kinda. Replaced with "SSB Ultra Instinct Mode" as mentioned above, though I might have Goku still do something akin to the "Omen" version against Geran.
- Ultra Ego: Axed, replaced with "SSB Ultra Ego Mode" like with UI for Goku. I wouldn't even adapt the manga-original arcs to begin with, but my own post-ToP "Overthrow The Omni-King" finale arc would still give Vegeta the opportunity for this.
- Beast Gohan: Axed with extreme prejudice. Seriously, fuck this noise. I wouldn't adapt Super Hero anyway.
- Orange Piccolo: Axed. Ditto what I said for Gohan, more or less.
- Black Freeza: Axed. Terrible. Plus even if I was going to adapt the post-ToP manga arcs, Freeza wouldn't still be around anyway.
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Re: How many forms could be cut?
To add to this: Since the Buu arc was the last arc of the manga, I'd argue that within that context, Super Saiyan 3's thematic relevance is also in representing a plateau of sorts for power. For Goku specifically, it represents him at his zenith. That young children like Goten and Trunks can reach it through fusion speaks to the kids' potential and the power of fusion. That the chapter that introduces it is called "The Limit! Super Saiyan 3" hints at this, and it ties into the overexertion element- Being at the peak requires mastery, and Goku makes a point to note that he's not used to the form yet when he reveals it, hinting at the issues with it that become apparent later due to said lack of mastery.Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:20 pm SS2 & SS3: I think both forms are pivotal. SS2 represents Gohan’s emotional breakthrough against Cell and remains a powerful evolution for others like Vegeta. SS3, while less efficient, provides iconic moments, like Goku’s confrontation with Boo, highlighting the risks of overexertion for raw power.
Of course, this kinda falls flat when you take into account all the stuff that came after the end of the manga.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
I think I can divide them into transformations that were not needed to begin with and transformations that I would have ditched at a certain point. I would keep most forms, but...
Transformations that were never needed:
- Trunks' rage form: just him being enraged without being a mysterious, unexplained form would have been enough in the very same scenes.
- Vegeta's Evolved Super Saiyan Blue: it didn't look that different from the Super Saiyan Blue and didn't bring much to the story. I guess it was made so that Vegeta has an equivalent "temporary power boost" of Goku's Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, but I think we could have done without it.
- Super Saiyan 4 : DBS Broly's human-ape enraged form has us covered in a more subtle way. It's an update, so the previous, visually less subtle version is not needed. We don't need much more than a bit of change in the eyes/hair color/shape to make it good, DBS understood that all along (although Vegeta's Evolved Super Saiyan Blue was TOO subtle a change)!
Discarded forms not used again in the story:
- Great Ape: No need to ever see it again beyond the Saiyan saga, it's outdated and visually unappealing.
- Super Saiyan Grade 2 & Grade 3: It sort of is the case already, but yeah, as soon as we find out about the true next level of Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan 2), there's no need for those. I like the fact that they are indeed used as obsolete forms only: Trunks tricks Vegeta with it when Vegeta says himself this form is outdated, and when Caulifla - who is still new to transformations - boasts about it, Goku is unimpressed and does consider it useless and outdated as well.
- Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3: as soon as Goku learns to trigger divine transformations at will, I would have made him never use those superior states of Super Saiyan, following the DBS Broly or Sparking Zero branch: Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue depending on the power he needs.
Back at the time of Resurrection 'F', I thought that Super Saiyan had been discarded and that now that he had absorbed God power according to Beerus, trying to trigger the regular Super Saiyan actually made it the much more powerful blue form. I was fine with that: never seeing the regular Super Saiyan again because it had turned blue due to the nature of his energy having been changed.
But with the continuation of Super, I quickly grew to accept that it's fine that he still has both mortal and divine energy inside and call for whichever one he needs, being able to just go regular Super Saiyan if not much power is needed.
Transformations that were never needed:
- Trunks' rage form: just him being enraged without being a mysterious, unexplained form would have been enough in the very same scenes.
- Vegeta's Evolved Super Saiyan Blue: it didn't look that different from the Super Saiyan Blue and didn't bring much to the story. I guess it was made so that Vegeta has an equivalent "temporary power boost" of Goku's Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, but I think we could have done without it.
- Super Saiyan 4 : DBS Broly's human-ape enraged form has us covered in a more subtle way. It's an update, so the previous, visually less subtle version is not needed. We don't need much more than a bit of change in the eyes/hair color/shape to make it good, DBS understood that all along (although Vegeta's Evolved Super Saiyan Blue was TOO subtle a change)!
Discarded forms not used again in the story:
- Great Ape: No need to ever see it again beyond the Saiyan saga, it's outdated and visually unappealing.
- Super Saiyan Grade 2 & Grade 3: It sort of is the case already, but yeah, as soon as we find out about the true next level of Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan 2), there's no need for those. I like the fact that they are indeed used as obsolete forms only: Trunks tricks Vegeta with it when Vegeta says himself this form is outdated, and when Caulifla - who is still new to transformations - boasts about it, Goku is unimpressed and does consider it useless and outdated as well.
- Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3: as soon as Goku learns to trigger divine transformations at will, I would have made him never use those superior states of Super Saiyan, following the DBS Broly or Sparking Zero branch: Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue depending on the power he needs.
Back at the time of Resurrection 'F', I thought that Super Saiyan had been discarded and that now that he had absorbed God power according to Beerus, trying to trigger the regular Super Saiyan actually made it the much more powerful blue form. I was fine with that: never seeing the regular Super Saiyan again because it had turned blue due to the nature of his energy having been changed.
But with the continuation of Super, I quickly grew to accept that it's fine that he still has both mortal and divine energy inside and call for whichever one he needs, being able to just go regular Super Saiyan if not much power is needed.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
The number of forms wouldn't have been such a problem if they'd been gradually fazed out of the story as the characters acquired new ones. Goku and Vegeta should have stopped using normal SSJ once they had achieved SSJ2 (and they kinda do in the Buu Saga, but everything that came after ignored this). Similarly, Super Saiyan God should have been a one-time thing and Blue should have been the only god form, the way everyone thought it was before the anime ToP.
The potara should have been cut entirely though; you lose nothing by having Goku and Vegeta do the fusion dance instead, and that was Toriyama's original plan anyways. It would have worked much better story-wise too: fusion wouldn't just be a waste of chapters but an actual important part of bringing Buu down by stripping him of his absorptions.
The potara should have been cut entirely though; you lose nothing by having Goku and Vegeta do the fusion dance instead, and that was Toriyama's original plan anyways. It would have worked much better story-wise too: fusion wouldn't just be a waste of chapters but an actual important part of bringing Buu down by stripping him of his absorptions.
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Re: How many forms could be cut?
Super Saiyan Rage and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved or whatever it’s called can definitely be cut. Even Sparking Zero apparently didn’t think they were worth counting as proper forms. I would add Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken to the list as well, even if it’s not technically a “transformation.” It’s just one of those things that Toei obviously included purely for fanservice.
As much as I don’t care for Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast, I will begrudgingly admit that I at least understand why they exist. Every movie since BoG has apparently been required to introduce some kind of new transformation for fans to lose their minds over. While I suppose the Broly movie technically didn’t introduce a new transformation outside of Ikari, it did officially “canonize” Gogeta, and gave him Super Saiyan Blue, which is essentially the same thing.
As much as I don’t care for Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast, I will begrudgingly admit that I at least understand why they exist. Every movie since BoG has apparently been required to introduce some kind of new transformation for fans to lose their minds over. While I suppose the Broly movie technically didn’t introduce a new transformation outside of Ikari, it did officially “canonize” Gogeta, and gave him Super Saiyan Blue, which is essentially the same thing.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
I know it's a movie. But super saiyan 3 did accomplish something or beat an opponent. Goku with super saiyan 3 beat Janemba's baby form.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
Everything except Great Ape, Super Saiyan 1, and Super Saiyan 2.
There is no reason for character specific transformations (such as Super Saiyan Rage for Trunks, Beast for Gohan, Broly's forms, Kale's forms). It's confusing.
Super Saiyan 3 was never "needed" in terms of story and has some serious flaws that make it impractical for battle.
And Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue (And Blue Evolved)? They honestly look tacky and like low effort recolors. It's also confusing that Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan going Super Saiyan with the power of a God, yet they can still go regular Super Saiyan after absorbing the power of a God. I actually preferred the original direction of Goku absorbing the power of a God into his base and would have preferred if he just focused on strengthening his base. Super Saiyan became so overused that Goku and Vegeta fighting in their base forms looked cool in Resurrection F.
Orange Piccolo was never needed because Piccolo could just get stronger and look the same.
Ultra Ego suffers from the same problem as Super Saiyan God and Blue. It's a recolor that looks tacky. It's the first time in many years that a licensed Dragon Ball thing looked like a goofy fan made transformation and made me cringe. Why can't Vegeta use the technique of Hakai in his normal form?
Similarly, why can't Goku use Ultra Instinct as a technique without transforming? The aftereffects and auras they add to ultra instinct make it incredibly nauseating for me to look at as someone with vertigo and epilepsy. There's been numerous times I can't tell what is happening on screen when Goku and Jiren are fighting. It should be a technique and not a transformation.
I think they've made things confusing with all the forms and have unnecessarily focused more on style over substance.
There is no reason for character specific transformations (such as Super Saiyan Rage for Trunks, Beast for Gohan, Broly's forms, Kale's forms). It's confusing.
Super Saiyan 3 was never "needed" in terms of story and has some serious flaws that make it impractical for battle.
And Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue (And Blue Evolved)? They honestly look tacky and like low effort recolors. It's also confusing that Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan going Super Saiyan with the power of a God, yet they can still go regular Super Saiyan after absorbing the power of a God. I actually preferred the original direction of Goku absorbing the power of a God into his base and would have preferred if he just focused on strengthening his base. Super Saiyan became so overused that Goku and Vegeta fighting in their base forms looked cool in Resurrection F.
Orange Piccolo was never needed because Piccolo could just get stronger and look the same.
Ultra Ego suffers from the same problem as Super Saiyan God and Blue. It's a recolor that looks tacky. It's the first time in many years that a licensed Dragon Ball thing looked like a goofy fan made transformation and made me cringe. Why can't Vegeta use the technique of Hakai in his normal form?
Similarly, why can't Goku use Ultra Instinct as a technique without transforming? The aftereffects and auras they add to ultra instinct make it incredibly nauseating for me to look at as someone with vertigo and epilepsy. There's been numerous times I can't tell what is happening on screen when Goku and Jiren are fighting. It should be a technique and not a transformation.
I think they've made things confusing with all the forms and have unnecessarily focused more on style over substance.
Re: How many forms could be cut?
Transformations exist for selling merchandise, but that doesn't mean that you can't just ascribe a meaning to them. The weak storytelling of Super Hero aside, one could simply come up with a better character meaning for the new unique transformations that Gohan and Piccolo gain in that story.
Characters getting their own unique transformations is honestly a major improvement over just giving everyone the same three transformations over-and-over. Like, it's been thirty years, Vegeta doesn't need a Super Saiyan 3 form. Give him an arc and then give him a unique transformation based on that character arc. As awful as the Moro and Granola arcs are, at least they did that much for Vegeta.
At the end of the day, transformations exist for showing a visual representation of a character's change. Giving those characters more unique forms lets them stick out better, too. This is why Vegetto being a Potara merger—rather than a Fusion—worked: he stood apart from Gotenks both visually and in terms of the character arcs those characters were facing.
Characters getting their own unique transformations is honestly a major improvement over just giving everyone the same three transformations over-and-over. Like, it's been thirty years, Vegeta doesn't need a Super Saiyan 3 form. Give him an arc and then give him a unique transformation based on that character arc. As awful as the Moro and Granola arcs are, at least they did that much for Vegeta.
At the end of the day, transformations exist for showing a visual representation of a character's change. Giving those characters more unique forms lets them stick out better, too. This is why Vegetto being a Potara merger—rather than a Fusion—worked: he stood apart from Gotenks both visually and in terms of the character arcs those characters were facing.
- sunsetshimmer
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Re: How many forms could be cut?
I will focus on saiyan forms (and related) here cause i guess that's the main problem with DB transformations overload.
Forms that barely make it for "would not cut" list:
-Golden Oozaru - It served purpose story wise, but could as well just be regular Oozaru. It's a cool form, but gets pass mostly because of Baby using it as his final form (which wouldn't make sense for regular Oozaru), rather than being actually needed for Goku's SSJ4 transformation.
-SSJ Blue - Most useless form in franchise. By the time it debuted it was already surpassed by Namek-level lizard after 4 months of doing push-ups. The only reason it gets a pass is a fact it was a main form used for majority of Super. But i never felt there was a need for it existing. Especially since it debuted VERY shortly after SSG that could serve as main form for majority if not all of Super until ToP. And it completely replaced SSG for entire Super until ToP.
Forms that served some purpose story-wise but could be cut:
-All the "SSJ Grade" forms - They were all just part of journey to getting SSJ2. When i think about DBZ at its absolutely worst, i have these forms in mind. Still, served some purpose story-wise, so not completely worthless.
-SFPS4 - Because of how it is no different in appearance from regular SSJ4 it was hard to even tell if Goku had it for the rest of fight with Omega or not. It should've been more like SFPS4 LB from SDBH.
-SSJ Rose - There was no need for Black to have his own version of SSJ or SSJ Blue, whatever it was supposed to copy. Baby Vegeta also had different colored SSJ form, but it was never given a different name cause there was no need for that. Having different color is fine (even though doesn't make sense at all in case of Black), the problem is calling it a separate form.
Completely worthless and unnecesary:
-SSJ3 - Let's be real. Despite being mostly Goku exclusive form (cause Gotenks) it did NOTHING. I like it, but it was completely pointless. Not to mention that both GT and Super introduced new forms that were both stronger and less demanding.
-SSJ Blue Evolution - I still have no idea WTF was that supposed to be and why would we ever need that
-SSJ Rage - Just like SSJBE it appeared completely out of *** and was completely not needed
-UI Omen - There was never need to to split that form into "almost UI" and "finally UI". Even though UI Omen was MUCH better overall and should just be final and only iteration of UI.
-Beast Gohan - Holy cow. It was enough we once again went from "useless Gohan" to "above all Gohan" with dumb writing and no development or hard work. Giving him the most random form you could imagine with ZERO explanation was far too much. One thing that was always in case for saiyans, hybrid or not, is that they couldn't just invent new transformations out of nowhere (like Frieza does). They could come up with some variations or upgrades like all the SSJ grade forms, SSJBE etc. but it's not like they ever just created entirely new form out of nowhere. All the forms were results of their genetics or, in case of Super, mixing it with god ki or being result of having god ki etc. Beast is 100% random form that didn't make any sense to exist. Instead of having that it would be better to just make Gohan go Ultimate again seeing Piccolo 'dying' instead of during fight with one of Gammas. Gohan randomly being so strong again made no sense in the first place anyway so why not just let him beat Cell Max as Ultimate?
-------------- edit ---------------
Concept is similar, but Ikari was still just Oozaru power in base form. Broly in this form was still weaker than in SSJ form, let alone hypothetical SSJ4. You can't replace SSJ4 with Ikari, cause SSJ4 is completely different level of power-up. Broly SSJ4 would be much stronger than Broly Ikari. And so Goku SSJ4 would be much stronger than Goku Ikari.
Ikari would be cool concept to introduce somewhere during Namek arc, before getting SSJ. But by the time GT happens it is completely worthless form for anyone except Pan since she's the only saiyan that can't reach much superior SSJ1 form.
If you mean appearance only, i mean making SSJ4 look like Ikari, which means slightly wild base form, then sure, it's an opinion even tough majority of fanbase would probably disagree due to SSJ4 being fan favorite. But the thing is: that wouldn't replace SSJ4. It would just make it look different. Nothing would be really cut.
Forms that barely make it for "would not cut" list:
-Golden Oozaru - It served purpose story wise, but could as well just be regular Oozaru. It's a cool form, but gets pass mostly because of Baby using it as his final form (which wouldn't make sense for regular Oozaru), rather than being actually needed for Goku's SSJ4 transformation.
-SSJ Blue - Most useless form in franchise. By the time it debuted it was already surpassed by Namek-level lizard after 4 months of doing push-ups. The only reason it gets a pass is a fact it was a main form used for majority of Super. But i never felt there was a need for it existing. Especially since it debuted VERY shortly after SSG that could serve as main form for majority if not all of Super until ToP. And it completely replaced SSG for entire Super until ToP.
Forms that served some purpose story-wise but could be cut:
-All the "SSJ Grade" forms - They were all just part of journey to getting SSJ2. When i think about DBZ at its absolutely worst, i have these forms in mind. Still, served some purpose story-wise, so not completely worthless.
-SFPS4 - Because of how it is no different in appearance from regular SSJ4 it was hard to even tell if Goku had it for the rest of fight with Omega or not. It should've been more like SFPS4 LB from SDBH.
-SSJ Rose - There was no need for Black to have his own version of SSJ or SSJ Blue, whatever it was supposed to copy. Baby Vegeta also had different colored SSJ form, but it was never given a different name cause there was no need for that. Having different color is fine (even though doesn't make sense at all in case of Black), the problem is calling it a separate form.
Completely worthless and unnecesary:
-SSJ3 - Let's be real. Despite being mostly Goku exclusive form (cause Gotenks) it did NOTHING. I like it, but it was completely pointless. Not to mention that both GT and Super introduced new forms that were both stronger and less demanding.
-SSJ Blue Evolution - I still have no idea WTF was that supposed to be and why would we ever need that
-SSJ Rage - Just like SSJBE it appeared completely out of *** and was completely not needed
-UI Omen - There was never need to to split that form into "almost UI" and "finally UI". Even though UI Omen was MUCH better overall and should just be final and only iteration of UI.
-Beast Gohan - Holy cow. It was enough we once again went from "useless Gohan" to "above all Gohan" with dumb writing and no development or hard work. Giving him the most random form you could imagine with ZERO explanation was far too much. One thing that was always in case for saiyans, hybrid or not, is that they couldn't just invent new transformations out of nowhere (like Frieza does). They could come up with some variations or upgrades like all the SSJ grade forms, SSJBE etc. but it's not like they ever just created entirely new form out of nowhere. All the forms were results of their genetics or, in case of Super, mixing it with god ki or being result of having god ki etc. Beast is 100% random form that didn't make any sense to exist. Instead of having that it would be better to just make Gohan go Ultimate again seeing Piccolo 'dying' instead of during fight with one of Gammas. Gohan randomly being so strong again made no sense in the first place anyway so why not just let him beat Cell Max as Ultimate?
-------------- edit ---------------
You are not the first person i see to make such argument or call Ikari a "canon" version of SSJ4. But that is completely wrong.Cold Skin wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:54 am - Super Saiyan 4 : DBS Broly's human-ape enraged form has us covered in a more subtle way. It's an update, so the previous, visually less subtle version is not needed. We don't need much more than a bit of change in the eyes/hair color/shape to make it good, DBS understood that all along (although Vegeta's Evolved Super Saiyan Blue was TOO subtle a change)!
Concept is similar, but Ikari was still just Oozaru power in base form. Broly in this form was still weaker than in SSJ form, let alone hypothetical SSJ4. You can't replace SSJ4 with Ikari, cause SSJ4 is completely different level of power-up. Broly SSJ4 would be much stronger than Broly Ikari. And so Goku SSJ4 would be much stronger than Goku Ikari.
Ikari would be cool concept to introduce somewhere during Namek arc, before getting SSJ. But by the time GT happens it is completely worthless form for anyone except Pan since she's the only saiyan that can't reach much superior SSJ1 form.
If you mean appearance only, i mean making SSJ4 look like Ikari, which means slightly wild base form, then sure, it's an opinion even tough majority of fanbase would probably disagree due to SSJ4 being fan favorite. But the thing is: that wouldn't replace SSJ4. It would just make it look different. Nothing would be really cut.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta
- KorgDTR2000
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Re: How many forms could be cut?
I never watched Super so I don't really know anything about the newer forms, but it sure seems like there's a lot of them. The stuff from the original series all has a place IMO.
SSJ3 is to me the most interesting of the lot. It's a mix of contradictions, epic and over-the-top but somehow useless and anti-climactic. On the surface, it is a nigh otherworldly power-up. In the manga its one of the few times Toriyama used screentone for lighting, implying it glowed brighter than any other form. In the anime, the power-up sequence is about as extreme as you can get. But the context of it is about as pedestrian and lame as it gets. It isn't revealed as a huge emotional moment like Goku going SSJ or Gohan going SSJ2, it's literally used as a time killer (in at least two ways, actually) just to stall. And the few other times Goku uses it it's completely ineffective, and basically rendered as a gag with Gotenks.
What gives?
What I love about SSJ3 is the fact that as a fan, a first-time viewer, you would expect Goku to pull some crazy new power-up out of his ass to save the day, like what happened in the previous two arcs. You would expect some epic moment of emotional devastation, leading to a crazy transformation sequence and a massive, Earth-shaking battle.
But it doesn't happen. What happens is, Goku pulls out his new transformation in the middle of the arc, with zero build-up, and despite the transformation itself being almost a self-parody of the series' excesses, he really accomplishes nothing with it. In fact it is shown to be way more trouble than its worth, to the point of basically being unusable.
I love this, because it basically says that Goku is just not going to be enough to beat this thing. If SSJ3 isn't enough to beat Boo, what possibly could?
SSJ3 is to me the most interesting of the lot. It's a mix of contradictions, epic and over-the-top but somehow useless and anti-climactic. On the surface, it is a nigh otherworldly power-up. In the manga its one of the few times Toriyama used screentone for lighting, implying it glowed brighter than any other form. In the anime, the power-up sequence is about as extreme as you can get. But the context of it is about as pedestrian and lame as it gets. It isn't revealed as a huge emotional moment like Goku going SSJ or Gohan going SSJ2, it's literally used as a time killer (in at least two ways, actually) just to stall. And the few other times Goku uses it it's completely ineffective, and basically rendered as a gag with Gotenks.
What gives?
What I love about SSJ3 is the fact that as a fan, a first-time viewer, you would expect Goku to pull some crazy new power-up out of his ass to save the day, like what happened in the previous two arcs. You would expect some epic moment of emotional devastation, leading to a crazy transformation sequence and a massive, Earth-shaking battle.
But it doesn't happen. What happens is, Goku pulls out his new transformation in the middle of the arc, with zero build-up, and despite the transformation itself being almost a self-parody of the series' excesses, he really accomplishes nothing with it. In fact it is shown to be way more trouble than its worth, to the point of basically being unusable.
I love this, because it basically says that Goku is just not going to be enough to beat this thing. If SSJ3 isn't enough to beat Boo, what possibly could?
- BootyCheeksJohnson
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Re: How many forms could be cut?
Grades 2 & 3 I don't think are necessarily needed. Also while Goku showing his fighting genius with acknowledging how bigger doesn't equal better and can be a hindrance on the body is cool in theory, it doesn't make much sense in the dragon world. There had been buffed out power ups featured before without slowing down other characters, most notably Muten Roshi's iconic buffed out state.