Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 12 - Official Discussion Thread

[JulieYBM]

Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 3 in Dragon Ball Daima is literally just for the purpose of selling merchandise. These decisions aren't made with any real logic other than, "Do we want to ask Toriyama if we can do this to sell merchandise?"

When you begin to play the, "Why are there inconsistencies between these two series made nine years apart and one set before the other?!" you have already lost the plot and wasted your time.

[AliTheZombie13]

Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 3 in Dragon Ball Daima is literally just for the purpose of selling merchandise. These decisions aren't made with any real logic other than, "Do we want to ask Toriyama if we can do this to sell merchandise?"

When you begin to play the, "Why are there inconsistencies between these two series made nine years apart and one set before the other?!" you have already lost the plot and wasted your time.

Agreed on both.
A transformation works best when it symbolizes a character's growth.
But Vegeta has no character arc in Daima, so the transformation feels empty.
It happened just for the sake of creating artificial tension and to sell merchandise to little kids.

[LightBing]

Just because there's a possible financial incentive to something doesn't mean it's soulless.

Toriyama received suggestions throughout Dragon Ball, he took some and not others; there's nothing new here.
Dragon Ball was made to be lucrative from day 1 and Toriyama never presented himself as strict in regards to the direction of his creations.

Maybe he saw all these iterations of SSJ3 Vegeta in alternative media and wanted to give it a go? Makes sense story wise if he wanted to represent Vegeta as equal to Goku.
Perhaps someone told him that fans have wanted SSJ3 Vegeta for years and he decided to give us a surprise?

Perhaps this was for fun?

I really don't understand the cynicism about a product as carefree as Daima.

[JulieYBM]

Just because there's a possible financial incentive to something doesn't mean it's soulless.

Toriyama received suggestions throughout Dragon Ball, he took some and not others; there's nothing new here.
Dragon Ball was made to be lucrative from day 1 and Toriyama never presented himself as strict in regards to the direction of his creations.

Maybe he saw all these iterations of SSJ3 Vegeta in alternative media and wanted to give it a go? Makes sense story wise if he wanted to represent Vegeta as equal to Goku.
Perhaps someone told him that fans have wanted SSJ3 Vegeta for years and he decided to give us a surprise?

Perhaps this was for fun?

I really don't understand the cynicism about a product as carefree as Daima.

You're missing the forest for the trees here: the issue is that Vegeta's new form isn't being woven into the plot as a part of a character arc. There's nothing we can do about a producer wanting to sell new merchandise, but for the series to not at least craft a character arc around it is bad.

The criticism that I was making in my previus post was that asking why Vegeta uses Super Saiyan 3 in Daima but not Super is ultimately a fruitless endeavor, because an sort of change to the status quo has to be thoroughly run through so many different channels that the production staff of these series are basically being ham-strung. Somebody makes the arbitrary decision to not use Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super, then someone made the aribitrary decision to use it in Dragon Ball Daima.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegeta has no reason to use any normal SSJ form after BoG because the God forms are objectively better, and indeed Vegeta almost never uses those old forms anymore unless it's to show off (like with Cabba and Broly).

The reason why Vegeta did not use SSJ3 in BoG is because he was in a frenzied rage in SSJ2 and did not think to turn SSJ3. Because, you know... we call it "mindless rage" for a reason.

I have the impression that people here are looking for plot-holes when there are none.

[AliTheZombie13]

Remember, guys. GT can still happen! /s

[JulieYBM]

Of course it's an inconsistency. So what? The people calling the shots don't give a shit, I don't know why anyone would bother giving a shit here when none of us are paid to care. Should these things be addressed in earlier projects? Yeah, but they weren't and we have established that—let's move along. You don't need to be right about everything, y'all. Your fandom isn't a competition to be the most special fan ever.

[SupremeKai25]

Of course it's an inconsistency. So what? The people calling the shots don't give a shit, I don't know why anyone would bother giving a shit here when none of us are paid to care. Should these things be addressed in earlier projects? Yeah, but they weren't and we have established that—let's move along. You don't need to be right about everything, y'all. Your fandom isn't a competition to be the most special fan ever.

It's not an inconsistency.

Vegeta simply had no reason to turn SSJ3 at any point in Super.

You even just acknowledged that he had no reason to turn SSJ3 in Daima and did it only to sell toys, not for any plot relevance.

[kemuri07]

Yeah I don't really agree that SSJ3 Vegeta is bad because it doesn't fit into some multi-episode Character arc. We're in strictly "rule of cool" territory and again "saturday morning cartoon vibes." Basically it doesn't have to be deeper than "we have a dope design for SSJ3 Vegeta and we wanna use it because the fans will pop for it" and I think that's totally fine.

Is it cynical? Sure. Is it kinda fun? Sure.

Stuff can be two things.

[SupremeKai25]

Yeah I don't really agree that SSJ3 Vegeta is bad because it doesn't fit into some multi-episode Character arc. We're in strictly "rule of cool" territory and again "saturday morning cartoon vibes." Basically it doesn't have to be deeper than "we have a dope design for SSJ3 Vegeta and we wanna use it because the fans will pop for it" and I think that's totally fine.

Is it cynical? Sure. Is it kinda fun? Sure.

Stuff can be two things.

In 10 years I don't think I've ever seen this defence for Super.

This is both refreshing and curious.

[tonysoprano300]

To me Super Saiyan 3 is like the Kaioken. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages so makes more sense to ignore it and focus on other forms more suitable for long-term combat.

Is that even true of Kaioken? They certainly would have lost to Vegeta if Goku didnt have it

[JulieYBM]

Just for the sake of clarity: I thought the presentation of Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta was really boring, even putting any writing issues aside. That stems from the same issues that I have for the series in general, though: it's animation tends to be really restrained. Even though Episode #8 was a step above Episode #12, I do think that there's something holding it back, too.

Well, whatever.

Of course it's an inconsistency. So what? The people calling the shots don't give a shit, I don't know why anyone would bother giving a shit here when none of us are paid to care. Should these things be addressed in earlier projects? Yeah, but they weren't and we have established that—let's move along. You don't need to be right about everything, y'all. Your fandom isn't a competition to be the most special fan ever.

It's not an inconsistency.

Vegeta simply had no reason to turn SSJ3 at any point in Super.

You even just acknowledged that he had no reason to turn SSJ3 in Daima and did it only to sell toys, not for any plot relevance.

It is a inconsistency, because clearly an conscious decision was made not to have Vegeta use Super Saiyan 3 during Dragon Ball Super, despite the fact that it was continually used for other characters throughout the series, and the subject was just never brought up—just like how Vegeta using Super Saiyan God was never brought up in Dragon Ball Super.

And you know what? It's not a big enough deal for us to spend thread upon thread and post upon post rehashing this same stupid fucking discussion like it's going to change anything.

[The Monkey King]

My thoughts on SSJ3 Vegeta:



The hair also looks dumb. With Gotenks we already saw SSJ3 on a character who has hair identical to Vegeta in base.

[LightBing]

Just because there's a possible financial incentive to something doesn't mean it's soulless.

Toriyama received suggestions throughout Dragon Ball, he took some and not others; there's nothing new here.
Dragon Ball was made to be lucrative from day 1 and Toriyama never presented himself as strict in regards to the direction of his creations.

Maybe he saw all these iterations of SSJ3 Vegeta in alternative media and wanted to give it a go? Makes sense story wise if he wanted to represent Vegeta as equal to Goku.
Perhaps someone told him that fans have wanted SSJ3 Vegeta for years and he decided to give us a surprise?

Perhaps this was for fun?

I really don't understand the cynicism about a product as carefree as Daima.

You're missing the forest for the trees here: the issue is that Vegeta's new form isn't being woven into the plot as a part of a character arc. There's nothing we can do about a producer wanting to sell new merchandise, but for the series to not at least craft a character arc around it is bad.

The criticism that I was making in my previus post was that asking why Vegeta uses Super Saiyan 3 in Daima but not Super is ultimately a fruitless endeavor, because an sort of change to the status quo has to be thoroughly run through so many different channels that the production staff of these series are basically being ham-strung. Somebody makes the arbitrary decision to not use Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super, then someone made the aribitrary decision to use it in Dragon Ball Daima.

It's not a fault by default.
It's a personal preference that might improve or worsen the moment depending on the quality of the writing.

Thinking about it again, with all this discussion. I think it actually has character implications and it's just repeating the same plot of Super.
Vegeta is now equal to Goku after overcoming his issues. In Super he surpassed Goku temporarily and here he equals Goku.
So yeah, it's not adding anything plot wise in the end.

[SHINOBI-03]

To me Super Saiyan 3 is like the Kaioken. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages so makes more sense to ignore it and focus on other forms more suitable for long-term combat.

Is that even true of Kaioken? They certainly would have lost to Vegeta if Goku didnt have it

Goku still lost against Vegeta and Freeza. The Kaioken may have given him a quick boost in power but eventually it destroyed his body without putting a significant damage to either of the two before using the Genki-dama as his last option.

Super Saiyan 3 is similar in giving the user a quick power up but we all know how it doesn't work under normal circumstances. Unless you're dead or in a fused state then all it does is burning through your energy unless you finish the fight as quickly as possible.

[SupremeKai25]

It is a inconsistency, because clearly an conscious decision was made not to have Vegeta use Super Saiyan 3 during Dragon Ball Super, despite the fact that it was continually used for other characters throughout the series

These are all your assumptions.

The role that SSJ3 played in DBS is vastly overblown. Goku used it only thrice or four times in the entire series, usually in casual settings, and he's pretty much the only character who used it. (I can't bother to go back to that Copy Vegeta arc and check if Gotenks used it)

[tonysoprano300]

To me Super Saiyan 3 is like the Kaioken. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages so makes more sense to ignore it and focus on other forms more suitable for long-term combat.

Is that even true of Kaioken? They certainly would have lost to Vegeta if Goku didnt have it

Goku still lost against Vegeta and Freeza. The Kaioken may have given him a quick boost in power but eventually it destroyed his body without putting a significant damage to either of the two before using the Genki-dama as his last option.

Super Saiyan 3 is similar in giving the user a quick power up but we all know how it doesn't work under normal circumstances. Unless you're dead or in a fused state then all it does is burning through your energy unless you finish the fight as quickly as possible.

It did put significant damage into Vegeta though, thats the only reason Gohan was able to hold him off. IIRC, the only reason Goku's body gave out initially is because he went past the Kaioken level that he was capable of handling at that point, next time we see him use Kaioken we see that Goku was able to push up the multiplier because his body was more capable of handling it due to his training in 100X gravity. So how much of a drain Kaioken even is would be dependent on how much the user has trained their body to whether it.

Anyways, I can see why Vegeta wouldnt use it in Super but ifk why he wouldnt use it in BOG

[goku the krump dancer]

When it comes to SS3 as a whole, I think the whole narrative purpose of it was to show it wasn’t the Trump card we thought it was gonna be, save for literally only Movie 13. Remember, right after Goku confronts Fat Boo and Bobidi, he tells piccolo that he didn’t think he could take Boo out, granted he wasn’t trying but even when he DID try he still wasn’t successful with the form. No one was even banking on Gotenks getting the form and even HE wasn’t successful with it either. So Vegeta getting it in Daima just to show off that he’s stronger than he was in the Boo arc works fine enough for me, there doesn’t have to be a big character build for him to reveal it because Daima isn’t about the pursuit of SS3. And neither was the Boo arc for that matter.

Remember one of the Sub plots for the Android arc was ascending past Super Saiyan PROPERLY with Speed, Power and Ki control, SS2 was the pay off of that with the grade forms serving the purpose of showing the incorrect ways of going higher than SS. The Namek arc had a sub plot about THE Super Saiyan and a little bit of the Saiyan arc as well ( I vaguely remember either Vegeta or Nappa mentioning Super Saiyans but I digress.) and the pay off being Goku transforming for the first time against Freeza.

Toriyama has a knack for treating the built up gem from a previous like a new Toy for other characters to play with in the next arc sans Trunks with Super Saiyan in the Android arc, Goku and Vegeta with SS2 in the Boo arc and funny enough SS3 was treated that like that in the same arc it was introduced in and is getting that treatment again in Daima.

[Basaku]

I mean, like... the whole SSJ3 Vegeta thing is what, literally 30 years too late? People care this much about it? Ya'll know it's just there to make it official and he will use it maybe once or twice in the next 10 years at best, it will never factor into any relevant battle or anything

[Lord Beerus]

Majin Kuu and Duu carried this episode hard. They are slowly becoming the best parts of Daima. Quite an achievement.

I didn't really care for the Vegeta portion of the story. I found Vegeta's fight with Tamagami #2 pretty boring and as far as Vegeta going Super Saiyan 3...eh. If something like this happened in Battle of Gods back in 2013, that would have been a neat reveal. But it happening now just feels so... hollow and vapid. Vegeta turning into Super Saiyan 3 at this point does nothing for Vegeta's character or even serve any of the themes of the narrative. It's fanservice, pure and simple. Which for the Vegeta fans, I'm sure they'll love this moment for him... but this did nothing more.