Do New Forms Actually Sell Merchandise?

[Skar]

Quite clearly Super brand wasn't "phased out in favour of general Dragon Ball branding."

Well title is "Dragon Ball: Sparking Zero" not "Dragon Ball Super: Sparking Zero". I'm pretty sure that's what he meant by phasing out Super branding because he gave an example of some Super merchandise only going by Dragon Ball. It's not like Super disappeared and just that "Dragon Ball" refers to the whole fanchise since Super was only one part of it.

[Jord]

I feel Super is Subpar but I can't deny that some of the forms or new characters look cool. I bought them in FighterZ and I will probably get some UI/Gogeta or Vegeto Blue figures later this year. Cool new designs can go a long way.

[GokuHater]

Are Super forms there to sell merchandise.
Like hell

Please remember merchandise is not only toys but also video games, in which the new forms show up like crazy.

Of course the same applies to Z and GT. The biggest difference is that Z is basically based on the original authors manga, so no one can say that it was "just to sell toys" cause Toryiama WAS freaking creative and just had fun (though by Buu he probably did that by obligation).
GT on the other hand is an obvious cash grab though there aren't that many new forms, which would make the show get tiring. Would it be different if GT lasted longer? Probably. But we have what we have.

In GT I can count 3 new "forms" when counting fusion - Golden Oozaru, SSJ4, Gogeta

In Super however it feels like we're getting a new form each corner. And don't get me wrong. Od don't hate all of them and for some they surely came up with a narrative explanation. But for the rest... ?

I can count 4 forms which are completely justified for me:
Super Saiyan God is basically what Super is all about, it introduces us with a new ceiling and god ki

Super Saiyan Rose is kind of a black mirror for our heroes getting god ki

Ultra Instinct is a peak of training in Super and a good concept in itself. It didn't need that many variations, mind you, but it's okay

New Super Saiyan Broly, again not great but they did something interesting with it besides adding another color.

As for the forms, which I think can easily be skipped or are there just for the sake of transformations, we have:
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Rage
Blue Kaioken (not a transformation per se but still a visual form)
Vegetto Blue
Blue Evolution
Kalifla Legendary Super Saiyan
Mistic Gohan
Orange Piccolo
Gohan Beast

For new forms we can also throw Ultra Ego and SSJ3 Vegeta from Daima (ok with me).
All of these forms at best are mediocre and could be deleted from the plot by simply changing a few little things and nothing would be that much different.
At worst they're nonsensical upgrades without rhyme or reason to them not giving enough narration to explain them.

I feel that this shows that clearly we have a problem with making forms for merchandise be it video games, toys or just nostalgia. Dragon Ball franchise obviously exists now for making money. This in no way makes Super and Daima stories useless - I do enjoy what we have and have plenty of respect for all the writers doing their job but I can certainly feel a lot less creativity compared to original, Z and even GT. (Heck, even I feel less creativity in Super anime versus Super manga).

[Jord]

You can also add Gogeta Blue and slightly redesigned Gohan (Resurrection F) to that list. They look cool though.

[Zephyr]

For sure. I agree with you, I was just using that as a jumping-off point for another train of thought.

I was thinking about the next big destructive feat and I remembered Beerus and Champa fighting would destroy both Universe 6 and 7. The characters always learn to better control their power after each of these crazy feats but maybe they eventually become too powerful and they can never fight at full power. It might be why the Gods of Destruction were only allowed to fight before the ToP because the void is bigger than the individual universes. I think also why Gogeta and Broly were warping in that dimension thing during their fight so that maybe their not using their full strength on Earth.

I think what's interesting about Super is that it shows the end of "there's always a bigger fish". Throughout the original series, Goku or sometimes Gohan was the strongest known character until the next saga introduces someone stronger. Super starts with Beerus as the undisputed biggest (mortal or at least used to be mortal) fish in the universe. Every time we assume a new antagonist might be stronger we find out Beerus is still above them so he's kept as the moving goalpost until whenever they decide to end it. The only ones that surpass Beerus are higher ranking deities the Angels, Grand Priest who is their father, and Zeno the absolute powerful in the multiverse.

It's definitely possible that beyond a certain point the characters simply cannot fight at full power anymore. That could provide some interesting drama, I think. "I could kill this guy will my full strength, but it'd probably kill everyone else in the process as well. What do!?"

I totally forgot about ripping holes in dimensions when thinking about big post-Namek feats. Boo and Gotenks do this to escape from the Room of Spirit and Time. Boo does this against Vegetto in the Z anime. And then there's the CG hellscape Gogeta and Broli fight in that you mentioned. Was their full-strength fight so intense that it moved past destroying the planet, straight to incidentally ripping holes in reality? Or was it opened deliberately so they could then fight at full strength in a place that could handle it? Never really given it much thought.

Beerus being this ever-moving goal-post is certainly something. I do think the Super anime suggests that Goku finally surpassed Beerus vicariously through achieving Ultra Instinct, circumventing a more straightforward victorious rematch. But, then, stories set after the Tournament of Power keep saying "oh wow, this guy might even be stronger than Beerus-sama!" It's certainly possible that Toriyama was never really intending Beerus to be surpassed, and that he's the ultimate biggest fish (who Goku will fight). Or perhaps Beerus keeps training in secret, and so there's a constant one-upping going on.

Either way, having Goku just continue to train under Beerus and Whis with Vegeta in every story after the ToP certainly suggests that Toriyama was comfortable with them being there. Were we on the cusp of moving beyond this status quo when Toriyama passed, or were we still going to get more of the same? We might never know.

[JulieYBM]

I liked the whole "the universe is in danger from their clashing ki" bit, but I think that's where the story can then move into, "Gokuu and friends need to train their ki more so as to be able to safely use it with pin-point precision." Like, imagine Gokuu punching Beers and there's an overlaid image of a planet exploding or something to indicate that that's what it felt like for Beers, but that a planet doesn't actually get punched to pieces.

[GokuHater]

You can also add Gogeta Blue and slightly redesigned Gohan (Resurrection F) to that list. They look cool though.

I completely forgot about Gogeta for some reason

For me his inclusion is better than in Zamasu arc, he has a point and purpose in this ever escalating battle and basically manages to win.

However if I had to choose, I would gladly take Gogeta and not have Vegitto at all :p

[Jord]

You can also add Gogeta Blue and slightly redesigned Gohan (Resurrection F) to that list. They look cool though.

I completely forgot about Gogeta for some reason

For me his inclusion is better than in Zamasu arc, he has a point and purpose in this ever escalating battle and basically manages to win.

However if I had to choose, I would gladly take Gogeta and not have Vegitto at all :p

Gogeta, to me, has a color scheme that works better than Vegitto. The Blue/Yellow of Gogeta Blue looks great. For Vegitto I prefer his Z.SSJ colors.

Interesting point you make about Gogeta winning. I feel he is the only fusion that wins the major battle? Both in Z as well as in Super.
Gotenks, Vegitto, Gogeta SSJ4, Kefla... they all look the part and they all end up losing.

[GokuHater]

Yup. And you know why I think that is?

Personally I think because Broly is a movie.
The anime and manga stories have a tradition in which our heroes throw everything at the bad guy but actually defeat him when either they're at their lowest or at least not in the peak of their energy.
That always created tension and made the story evolve.
In the movies however I think the win often is given to the most powerful our heores are , be it fusion, transformation etc. Spectacle.

Think back to movie 12. Vegitto did win there albeit in a very quick way

[Baggie_Saiyan]

So it is an actually rather complicated. On paper it may seem that forms exist to "sell toys" but it's far from the case. A lot merch is actually not sold as commercial goods in Japan, so their sales are determined by game stations, convivence stores, book stores etc. So Bandai have to be cautious for example they planned a SS3 Vegeta prize figure for February however they removed him off the catalog last minute and pushed him to June because when June info dropped he would have gone SS3 in the anime so they could reveal the figure otherwise it would have had to have been blanked if they stuck to the original intended release of Feb and many stores likely wouldn't have placed many orders as a result.

Toei merch banned Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast for 11 months, naturally Bandai planned a lot of merch for them however there was absolutely no interest when they finally released to the point Bandai had to use the DBZ brand to try and get rid of them but orders kept getting less and less and fan interest was non existence to the point where a commercial figure of Beast that was sold for 11,000yen was reselling for 9,000 once released so people took a loss on it if they regretted pre ordering.

Goku will likely have a new form as Bandai have blanked 2 Goku's figures for a March Ichiban Kuji but there are no prize figures yet (we have schedules up to June) but it's too late for that Kuji to be delayed, today I got notified that Softbits vol.2 (a candy figure product) has been delayed 2 months from April to June.

Back in 2013 BoG released March but we didn't get the first SSG figure until Jan 2014

So it is actually a lot more complicated if there are new forms cuz Bandai have to get their strategies right. Honestly I think Bandai would genuinely prefer if they weren't new forms!

[Jord]

So it is an actually rather complicated. On paper it may seem that forms exist to "sell toys" but it's far from the case. A lot merch is actually not sold as commercial goods in Japan, so their sales are determined by game stations, convivence stores, book stores etc. So Bandai have to be cautious for example they planned a SS3 Vegeta prize figure for February however they removed him off the catalog last minute and pushed him to June because when June info dropped he would have gone SS3 in the anime so they could reveal the figure otherwise it would have had to have been blanked if they stuck to the original intended release of Feb and many stores likely wouldn't have placed many orders as a result.

Toei merch banned Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast for 11 months, naturally Bandai planned a lot of merch for them however there was absolutely no interest when they finally released to the point Bandai had to use the DBZ brand to try and get rid of them but orders kept getting less and less and fan interest was non existence to the point where a commercial figure of Beast that was sold for 11,000yen was reselling for 9,000 once released so people took a loss on it if they regretted pre ordering.

Goku will likely have a new form as Bandai have blanked 2 Goku's figures for a March Ichiban Kuji but there are no prize figures yet (we have schedules up to June) but it's too late for that Kuji to be delayed, today I got notified that Softbits vol.2 (a candy figure product) has been delayed 2 months from April to June.

Back in 2013 BoG released March but we didn't get the first SSG figure until Jan 2014

So it is actually a lot more complicated if there are new forms cuz Bandai have to get their strategies right. Honestly I think Bandai would genuinely prefer if they weren't new forms!

That's extremely interesting.

The delay for new characters to appear in video games is also somewhat puzzling in this regard. While Sparking Zero only just received The SuperHero characters, sometimes it takes a lot of time for new characters to appear in video games. Sometimes it doesn't. I know there is work involved creating the models and such but the differences in appearances in video games can be quite big. SuperHero Gohan took about a year to appear in Xenoverse 2.
On the other hand, DBH Ultimate mission X for 3DS got Golden Freeza, SSGSS Goku and Vegeta in the week they appeared in the anime. Even if accounting that we got the Frieza movie beforehand, the gaps may vary between games.