Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 12 - Official Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

I think it actually has character implications and it's just repeating the same plot of Super.
Vegeta is now equal to Goku after overcoming his issues. In Super he surpassed Goku temporarily and here he equals Goku.

I have the same thoughts, largely.

What I like about Vegeta getting this form in particular though is that it actually builds upon the themes of the Buu arc. There, Super Saiyan 3 is what forces Vegeta to finally come to terms with the fact that he was inferior to Goku. Here, there's an irony to that – it's not until after he's able to make that internal reconciliation that he achieves the very same form during training. And in true SS3 fashion, shit comes out of nowhere against Tamagami #2 without prior foreshadowing.

That's why I always would have preferred this to be a thing in Battle of Gods, were it to happen earlier. But because there are similar beats from Super, the impact is dulled if you're already familiar with everything that happens in it. If there's an audience coming straight into this off the back of the Buu arc without having seen any prior revival material, I kinda envy them.

Alas, beggars can't be choosers. I still very much enjoy this for what it is and what it's doing as a standalone sequel.

[Grimlock]

One can't even say that Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 3 in Movie 14 would overshadow Goku getting Super Saiyan God, as Piccolo and Gohan got transformations in the same movie, and one didn't overshadow the other. See where lack of planning leads us...

Ya'll know it's just there to make it official and he will use it maybe once or twice in the next 10 years at best, it will never factor into any relevant battle or anything

If Toriyama was onboard, I would agree (the last time Super Saiyan 3 appeared with him heavily involved was Movie 14). But as he is no longer, then I'm sure we can expect to see a major push for all these new forms going forward. It'd be very naive to think Toei and Toyotaro would do otherwise.

[Basaku]

If Toriyama was onboard, I would agree (the last time Super Saiyan 3 appeared with him heavily involved was Movie 14). But as he is no longer, then I'm sure we can expect to see a major push for all these new forms going forward. It'd be very naive to think Toei and Toyotaro would do otherwise.

I guess, but at the same time I would expect them to push for more newer stuff (UI, UE and future forms)

[TobyS]

Yeah goku took 7 years of afterlife training with no distractions to get 3.

Vegeta didn't know 3 existed till he died.

Then he gets it in one year, and can use it despite being less used to the nerfing kid form and demon realm air then goku is.
And then never uses it against Beerus or anyone else.

Yeah I'm not buying it or liking it tbh.
But maybe if they bug fuse their new gogeta can now more plausibly use it.

[Jord]

The writers of GT didn't have the guts to give a single character even one extra transformation level literally 15 years after the Buu arc and Vegeta was one of the prime logical candidates for one

1. Nothing says that Vegeta couldn't use SSJ3 in GT. "But he didn't use it", well he didn't in Super either, and we know he can do it since Super is after Daima.

2. He literally got SSJ4 in that series so uhh?

Not to mention Uub getting his Majuub form after Buu sacrifices himself to boost Uub. Even though Buu wasn't much in GT, they actually did something meaningful with him, unlike Daima and especially Super.

[Koitsukai]

I liked this episode. Fights were nicely done, Neva stepped in to make it a little more interesting.
Duu is becoming more and more Buu like, and Kuu seems smart but lacks that thing that sets masterminds apart, I think only through absorption his intelligence will be exploited.

SS3 Vegeta looks way better than I expected, seems Toriyama watched GT and saw how ugly Vegeta with long hair looked. Also, throwback to the earlier drafts of SS3. I never liked the SS3 Vegeta from videogames, vest top and long hair... yikes, you are too short to get away with that mane, sorry, Geets.
I loved that he was able to show his wits, too.
Since we don't have any proof to say this form was introduced for this or for that out-of-universe reason, and I'm not that cynical, I rather believe it was Toriyama's last kiss goodbye to the Geta stans and also to Vegeta himself. He crapped all over him for 30 years, just to go against the flow, and finally he gave people what they wanted.
In any case, it's to sell DLCs, I don't see that many toys anymore lol.

Maybe Arinsu's plan with blow up in her face. Glorio is yet to make his move, and I wonder if Degesu will remain the silly sidekick. Goma has all the numbers to get the Evil Eye, but Arinsu probably will have something to say about it. I also wonder what would happen if Kid Buu was after the DB and refused to do the challenge. Killing the Tamagami or fighting them 2v1 might end up in the DB being destroyed or teleported away.

The SS3 discourse in regards of BoG is overblown. I understand audiences nowadays need things to be spoonfed, otherwise it's BAD and WRONG and PLOTHOLES. Audiences filling in the blanks is ok, too, it's what DB has been down for ages.
In DBS, Vegeta has a powered-up SS2 that eclipses SS3 Goku without the stamina issues of SS3. He learned this fact between Daima and BoG, by BoG he no longer uses SS3, he trained a lesser form to be better than his own SS3. The My Bulma Rage just made that form way stronger. He had actually managed to dodge/block a few hits from Beerus better than Ultimate Gohan and SS Gotenks even before the rage boost.

[Ronin]

My biggest complaint with Daima were those few episodes where the pacing had come to a lull, but now that we're out of that (and hopefully stay out), I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I'm actually enjoying Daima more than Super and maybe even a little more than Battle of Gods. It's not perfect and I could write a list of nitpicks that I have with it, but for me, it's simple enjoyable solid content. I wouldn't complain if it was better, but I also would feel silly complaining that it's not better either. I don't know what I'll think of it once it's finished, but as of now, the good and bad is balanced enough for it to be good enough for me.

What I was hoping would happen has more or less happened where the pace picked up, the rest of dragon balls were acquired relatively quickly and now everyone looks like they might have a lot of deal with when the protagonists get to the 1st Demon Realm. I hope they keep up the pace as we approach the end. What I don't want to see is for them to settle into another lull and then resolve everything in the last 2 or 3 episodes. I'm hoping the first half of the show will contrast with the second half kinda like the calm before the storm.

[fadeddreams5]

I see debates left and right whenever an inconsistency reveals itself or a new lore dump arrives, but I learned with Super to just shut off my brain with modern Dragon Ball and stop comparing it to DBZ and the original manga. These writers are not paying attention to detail. They don't care. They just want to make cool shit.

SSJ3 Vegeta wasn't written with the mindset of, "hmm, how do we carefully introduce this form in way that is consistent to the lore and develops Vegeta's character in a meaningful way?" No. They just went, "yoooo... look at this sick SSJ3 Vegeta art he drew. Let's use it for the Tamagami battle. Heck yeah."

[TheMikado]

The writers of GT didn't have the guts to give a single character even one extra transformation level literally 15 years after the Buu arc and Vegeta was one of the prime logical candidates for one

1. Nothing says that Vegeta couldn't use SSJ3 in GT. "But he didn't use it", well he didn't in Super either, and we know he can do it since Super is after Daima.

2. He literally got SSJ4 in that series so uhh?

Huh indeed. Also we got 291 DBZ episodes not even including movies and 64 episodes of GT…

I’m personally like the pacing of hard won, meaningful transformations which show character development. That’s my preferred storytelling mechanic.

[Basaku]

I’m personally like the pacing of hard won, meaningful transformations which show character development. That’s my preferred storytelling mechanic.

Yup. Which we haven't had since Cell arc basically. Writing wise, DB was always on the downhill from that point on

[sangofe]

I’m personally like the pacing of hard won, meaningful transformations which show character development. That’s my preferred storytelling mechanic.

Yup. Which we haven't had since Cell arc basically. Writing wise, DB was always on the downhill from that point on

I disagree. The Boo arc is the best of them all.

[Majin Buu]

Yup. Which we haven't had since Cell arc basically. Writing wise, DB was always on the downhill from that point on

Since you're doing the whole "my opinion is fact and people need to just accept that" thing:

People that love the Cell arc love to overstate how great it is and conversely love to overstate how flawed the Buu arc is. The Cell arc has its flaws too, and even outside of those flaws, people have personal tastes as well, so perhaps what the Cell arc is doing- no matter how good you personally think it is, just doesn't do it for certain people as much as stuff like the Red Ribbon arc, or the Buu arc, or Daima. We're all bringing our own tastes and biases to the table here.

This insinuation you're peddling that people who like stuff like the Buu arc or Daima, or GT and Super for that matter, are inherently bad for Dragon Ball is just you tying to present your particular tastes as the way things should be (IE- presenting what are ultimately subjective opinions like they're objective facts).

Again: Could Daima be doing more on the storytelling front? Yes. Does that mean people are in the wrong for enjoying it in spite of that? No.

[Mr Baggins]

I'm not sure what more could even be done on the storytelling front without intrinsically changing the format of the show. It's an episodic adventure. That doesn't mean there won't be character arcs or themes, and ideally there will be, but a lot of it's going to be developed gradually over the course of its 20(+?) episodes and made more obvious to people in hindsight or by rewatching.

I cannot beseech people enough to let the story play out. It's already been shown that just about every week there are complaints from the "look at da plotholes!" guys that just inevitably gets addressed in the following episode anyway, and that will very likely pertain to characterization all the same.

[LightBing]

I think it actually has character implications and it's just repeating the same plot of Super.
Vegeta is now equal to Goku after overcoming his issues. In Super he surpassed Goku temporarily and here he equals Goku.

I have the same thoughts, largely.

What I like about Vegeta getting this form in particular though is that it actually builds upon the themes of the Buu arc. There, Super Saiyan 3 is what forces Vegeta to finally come to terms with the fact that he was inferior to Goku. Here, there's an irony to that – it's not until after he's able to make that internal reconciliation that he achieves the very same form during training. And in true SS3 fashion, shit comes out of nowhere against Tamagami #2 without prior foreshadowing.

That's why I always would have preferred this to be a thing in Battle of Gods, were it to happen earlier. But because there are similar beats from Super, the impact is dulled if you're already familiar with everything that happens in it. If there's an audience coming straight into this off the back of the Buu arc without having seen any prior revival material, I kinda envy them.

Alas, beggars can't be choosers. I still very much enjoy this for what it is and what it's doing as a standalone sequel.

We're so used to Vegeta being at the forefront that him getting new stuff has almost no impact.
I'm with you, seeing this fresh out the Boo Arc would have been amazing.

This moment feels cleaner than in BoG. More show than tell.

[Basaku]

Yup. Which we haven't had since Cell arc basically. Writing wise, DB was always on the downhill from that point on

Since you're doing the whole "my opinion is fact and people need to just accept that" thing:

People that love the Cell arc love to overstate how great it is and conversely love to overstate how flawed the Buu arc is. The Cell arc has its flaws too, and even outside of those flaws, people have personal tastes as well, so perhaps what the Cell arc is doing- no matter how good you personally think it is, just doesn't do it for certain people as much as stuff like the Red Ribbon arc, or the Buu arc, or Daima. We're all bringing our own tastes and biases to the table here.

This insinuation you're peddling that people who like stuff like the Buu arc or Daima, or GT and Super for that matter, are inherently bad for Dragon Ball is just you tying to present your particular tastes as the way things should be (IE- presenting what are ultimately subjective opinions like they're objective facts).

Again: Could Daima be doing more on the storytelling front? Yes. Does that mean people are in the wrong for enjoying it in spite of that? No.

Reread my post, then yours, then talk about reaching, overracting, painting yourself as a... victim lol??? and generally putting words in my mouth. Also, I don't need to state "IMO" in every post as it basically comes by the definition of posting on a discussion forum.

[Saturnine]

You're missing the forest for the trees here: the issue is that Vegeta's new form isn't being woven into the plot as a part of a character arc. There's nothing we can do about a producer wanting to sell new merchandise, but for the series to not at least craft a character arc around it is bad.

Welp, it's not like SSj3 had anything to do with Goku's development either. He just whipped it out with no warning. Not that Goku was ever a dynamic character, but still. I can let it slide, since SSj3 is kind of an inside joke among the fandom anyway. Vegeta beating the Tamagami was pretty much the first flat-out W SSj3 got in canonical material.

[JulieYBM]

You're missing the forest for the trees here: the issue is that Vegeta's new form isn't being woven into the plot as a part of a character arc. There's nothing we can do about a producer wanting to sell new merchandise, but for the series to not at least craft a character arc around it is bad.

Welp, it's not like SSj3 had anything to do with Goku's development either. He just whipped it out with no warning. Not that Goku was ever a dynamic character, but still. I can let it slide, since SSj3 is kind of an inside joke among the fandom anyway. Vegeta beating the Tamagami was pretty much the first flat-out W SSj3 got in canonical material.

I would argue that my criticism applies to the entirety of the original comic, but I really don't feel like writing an essay about that shit right here and now rofl

[Majin Buu]

Reread my post, then yours, then talk about reaching, overracting, painting yourself as a... victim lol??? and generally putting words in my mouth.

Agree to disagree then. What I said is simply how your posts come off to me.

[Dr. Casey]

I'm not sure what more could even be done on the storytelling front without intrinsically changing the format of the show. It's an episodic adventure. That doesn't mean there won't be character arcs or themes, and ideally there will be, but a lot of it's going to be developed gradually over the course of its 20(+?) episodes and made more obvious to people in hindsight or by rewatching.

I cannot beseech people enough to let the story play out. It's already been shown that just about every week there are complaints from the "look at da plotholes!" guys that just inevitably gets addressed in the following episode anyway, and that will very likely pertain to characterization all the same.

I'll assume more than 20, yeah. Out of the 500 or so anime I've watched, I've never seen a 20 episode anime. Two-cour anime are usually 24-26, rarely 22. Obviously not impossible for Daima to do a weird episode count though.

[JulieYBM]

Kyousougiga was only ten episodes, so it's not impossible to do something less than the usual 12-13/23-26 episodes for a season, especially since Daima seems removed from the typical anime ecosystem.