Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 12 - Official Discussion Thread

[hembro]

but when in the Trunks arc is it hinted at Vegeta could and didn't use SSJ3? is it just a throwaway line somewhere?

There's no hint. It's just that Trunks asks Vegeta to fight him using Super Saiyan 3 because Goku had shown to him earlier, so Trunks merely assumes Vegeta can also do it. That didn't confirm nor disconfirm whether Vegeta could or couldn't use Super Saiyan 3 at that point.

ahh okay, I do remember this vaguely. I'm probably just an idiot but my first glance over the thread I thought people were saying it was more directly insinuated he could but didn't. this could go either way. he could just be showing off he doesn't need it because he can skip it in the transformation hierarchy, or that he could and has grown more powerful.

[Saiya6Cit]

Seems like they went with an alternate Toryama concept art for SSJ3 Vegeta. Pretty cool.

Oh that was a good catch. I was thinking it was similar to Gohan's Beast transformation because of the way the hair looks but I guess the eyebrow situation makes it pretty clear that we are talking about SSJ3 level here. However, it is different, and may I say, more stable than Goku's.

Not a big fan of it, visually. I don't believe Vegeta looks well as a child in general. But I am ok with the way the character acts. Nothing will ever top Vegeta from DBZ. This one is decent. The way he fights truly feels like Vegeta, I could feel coming a couple of hits as it was very dynamic. If I had to rate the level of satisfaction this Vegeta from Daima gives me so far, I would say 86%. Safely. And going up. Hopefully.

The power ups from the dragon ball guardians were nice to watch. Colorful and fun.

Majin Duu part was very cool too. It was an episode full of action and some comedy, with surprises as well. Daima keeps delivering so far.

What should it be the rating for Dragon Ball Daima? I say PG, it stands from parental guidance. It means the parents are the best ones to judge at what age it is ok for their children to watch dragon ball and, more importantly, it requires both parents to sit down and watch the show along in order to explain the possible scenarios that might arise, in the way they consider it is better for their children's education. Daima is keeping things classy and family friendly so far, and I believe that is the best thing to do with our friend Goku as he is the face of the franchise that is as important as mickey mouse was for Disney in the early 90s.

[nato25]

The only problem I see with Vegeta SSJ3 is the Beerus fight. However I think the explanations people have given all work fine.

- He trained SSJ2 more than 3 like how Trunks did.
- In that moment against Beerus his rage just sent him into SSJ2.
- He knew he couldn't beat Beerus in a quick fight and knew Goku was also SSJ3 and had lost, so might as well try his luck in 2.

Take your pick honestly all those explanations are fine for me.

The Vegeta eating bug reference by Goku though, was that a reference to Vegeta eating the bugs with Nappa in his first appearance with the alternate hair colour? How would Goku know about that? Or am I forgetting a moment?

[Chuquita]

They shared the same mind when they were Vegetto; I'm willing to bet Goku knows some things about Vegeta as a result of fusion that Vegeta wouldn't have shared with him otherwise.

[nato25]

I suppose, I guess he also might have just learnt that saiyans eat bugs sometimes.

[StaticMania]

...I don't think Goku of all people would need to learn that.

[hembro]

They shared the same mind when they were Vegetto; I'm willing to bet Goku knows some things about Vegeta as a result of fusion that Vegeta wouldn't have shared with him otherwise.

that's something I've always kind of wondered about since I was a kid, but there really never has been a spot to address it. I don't know exactly what it would be, maybe a gag about how vegeta's one fear is something humorous and totally absurd for him like a mouse or something. but I've always thought it would be interesting to note they learned something about each other from that. the problem is I wouldn't even know what they would learn, because they're both open books in different ways. I've always thought it was a minor missed opportunity in the end of Boo when Vegeta has his little realization he didn't mention connecting some of the dots when they were one.

In any case I think that joke was more of a wink at the audience than any specific example Goku would have necessarily seen first hand. but Goku being Goku I could imagine when they fused one of the first things his half of the consciousness did was unintentionally find out what the most delicious or largest meal vegeta ever ate was, and it was probably some alien monster lol

[Issei189]

The Animators in this episode of Daima did a good job with SS2 Vegeta's visuals. He consistently had lightning bolts around his Aura and his hair was also a bit sharper in SS2 compared to his SS1

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[SHINOBI-03]

To me Super Saiyan 3 is like the Kaioken. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages so makes more sense to ignore it and focus on other forms more suitable for long-term combat.

[sangofe]

The episode had some really good looking scenes. I like Majin Duu. But I didn't laugh so much or felt many thrills. An average episode for me. To me, Daima really shines when it's about the humor and character interactions.

[jjgp1112]

I LOVE the dynamic between Majin Kuu and Duu. Clearly, they have the right combo of brains for the former and brawns for the latter, with Kuu being extremely good with intelligent matters and Duu just being very unpredictable and overwhelming to fight. With Dr. Arinsu now having the First Demon World's Dragon Ball, this will expedite things and let the Dragon Balls be brought together quickly.

Of course, that brings into questions Glorio's loyalties, as it's clear that while he may work for Arinsu, he's come to enjoy the company of Panzy, Goku, and Shin.

Also interesting how Neva enhanced Tamagami #2 to become even stronger than he'd presumably be ordinarily, superior to SS2 Vegeta even. So when that doesn't work, you use SS3! First time he's ever done it in canon! And hey, that means Future Trunks was actually correct in assessing that Vegeta could've shown off SS3 to him, retroactively. I imagine they'll probably retroactively justify its absence by the BoG story arc via Vegeta dismissing the form as useless beyond a quick and draining power boost.

I think Glorio has his own agenda and is using Arinsu as a means to an end, too. Triple agent!

[Soba Mask]

The Animators in this episode of Daima did a good job with SS2 Vegeta's visuals. He consistently had lightning bolts around his Aura and his hair was also a bit sharper in SS2 compared to his SS1

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Yeah it was really good. But I don't understand why they haven't used the same lightning for Goku

[Smilodon]

Good to see Vegeta being badass.
I hope Piccolo gets his time soon.

[Saturnine]

Well, having read the thread I agree it's possible, with some effort, to satisfactorily explain Vegeta having SSj3 and not using it again later - especially if they happen to make it a plot point later in Daima (doubtful, but could still happen).

What I like the most about Vegeta getting SSj3 though, is that it's another slap in the face of all those "Vegeta should know his place - that's character development" people. The writers of GT didn't have the guts to give a single character even one extra transformation level literally 15 years after the Buu arc and Vegeta was one of the prime logical candidates for one, meanwhile there are still tons of people who claim abandoning his rivalry with Goku made Vegeta a better character, I'll never understand that. Really glad the official media have been doubling down on the rivalry recently.

[Majin Buu]

Another great episode.

The Kraken gave up and left. I took it as more of a "Screw this, I'm out" reaction than an "I'm bored" reaction considering Vegeta just blew up the inside of his mouth. I think the Kraken was just quitting while he was ahead (I was half expecting Vegeta to blow his head off, which admittedly would have been tonally extreme for this show). The idea that he was all like "nope" after Vegeta got serious was funny.

Duu continues to be charmingly weird. And he's showing more Buu-like traits in his fighting, becoming all stretchy during the fight. I liked how he seemed to be giving up but actually did just need some chocolate to turn the tables, which Kuu understood. They continue to be a great duo. Duu definitely would have been screwed on the battle of wits challenge without Kuu's vital assist. Kuu is also Buu-like in being smarter than he looks. I love how these battle of wits challenges are kinda bullshit to the point that no ordinary person could do them just like how no ordinary person is strong enough to fight and defeat the Tamagamis to begin with. Very Toriyama. Arinsu not appreciating Kuu's assist sucks considering, again, that Duu couldn't have solved that on his own. Could create some tension between the two later, or not (I could see Kuu continuing to just do his thing regardless of Arinsu's approval).

I'm so glad I've been avoiding all the leaks about Daima because I was not expecting them to pull the trigger on giving Vegeta Super Saiyan 3. I never needed Vegeta to have it, but I don't mind that he does. It makes sense that he would have the potential to reach it just like Goku. It does look different from Goku's version and I like that, it makes his unique. And I like that it was needed as the trump card against the powered up Tamagami Number 2. Which by the way, I love that Neva did that and then was all like "You said they like to fight, I'm just giving him what he wants." He's growing on me. I also love how Goku was all like "aww, he can do that now too?" Vegeta was legit being badass once he turned the tables, this feels like the first time in Daima he's gotten to be cool like that, I love it. I noticed that he was doing the "I'm so awesome I only need my legs to fight you" thing Vegetto was doing against Buu. I guess Vegetto is more Vegeta than Goku after all.

I was half expecting Vegeta to need an assist for the battle of wits challenge and was half-expecting Piccolo to provide it since he's also smart, but Vegeta proved his reputation as one of the smart guys by figuring it out. Good job Vegeta. I like how Hybis was like "you're actually strong, here's a victory dance". This feels like Hybis warming up to Vegeta. I'm all for it. I also like how Vegeta couldn't eat the bug because he's too "refined" now. Goku's right Vegeta, your literal first appearance in Dragon Ball was you eating the arm of your dead opponent. It makes sense for a post Buu-arc Vegeta to be above that kind of brutality, but eating a bug isn't exactly in the same league as that so Vegeta is just being a wimp here and using a high-minded excuse for it. Great stuff.

The Tamagamis are all defeated and the Dragon Balls all collected between the Dragon Team and Team Arinsu, setting them up for an eventual clash. Gomah knows this and seems like he's gonna throw himself into the fray in some capacity. I'm still wondering what role, if any, Degasu will play in this. I like how he was like "Maybe Arinsu is keeping it safe for us" only for Gomah to be like "she's not generous enough to do anything like that." Gomah knows her well enough to not trust her. It looks like we're getting another exploration episode next. A more low-stakes episode will be a nice breather after this climatic two-parter.

Look, I get where Julie is coming from and in some cases I do agree. I do think a sticking point with me is that a lot of the storytelling is very pedestrian compared to other anime and more could be done on both the characterization and world building fronts. However--I kinda don't care. We're 12 episodes into this so I don't really expect Daima to move beyond what it's been giving us: It's what you see is what you get. And on that front I think Daima has been more than adequate. A fun way to waste a Friday afternoon. And while that may be a "backwards compliment," I've come to terms with what Dragon Ball means in my life. Basically I don't expect it to be anything more than simply "pleasant" because it can't be. Dragon Ball is an institution and the amount of nerd stench would occur if there was an actual storyline that changed the status quo would destroy the internet. So we get fun larks like Superhero, or pleasant anime like Daima.

And again that's not me being bitter. At the end of the day...DBZ ended and was able to end on its own terms. As far as I'm concerned, Super can go on being...Super and Daima is a fun spinoff, none of which affects how I feel about DBZ.

Agree with all of this. Could Daima be doing more on the storytelling front? Yes. Do I care that it isn't? Not really, because it has been entertaining me with the character interactions, lore, and gorgeously choreographed and animated fight scenes (The two-part Vegeta vs. Number 2 battle being no exception). I'm also still enjoying the atmospheric score. So far, Daima has been delivering on enough fronts for me that it hasn't left me wanting. At this point it's clear that it's not trying to be anything more than a fun romp through the Demon Realm, and they've been executing that to my satisfaction.

[nineko]

Still, I wonder what would happen if someone refuses to take the additional test after the fight. I mean, what if Vegeta or Kuu didn't stop when their opponents gave up, and they just kept on pummeling them until their eventual complete defeat / death (if they're even beings to begin with)? What would stop the challengers from forcibly take the dragon balls at that point? It's hard to believe that an eventual Beerus-class fighter would honor a "I gave up, but I have a test for you" instead of going all the way. I'm sure this can explained by implying that Neva added some safety trigger which destroys the dragon balls or something, but still, this needs to be explained on-screen instead of being left open to theories and speculations.

[Trouser]

I'm glad Vegeta is now Super Saiyan 3 but... he looks like crap. Why the change? It's not "perfect" like the one Goku is using? Or what? Super Saiyan 2.5?

[Yuji]

Very weird pacing in this series, I still can't get over it.

8 episodes to get the first Tamagami, the other two defeated in the next 4. Almost half the series spent on DW3 and now we're pretty much done with 2 unless a visit to the Glind planet is next.

I wonder how this will all work out in retrospect but I can't help but feel half of the "fighting mooks" episode parts should have been cut.

[Mr Baggins]

Right. Original DB and Super had over a 100 episodes each and more than enough time to do things that people want Daima to do. Despite that, I think there has been fun characterizations across the board, and I don't think it needs to be any deeper than what we're given. It's just fun shenanigans; shit's not that deep.

Yeah, that's more or less the gist of it. Though I'd add that even if there are deeper character throughlines being developed here (which could be the case, looking at Glorio in particular) Toriyama doesn't tend to shine big melodramatic spotlights on them. Characterization milestones and turning points in the original series were more often lower key, subtler affairs.

Well, having read the thread I agree it's possible, with some effort, to satisfactorily explain Vegeta having SSj3 and not using it again later - especially if they happen to make it a plot point later in Daima (doubtful, but could still happen).

Even if they never explain it officially, this could easily be another case of "retcon" rather than "branching continuity". I'd be remiss not to mention that Super was no stranger to those.

In Battle of Gods, you can imagine Vegeta going Super Saiyan 3 against Beerus instead and the story beat wouldn't change at all.

[Zinnia]

The writers of GT didn't have the guts to give a single character even one extra transformation level literally 15 years after the Buu arc and Vegeta was one of the prime logical candidates for one

1. Nothing says that Vegeta couldn't use SSJ3 in GT. "But he didn't use it", well he didn't in Super either, and we know he can do it since Super is after Daima.

2. He literally got SSJ4 in that series so uhh?