Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 15 - Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

Daima is on the verge of losing me.

I can't stand the lack of stakes.
I can't stand the bullshit of Goku and Vegeta not going Super Saiyan and just ending the conflict when they know they can, only to turn Super Saiyan at the very end of the episode.
I can't stand the lack of character development among the cast of new characters
I really can't stand how characters like Piccolo, Kaioshin and Bulma are literally just cardboard cutouts at this stage instead of characters who actually contribute to the plot in any significant way.

Daima has five episodes left. Why is this show insistent on wasting time with Goku and the gang twiddling their thumbs with a total non-threat of a fodder army? Give Glorio a character arc. Build more on Pansy's characterisation and utility. Or why not spend more time with Arinsu and develop her more as a villain?

The more I go back and rewatch Daima, the more I think Toriyama wrote this series to be a mini-series that lasted no more than 10 episodes but was then stretched out to last double that length to get the most out of the original plot outline because there are just too many episodes where the plot will just come to a screeching halt to pad out the runtime with unnecessarily dragged-out fighting scenes or lore dumping.

I will say this... I do find some genuine morbid hilarity in the show emphasising the importance and danger of The Third Eye, only for it to end up as a belt buckle and then traded for a giant hat.

But... yeah... this episode sums up why Daima is losing me... it wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants the charm of early Dragon Ball (Kid Goku), but at the same time, it doesn't want to abandon the iconography that Dragon Ball is known for (Super Saiyan) or disregard the marketing opportunity of Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta with a new hat (SSJ Kid Goku and SSJ3 Kid Vegeta). But at the same time, it doesn't want to create too many similarities with the other Dragon Ball anime that had a significant character aged down (GT), so it ignores the narrative crutches that the show introduced with the ageing down process. But that ironically creates even more issues with the plot, especially since Daima never addresses the case having any difficulty of the cast transforming. Like, if Daima and Super don't exist in the same continuity (which Daima has strongly implied is the case) why not bring Gohan along with them? He's the strongest non-fused character in the show. He'd be far more useful in combat than Goku or Vegeta and he doesn't need to transform either.

This is a show that has an identity crisis. I just hope the last few episodes are at least superficially entertaining.

[nato25]

Daima is on the verge of losing me.

I can't stand the lack of stakes.
I can't stand the bullshit of Goku and Vegeta not going Super Saiyan and just ending the conflict when they know they can, only to turn Super Saiyan at the very end of the episode.
I can't stand the lack of character development among the cast of new characters
I really can't stand how characters like Piccolo, Kaioshin and Bulma are literally just cardboard cutouts at this stage instead of characters who actually contribute to the plot in any significant way.

Daima has five episodes left. Why is this show insistent on wasting time with Goku and the gang twiddling their thumbs with a total non-threat of a fodder army? Give Glorio a character arc. Build more on Pansy's characterisation and utility. Or why not spend more time with Arinsu and develop her more as a villain?

The more I go back and rewatch Daima, the more I think Toriyama wrote this series to be a mini-series that lasted no more than 10 episodes but was then stretched out to last double that length to get the most out of the original plot outline because there are just too many episodes where the plot will just come to a screeching halt to pad out the runtime with unnecessarily dragged-out fighting scenes or lore dumping.

I will say this... I do find some genuine morbid hilarity in the show emphasising the importance and danger of The Third Eye, only for it to end up as a belt buckle and then traded for a giant hat.

But... yeah... this episode sums up why Daima is losing me... it wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants the charm of early Dragon Ball (Kid Goku), but at the same time, it doesn't want to abandon the iconography that Dragon Ball is known for (Super Saiyan) or disregard the marketing opportunity of Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta with a new hat (SSJ Kid Goku and SSJ3 Kid Vegeta). But at the same time, it doesn't want to create too many similarities with the other Dragon Ball anime that had a significant character aged down (GT), so it ignores the narrative crutches that the show introduced with the ageing down process. But that ironically creates even more issues with the plot, especially since Daima never addresses the case having any difficulty of the cast transforming. Like, if Daima and Super don't exist in the same continuity (which Daima has strongly implied is the case) why not bring Gohan along with them? He's the strongest non-fused character in the show. He'd be far more useful in combat than Goku or Vegeta and he doesn't need to transform either.

This is a show that has an identity crisis. I just hope the last few episodes are at least superficially entertaining.

Very well summed up, they couldn't resist using SSJ as a draw and the show suffers for it. Have to sell figures and dokkan cards somehow though.

[Jord]

Using SSJ isn't bad in itself. You just have to make opponents stronger.
GT used SSJ 1-3 and showed that opponents were a match for these forms. Then it adds more tension and gives us the visual variety of those transformations.

[LightBing]

The action in this episode was great. I really liked the choreography and animation.
The scenario is something rare in Dragon Ball, that was a plus.

-The flashback was a fun tidbit, Dabra really was an asshole.
-Hybis continues to be MVP.
-The whole sequence with the Third World crew as fun. I really thought they were dead when the music suddenly stopped only for them to emerge from the smoke. Daima has a bunch of little moments like these that have a strong effect.
-Father/daughter combination was cute.

I do relate with people saying this struggle was forced. Due to the nature of Dragon Ball things have to be forced in some way and the writers didn't really reach a middle ground with the viewers.

If the battle started from the moment the tanks showed up, it would be plausible. Magic weapons, a big number of enemies, trying to protect the others, fighting in a place with innocents.

Instead they relied on the "turned into kids weakness", which was never really explained all that well. Worst, it seems like it comes and goes depending on plot. Reminds me of ToP anime writing.

Still a fun episode, which could have been stellar with better writing.

[AliTheZombie13]

- Have the characters transform from the get-go and STILL struggle.
- Have the enemies show up with a gimmick that prevents them from transforming, that Pansy's father destroys in the end.
- Have the characters say "We're saving up energy to fight Gomah/the Tamagami" and only transform when they realize they absolutely have to.

Either would've worked just fine.

[emperior]

Another boring episode. I don’t get how the story has taken such a nosedive, but I sure hope it rebounds strongly for the finale.

[Jack Bz]

I laughed at Goku asking Neva if he can help, since he made the shields etc.

Bro, you are the most powerful being in the universe. Why are you asking for help without even beginning to try properly? That's extremely out of character. He's even in mortal danger and resorting to using the healing bugs and still won't transform.

It really was too big of an issue to just COMPLETELY ignore. I have been watching all of Daima with my partner who has never watched anything Dragon Ball before outside of 1 or 2 episodes of Z when she was a child, and she was asking me "is there a reason they can't use super saiyan?" as if she was missing something.

[Yuji]

A lot of people (mainly on Twitter) were complaining how these weapons and tanks are doing more damage to our heroes, but I like how it doesn't make it a total cakewalk for them.

Except it is a cakewalk for them

Goku shows that at the end of the episode when he finally decides to use his brain and just easily defeat them just annoyed how it took 20 minutes for him to realize that

And that would be boring. If Goku and Vegeta could one-shot the army in seconds, where's the tension and excitement in that?

But... they CAN defeat the army in seconds. Either write it so they can't defeat the army even using their strongest forms, or don't have them as an obstacle at all. This isn't a martial arts fight anymore, holding back 90% of their power for no reason is indeed just poor writing.

[The Monkey King]

After seeing Goku get downed by lasers (lmao) this has made me think that Dragon Ball Daima should've been set just after the King Piccolo arc instead.

Have KP's death cause some Demon Realm BS that Goku is tasked to solve because he killed him.

"But what about Vegeta!?"

Bulma gets fed up with Yamcha and wishes that her true love appears, boom there's Vegeta.

He would also journey to the Demon Realm with Goku because he's also a saiyan and he wants to use the demon realm Dragon Balls

"But what about the power levels!?"

The Demon Realm "Bad Air" messes with ki manipulation similar to Majin Buu's "Bad air" messing with potara fusion.

Without some memory wiping or time travel stuff this would make the story non-canon but who really cares at this point?

[Yuji]

After seeing Goku get downed by lasers (lmao) this has made me think that Dragon Ball Daima should've been set just after the King Piccolo arc instead

My rewrite would be just having Goten & Trunks march through the demon realm in slapstick hijink fashion (accompanied by Shin).



But this works too. Before the Tamagami episode aired, I thought they all got reverted to part 1 battle powers.

But truthfully this just seems like they wrote a different adventure comedy and slapped Dragon Ball characters on it

[Jord]

After seeing Goku get downed by lasers (lmao) this has made me think that Dragon Ball Daima should've been set just after the King Piccolo arc instead.

That's actually a great idea.

[YamiGoku]

In all my years as a fan I never expected to drop a Dragon Ball series, but as sad as it is to me, after the last few episodes I can say it was the right decision, this crap is so bad all it did is filled me with negative thoughts.


My way of following the remaining of this dumpster fire science the giants episode has been watching a short summary review Goresh(DB content creator) does after every episode, he has been positive for the most part about Daima but even him has said that Daima wastes time a lot, and his not a fan of the last 3 episodes.

If something cool ever happens I'll just watch the clip on youtube, other than that, I'm done. O7

[Gaffer Tape]

I feel like a lot of modern Dragon Ball stories have contained what I consider to be the "breaking point," the point where I realize that things are totally off the rails or that it's just never gonna get good. For ToP, it was Jiren's team running out the clock to vomit out his backstory when their side was losing. For Granolah, it was when the fight resumed after the Bardock flashback, and I realized that this story was just going to be one long boring ENDLESS fight. And for Daima, it was this episode. This episode was my breaking point. And it's not even that the episode as a whole was categorically bad. It was just this one thing...

My biggest issue with this series from day 1 was how inelegantly it handles exposition. Episode 1 was an absolute disaster because they spent 10 whole minutes needlessly recapping The Boo Arc. And since then it has felt the need to stop and explain absolutely everything, but it's never been as bad as it was in episode 1. It gave me hope that things were getting better... until now. I did not think they could actually get worse than episode 1, but, by gum did they succeed. It wasn't bad enough having characters pointlessly monologue at each other? Now we have to have a random voice in my head do it? Seriously, who was that? It wasn't even the show's narrator. I could barely pay attention to what was being said (not that most of it wasn't stuff we already knew) because I was searching my brain trying to figure out if this was supposed to be a character I recognized. This show has never been good at conveying information, but I never expected it to jump off the rails this severely.

Yeah, I don't care about the issues with the fighting. To me, it was... fine. Not great. Not terrible. I never even notice anymore when characters are Super Saiyan or not because who cares? I thought the EMP-esque devices were a good enough justification to create a hint of drama. I'll take nearly any justification to make the fights even remotely interesting or tense. It was fine. It's fine. But I do wish the show could be better than fine. I was still hoping it would end soon. Someone else mentioned it, but I had the same amused reaction when the King's ship blew up, and the music just cut out. I don't think it was intended to be hilarious, but it was for me!

Finally, I had so many people on my channel get mad at me in episode 6 for speculating on Shin's exposition about gender through a trans/gender-diverse lens. Seriously, I lost 60 subscribers that day. And now... it sure seems to me like Degesu transitioned this episode! I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who here thinks "Woman in Weird Hat" is Degesu. Like, it has to be, right? That had me excited! That's the only thing that makes sense, that makes that earlier exposition have a meaning, right? Oh, who am I kidding? Since when has the exposition in this series mattered? Sigh... At any rate, I thought that scene was fun. Hybis is always a delight, even if he is basically metrosexual Yajirobe. However, I didn't feel much tension, and that's because I still don't really know what the big deal is about the Third Eye, not to the point that I truly understand the stakes. I mean, I'm sure we all know it's just a generic MORE POWER/transformation device because that's all this franchise seems to know how to do to increase danger.

Yeah, this episode broke me. I hate that it did because I was really excited about this show. But I really don't think it's going to stick the landing at this point. I hope I'm wrong.

[AliTheZombie13]

And now... it sure seems to me like Degesu transitioned this episode! I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who here thinks "Woman in Weird Hat" is Degesu. Like, it has to be, right? That had me excited! That's the only thing that makes sense, that makes that earlier exposition have a meaning, right? Oh, who am I kidding? Since when has the exposition in this series mattered? Sigh...

Yes, the girl is Degesu. It's the same skin tone, the same awkward personality, the hesitancy at kissing Hybis, it can only be Degesu... right?

[Gaffer Tape]

And now... it sure seems to me like Degesu transitioned this episode! I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who here thinks "Woman in Weird Hat" is Degesu. Like, it has to be, right? That had me excited! That's the only thing that makes sense, that makes that earlier exposition have a meaning, right? Oh, who am I kidding? Since when has the exposition in this series mattered? Sigh...

Yes, the girl is Degesu. It's the same skin tone, the same awkward personality, the hesitancy at kissing Hybis, it can only be Degesu... right?

I hope so, but I had a few friends suggest the possibility that it might have been someone working under him. And working away from that perspective, I could see it as the show faking us out, planting a seed about the Gurindo choosing their gender identity at will so that we think Degesu has the eye, only to pull the rug out from under us and throw in a whole new player at the last second. That might be interesting... maybe

Clearly, though, I'm just really worried about assuming this and being wrong. If I get a bunch of angry transphobic chuds chewing me out for "bringing wokeness into *their* Dragon Ball," I at least want to be right!

[StaticMania]

...I'm too tired.

---

Only 3 things of note, I guess.

1. Oh look, it's weapons that would've made the police an actual threat in the first half of the series. Cool.

2. Wow, it's an explanation to justify why Piccolo died after blocking Nappa's blast. Obvious, but some people do need the spoon feeding.

3. Hybis actually did have the 3rd eye...ok. Of course we then just happen to get narration and a flashback out of nowhere for this information.

---

If anything, I wish I watched this when I was more awake. Glad those castle character designs didn't go to waste...I guess, but then I also would have thought the Police Sentai were going to be the turning point of the battle.

Hopefully it's not another whole episode conflict.

[JulieYBM]

And now... it sure seems to me like Degesu transitioned this episode! I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who here thinks "Woman in Weird Hat" is Degesu. Like, it has to be, right? That had me excited! That's the only thing that makes sense, that makes that earlier exposition have a meaning, right? Oh, who am I kidding? Since when has the exposition in this series mattered? Sigh...

Yes, the girl is Degesu. It's the same skin tone, the same awkward personality, the hesitancy at kissing Hybis, it can only be Degesu... right?

I hope so, but I had a few friends suggest the possibility that it might have been someone working under him. And working away from that perspective, I could see it as the show faking us out, planting a seed about the Gurindo choosing their gender identity at will so that we think Degesu has the eye, only to pull the rug out from under us and throw in a whole new player at the last second. That might be interesting... maybe

Clearly, though, I'm just really worried about assuming this and being wrong. If I get a bunch of angry transphobic chuds chewing me out for "bringing wokeness into *their* Dragon Ball," I at least want to be right!

The best thing about getting older is that I can tell transphobes to go fuck themselves, because I've been in this fandom longer than they have lol

But yes, there is no way that Girl in Big Hat isn't Degesu. My beautiful boykissing queen.

When your man says "figure it out" and you decide, "I need to become a cute girl!" there is only one logical explanation for this line of logic.

We support you girly, come on out of that closet for realsies! >_<

[goku the krump dancer]

The girl had grey/blue skin and Degesu has pink skin. And seeing as though she was a little taken a back by her kiss being rejected, I think it’s safe to she has a history of seducing dudes and usually being successful. Glinds as far we know outside of Old Kai don’t really have the mortal instinct to want to do huggy kissy stuff even if it’s just a means to an end though that’d be fine if that was the case because they’d know what makes mortals “tic”.

If Vegeta was the only one struggling with the laser barrage that’d make some since because he had to look after Bulma. Everyone had the capacity to fight back full stop but chose not too because??? It’s not like they were on a stealth mission.

Piccolo was willing to Meat Shield himself in order to distract the troops BEFORE attempting to “Hellzone Grenade”

Goku doesn’t immediately go SS after realizing that a direct hit from a demon laser gun can be lethal especially in their pint sized bodies. Then Vegeta has the same Brain fart, also Piccolo was willing to sacrifice his limbs even though the hits are gonna have a greater effect on their kid bodies?!

[Zephyr]

The writers of GT have discussed this problem before the series started.
The characters have already reached the peak of their power. They need to be weaker, otherwise, there's no (believable and/or engaging) story. What is the fun of watching characters who are already at their pinnacle relearn the same lessons they've been taught before, effortlessly obliterate whatever is on their path, or relive the same old "Oh no, I forgot to train again, now I'm weaker than Cell!"

So, pick your poison. Personally, I'd rather the characters just get nerfed.
Wouldn't it just be more interesting seeing characters who were once smug about how powerful they were struggle to adjust to a lower level?

I mean, "they reached the peak of their power", if that is in fact true, is a pretty good reason to simply not make a new chapter in a story about getting stronger.

Having some plot element physically weaken them, so that they can again work towards reaching that peak of power, is still retreading already-trodden ground. Yes, it's good to have these characters on the backfoot again, but that's just as easily accomplished through expanding the world into new areas with new opponents, such as different planets, different timelines, different universes, or, dare I say, a primordial realm full of demons that is actually the font of creation itself.

Besides, it's a completely arbitrary decision whether they indeed have reached their peak. And it's one that gets made and subsequently taken back so many times. These people reach their limits, they hit a wall, and then they find a way to break through and move past that wall, often through bizarre means; wear some weighted turtle shells, drink some magical poison, work yourself to near-death, optimize a prophesied alien transformation, combine bodies with your rival, summon the spirit of an ancestor, merge methods, etc. Toriyama wanted to end things with Boo because he couldn't think of a way to make them any stronger.....only to come back a couple decades later and make them stronger, and stronger. Even GT continued to make characters stronger, despite turning Goku into a kid.

[fadeddreams5]

Daima is on the verge of losing me.

I can't stand the lack of stakes.
I can't stand the bullshit of Goku and Vegeta not going Super Saiyan and just ending the conflict when they know they can, only to turn Super Saiyan at the very end of the episode.
I can't stand the lack of character development among the cast of new characters
I really can't stand how characters like Piccolo, Kaioshin and Bulma are literally just cardboard cutouts at this stage instead of characters who actually contribute to the plot in any significant way.

Daima has five episodes left. Why is this show insistent on wasting time with Goku and the gang twiddling their thumbs with a total non-threat of a fodder army? Give Glorio a character arc. Build more on Pansy's characterisation and utility. Or why not spend more time with Arinsu and develop her more as a villain?

The more I go back and rewatch Daima, the more I think Toriyama wrote this series to be a mini-series that lasted no more than 10 episodes but was then stretched out to last double that length to get the most out of the original plot outline because there are just too many episodes where the plot will just come to a screeching halt to pad out the runtime with unnecessarily dragged-out fighting scenes or lore dumping.

I will say this... I do find some genuine morbid hilarity in the show emphasising the importance and danger of The Third Eye, only for it to end up as a belt buckle and then traded for a giant hat.

But... yeah... this episode sums up why Daima is losing me... it wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants the charm of early Dragon Ball (Kid Goku), but at the same time, it doesn't want to abandon the iconography that Dragon Ball is known for (Super Saiyan) or disregard the marketing opportunity of Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta with a new hat (SSJ Kid Goku and SSJ3 Kid Vegeta). But at the same time, it doesn't want to create too many similarities with the other Dragon Ball anime that had a significant character aged down (GT), so it ignores the narrative crutches that the show introduced with the ageing down process. But that ironically creates even more issues with the plot, especially since Daima never addresses the case having any difficulty of the cast transforming. Like, if Daima and Super don't exist in the same continuity (which Daima has strongly implied is the case) why not bring Gohan along with them? He's the strongest non-fused character in the show. He'd be far more useful in combat than Goku or Vegeta and he doesn't need to transform either.

This is a show that has an identity crisis. I just hope the last few episodes are at least superficially entertaining.

I came to vent here, but you basically said everything I wanted to. It's very strange to me that these characters can defeat Tamagamis one minute, and then struggle against random henchman and adolescent giants the next. And every time they struggle, they fail to use SSJ. So do these child bodies make them that much weaker, or not? The show doesn't know what it wants to do.

And now... it sure seems to me like Degesu transitioned this episode! I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who here thinks "Woman in Weird Hat" is Degesu. Like, it has to be, right? That had me excited! That's the only thing that makes sense, that makes that earlier exposition have a meaning, right? Oh, who am I kidding? Since when has the exposition in this series mattered? Sigh...

Yes, the girl is Degesu. It's the same skin tone, the same awkward personality, the hesitancy at kissing Hybis, it can only be Degesu... right?

Degesu's skin is purple. She was blue, and upset over being rejected, as thought this is a first. I thought for sure that hat was Majin Duu coiled up too. Maybe a part of him.