Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 15 - Official Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Rewatched the episode today, and it struck me as odd that Dabra had that scheme to "hide" the eye instead of just using it himself. I'd be worried the bug man might use it against me, or that someone could find its hiding spot.

He didn't need to use it since he deposed his father without it.
We don't know how strong someone gets or even if everyone can wield it. Removing far from likely the only person that could utilize it against him seems like a sensible decision.

[Zephyr]

He didn't need to use it since he deposed his father without it.
We don't know how strong someone gets or even if everyone can wield it. Removing far from likely the only person that could utilize it against him seems like a sensible decision.

True, it's possible that it's only usable by certain people under specific circumstances. I guess we'll see to what extent that is the case when it does get used by someone in the coming episodes.

Besides, I swear you or someone else made a point that Super Saiyan 3 is never supposed to be portrayed as physically taxing in Toriyama’s works after the Buu arc?

You might be mixing this up with me complaining that 3 isn't really portrayed as especially physically taxing after the Boo arc. People just bust it out in GT, Super, and Daima as if it wasn't so inefficient that Goku killed Boo with a Genki Dama instead.

Uhh, how much more specific did they need to get? That's a pretty clear-cut statement, and it's obvious to me (particularly from the show's first half) that Toriyama was indeed majorly involved with the story direction and script – right down to granular details such as the character interactions and comedic timing.

We're never gonna have super detailed nitty gritty insight as to how specific story decisions were made. I'd argue we still don't have enough of it for the original manga, let alone Toriyama's modern work.

I'm aware we'll never get all that nitty gritty insight, but my point is that we would need such nitty gritty insight to conclude that Toriyama wanted them to do this exact flashback at this exact moment in this exact way.

Because while Toriyama provided ideas and designs, he is not the one executing those. Other people are. It is absolutely not clear how much of a hand he had in how any specific thing was executed. As a result, I can't personally agree with the conclusion that this flashback was executed to Toriyama's specific wishes; it could have been, and that's be really neat, but that's not an inference that seems sensible to me. If it seems sensible to others (in this case Logan), that is fine! I'm just trying to explain why we can't act like Daima is just all Toriyama, especially some of the nitty gritty stuff that to me seems really obviously like something he'd be leaving up to the TV staff.

In reality, we're not acting like Daima is all Toriyama, because whenever Daima does something we don't like it's all too easy to point at the Toei boogeyman. Now suddenly Toriyama's not handling all of the granular details that seem more like they'd be up to the people actually making the TV show. Not that this is universally the case; for some, when Daima's bad it's because they're doing what Toriyama wanted, and when it's good it's because the creatives at Toei are finally getting to spread their wings. I just think it's a bit more complicated than that, and that the line separating the "good" in Daima from the "bad" isn't the same line that separates Toriyama's contributions from those of Toei and Kakihara.

[nineko]

With all the retcons, I wonder if they're going to say that this third eye and Tenshinhan's third eye are both variants of a more general line of third eyes.

[AliTheZombie13]

I really don't care whose fault it is, Daima is just not a good show.
The inclusion or lack of Toriyama input changes nothing about my opinion.
And honestly, speculating over whose fault it is it turned out this way is rather pointless.
Daima was a collaborative effort, not a "one person did this." Everyone had a little bit of fault there.

[JulieYBM]

I really don't care whose fault it is, Daima is just not a good show.
The inclusion or lack of Toriyama input changes nothing about my opinion.
And honestly, speculating over whose fault it is it turned out this way is rather pointless.
Daima was a collaborative effort, not a "one person did this." Everyone had a little bit of fault there.

They're legally obligated to basically follow Toriyama's demands, assuming he had a heavy hand in altering the scripts.

Which is whatever, I'm not calling Daima good, it's just that a production like this is a lot more complicated than, "Everyone is at fault" or whatever.

[AliTheZombie13]

Which is whatever, I'm not calling Daima good, it's just that a production like this is a lot more complicated than, "Everyone is at fault" or whatever.

Still, I'm sure Toriyama wasn't handling the series composition, the episode scripts, etc.
He might've given ideas for the story, the characters. In that case, that Daima turned out lacking in these areas is his fault. But that everyone else involved didn't make a better effort to make sure his ideas were incorporated well and didn't drag the show for so much is also their fault. I seriously doubt Toriyama demanded they, for example, "Goku and Vegeta must stall Super Saiyan for as long as possible until the episode is over!"

At best, he said, "There must be an entire episode where they fight the Gandermansdfkasdf." And the writers made no effort to make that vague-ass idea interesting.

[JulieYBM]

Which is whatever, I'm not calling Daima good, it's just that a production like this is a lot more complicated than, "Everyone is at fault" or whatever.

Still, I'm sure Toriyama wasn't handling the series composition, the episode scripts, etc.
He might've given ideas for the story, the characters. In that case, that Daima turned out lacking in these areas is his fault. But that everyone else involved didn't make a better effort to make sure his ideas were incorporated well and didn't drag the show for so much is also their fault. I seriously doubt Toriyama demanded they, for example, "Goku and Vegeta must stall Super Saiyan for as long as possible until the episode is over!"

At best, he said, "There must be an entire episode where they fight the Gandermansdfkasdf." And the writers made no effort to make that vague-ass idea interesting.

No, but it's not impossible for him to be sent PDFs or to even Zoom in or whatever.

Kakihara writes every script, but that also doesn't mean that what we're seeing is her script adapted to screen faithfully, either.

[Jord]

I think these things are always tricky since we don't know to what depth Toriyama was involved and who is responsible for every creative choice.

[Mr Baggins]

While I normally side with you, Baggins, I think this is the episode that made me concede on many of its issues.

Hey, man, that's totally fair. We may not concur for the same reasons, but there's no question this is easily the weakest episode in the series.

As I said in my first post ITT, the fact that they spent an entire episode (not a quarter of an episode, not even half an episode, but a whole damn episode) on random mooks this late in the show is worrying. There's a time and place for adventuring and shenanigans; the First Demon World is very explicitly neither of those things, or at least shouldn't be for half an hour.

Was it Toei's call? Toriyama's? Who knows? Could certainly be Toriyama's, as there are at least a couple of scenes here that felt 100% Toriyama, but it doesn't matter. What's done is done.

However, I also think it speaks volumes that even an episode like this still has plenty of things to enjoy. I've yet to watch a single one where I threw my arms up and was like "yeah, this sucks". The series in general is heads and shoulders above TV Super or utterly vapid shit like the Granolah arc, for me. I just hope that, as you said, the climax/ending lands instead of crashing. Time will tell if it's going to effectively resolve everything it's been setting up for its final 5 episodes.

We'll see. Hopefully the last leg of this ride isn't a bumpy one.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Not a terrible episode (solid art and animation, if unspectacular by Daima standards, and nice touches here and there), but an extremely perplexing one.

Even if one sees no problem with the Gendarmerie suddenly becoming an opponent that can cause the team trouble (but would it have been very hard to plant this seed in one of the umpteen mook fights we've already had? Have Goku catch a stray bolt and get seriously hurt, or something?), it was still deeply weird to get nearly half an episode of the team essentially hiding behind a rock and wringing their hands over what to do about the hurty pew-pews. Not the approach we've come to expect at all. What's more, it absolutely cut across the climactic "storming into the First Demon World!" vibe Episode 14 left us with, and killed that momentum stone dead.

Interesting enough though it was, I'm also puzzled as to why the Third Eye background explanation stuff only comes in now - I feel like it would've been much better placed in Episode 1 (y'know, where setting things up is natural). It's not like it's a tough set of ideas that needs a lot more context to grasp properly or anything, and since they already saw fit to put in a 10-minute Buu arc expository flashback then they may as well have gone for broke and put that in too. It doesn't do anything here that it couldn't do there.

Basically, I came away feeling like this was a 'spare' episode rather than anything much integral to the story or a compelling experience; almost all the necessary content here could've been heavily truncated and/or folded in elsewhere without causing issues. If we needed an episode that just makes up the numbers, I'd rather have had another chill exploration episode in the Second Demon World, in exchange for a much tighter viewing experience for what was apparently supposed to kick off the climax to the series.

[kemuri07]

While I normally side with you, Baggins, I think this is the episode that made me concede on many of its issues.

However, I also think it speaks volumes that even an episode like this still has plenty of things to enjoy. I've yet to watch a single one where I threw my arms up and was like "yeah, this sucks". The series in general is heads and shoulders above TV Super or utterly vapid shit like the Granolah arc, for me. I just hope that, as you said, the climax/ending lands instead of crashing. Time will tell if it's going to effectively resolve everything it's been setting up for its final 5 episodes.

We'll see. Hopefully the last leg of this ride isn't a bumpy one.

I don't really agree that the only way this could have been good if the show was "soul shattering" with "in-depth character arcs" to be good. Entertaining is just fine, and I think so far that's what Daima has been able to do; I have no interest in judging it based on something it has
no interest in being. If Daima in these final episodes can give me more of what it has been giving me, then I think I can walk away pretty satisfied.

And yes I agree, I've been enjoying Daima way more than I have either Super adaptation. A low bar for sure, but I agree with that.

[FinalForumPodcast]

Does anyone else feel like they spent a lot of time TALKING about the Third Eye but didn't SAY anything?

It's...the thing that made Abura the ruler for...reasons....and Dabura wanted it...for reasons...it "makes you powerful" but...in what way? Wasn't that something we could have surmised already from Gomah wanting it in the first place? We got a big ole "lore" dump but none of it was IMPORTANT or impactful or helped me understand anything. It was just...lore.


Episodes 14 and 15 have soured me a lot on a show I was mostly enjoying. The structure and pacing issues are coming home to roost and it's all sitting on very shaky ground right now...and with only 5 episodes left, it seems unlikely anything gets any GOOD resolution and most things just get blitzed through (ie: we're never going to really UNDERSTAND the Third Eye...Gomah or Degesu or Arinsu or Kuu or Duu or...someone will get it, it will make them the big bad for half an episode, and then they'll get punched into submission; the end) and the whole thing will feel perfunctory. And I guess that probably would have been fine if this had been a short web series like it was original envisioned, but to expand it to a 20 episode show and do seemingly nothing other than add filler episodes to make it longer and not actually improve the structure or storytelling is a bummer.

[StaticMania]

It made Abra the king because it gives him power...

Dabra wants the eye, to depower the king; his father, and overthrow him...

He sends the eye away so that his potential heir or anyone else can't steal the eye and use it against him...

---

Ignoring the specific nitty gritty details that don't matter, it's just a logical series of events.

How does the Oculus grant power? Is it a flat strength boost, does it make one invincible, does it boost magic? Who knows, we'll see when it gets used later on.

That's worth saving the deets on.

[Koitsukai]

Does anyone else feel like they spent a lot of time TALKING about the Third Eye but didn't SAY anything?

It's...the thing that made Abura the ruler for...reasons....and Dabura wanted it...for reasons...it "makes you powerful" but...in what way? Wasn't that something we could have surmised already from Gomah wanting it in the first place? We got a big ole "lore" dump but none of it was IMPORTANT or impactful or helped me understand anything. It was just...lore.

Yeah, pretty much. If the episode is stopped in its tracks like that, then I expect to know something meaty, not things that could be brought up casually by the characters.
None of what was revealed required pausing the episode to speak directly to the audience. The Eye is a King's item? we sorta knew that. How or when it got lost doesn't really matter. Dabura having any part in it is also inconsequential.
We only learned how the Eye's last few centuries were like, but we don't know where it came from, what makes it so powerful. Not that any of that is of importance, but if we are stopping traffic for the Eye, then you make the audience expect something massive.

The effects of the Eye will be revealed soon, so I don't mind the vague "it powers you up greatly" part.

[FinalForumPodcast]

Does anyone else feel like they spent a lot of time TALKING about the Third Eye but didn't SAY anything?

It's...the thing that made Abura the ruler for...reasons....and Dabura wanted it...for reasons...it "makes you powerful" but...in what way? Wasn't that something we could have surmised already from Gomah wanting it in the first place? We got a big ole "lore" dump but none of it was IMPORTANT or impactful or helped me understand anything. It was just...lore.

Yeah, pretty much. If the episode is stopped in its tracks like that, then I expect to know something meaty, not things that could be brought up casually by the characters.
None of what was revealed required pausing the episode to speak directly to the audience. The Eye is a King's item? we sorta knew that. How or when it got lost doesn't really matter. Dabura having any part in it is also inconsequential.
We only learned how the Eye's last few centuries were like, but we don't know where it came from, what makes it so powerful. Not that any of that is of importance, but if we are stopping traffic for the Eye, then you make the audience expect something massive.

The effects of the Eye will be revealed soon, so I don't mind the vague "it powers you up greatly" part.

Right. Lots of talking, very little said.


They ground the episode to a halt and did a big "dump" of information but none of that information was consequential, and it was mostly stuff that you could infer from how bad Gomah wanted the eye.

And the action we did get was just like, the 5th different fight against a bunch of mooks the show has given us. There's not really been anything...personal(?) attached to these fights.

He sends the eye away so that his potential heir or anyone else can't steal the eye and use it against him...

It got lost during the attempted heist, not sent away...

...right?

[StaticMania]

Dabra told the little cockroach dude to take it to the 3rd Demon World for whatever reason...

And then dude lost the eye because he died, mission accomplished. He was probably meant to sell it, but the end result's the same.

[IntangibleFancy]

Do you guys have any hopes for the next episode? How do you expect it to go down?

Does anyone else feel like they spent a lot of time TALKING about the Third Eye but didn't SAY anything?

It's...the thing that made Abura the ruler for...reasons....and Dabura wanted it...for reasons...it "makes you powerful" but...in what way? Wasn't that something we could have surmised already from Gomah wanting it in the first place? We got a big ole "lore" dump but none of it was IMPORTANT or impactful or helped me understand anything. It was just...lore.

Yeah, pretty much. If the episode is stopped in its tracks like that, then I expect to know something meaty, not things that could be brought up casually by the characters.
None of what was revealed required pausing the episode to speak directly to the audience. The Eye is a King's item? we sorta knew that. How or when it got lost doesn't really matter. Dabura having any part in it is also inconsequential.
We only learned how the Eye's last few centuries were like, but we don't know where it came from, what makes it so powerful. Not that any of that is of importance, but if we are stopping traffic for the Eye, then you make the audience expect something massive.

The effects of the Eye will be revealed soon, so I don't mind the vague "it powers you up greatly" part.

I liked that they showed us the demon kings, it was pretty much the only saving grace of the flashback…but then they made them silhouettes. As soon as I got a chance to think about it, I realized it doesn’t make much sense. Even if we’re assuming the unlikely possibility of them saving them for a future arc, it still isn’t like dragon ball to just hold designs hostage like One Piece. I’m pretty sure they have before, but they quickly showed who it was. And Rymus, who’s just as important, if not more, wasn’t behind a silhouette, either. Idk it’s just weird to me.

On a related note, I really wish they at least revealed if it changed their bodies like a transformation.

[JulieYBM]

Do you guys have any hopes for the next episode? How do you expect it to go down?

Degesu will come out as a woman and kick the shit out of Gokuu and friends, then convince Gomah to marry her and stop being a weirdo about everything, thus restoring peace to the demon realm.

[AliTheZombie13]

Do you guys have any hopes for the next episode? How do you expect it to go down?

Degesu will use the power of the EVIL THIRD EYE OH NO OMFG against the heroes. They will pretend to get their asses kicked for 20 minutes, then Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo will pull a transformation out of their asses and win effortlessly, probably SSJ3 Goku.

As an added bonus, the Special Forces Brazil will show up, get their asses kicked, then die along with Gomah, but Daima has never been a big fan of solving two things in a single episode, so maybe just the Degesu plot.

[LoganForkHands73]

*snip*

I'm too lazy to address this quote-by-quote, so I'll do most of it here.

You're right that it's a matter of interpretation. But between Goku initially using it in such a brief burst against Kadan's guards and Vegeta being offered a Revive Bug despite not seeming worse for wear, I don't see any interpretation holding up outside of some energy expenditure when using these forms. I'd find the conservation reasoning (and likewise, those two scenes) harder to swallow if they were adults, but it's repeatedly made clear in the show that their new bodies hamper them in some way. Seems like a safe bet to me, and not one that we can easily write off.

My statement elsewhere about Super Saiyan 3 is that it's probably no longer a major issue for them, not that it doesn't consume stamina at all. Every stage of Super Saiyan is progressively more taxing. The relativity here is important.

I mean, I think we’re all basically in agreement that the battle had issues, so I don’t get why there always has to be an “actual” issue that somehow invalidates the other related criticisms (with this one in particular, there’s a whiff of “look at these surface-level fanboys complaining about this when they should be complaining about *this*”) .

My point is less that any complaint about fake tension is meritless or invalidated by another complaint, and more just casting doubt on the notion that inserting some line of text "explaining" things would have even remotely alleviated why people view the fight as a waste of time. I don't mean to police what they should be criticizing, but I'm definitely not all that convinced it's the culprit behind why this didn't work, personally.

But also, nothing in Daima is going to be genuinely tense. That ship sailed way back when they decided to once again sandwich the story between Buu and EoZ.

Sorry for the delay, busy week. It’s one of those things I could have an easier time swallowing if they made it clearer from an earlier point that transforming was now an issue. Admittedly, I believed that was where they were going with it in the earlier episodes, but by the Tamagami No. 3 fight with liberal use of Super Saiyan 2, I reoriented to see that it wasn’t gonna be a repeat of GT in that regard.

I don’t think the battle necessarily had to be viewed as a waste of time. As I said in this thread, it had potential to be the first stage of a thrilling climax. It’s the lacklustre presentation that killed the momentum. Besides, Daima has not been shy about overexplaining trivial details, would one more really hurt?

Lastly, knowing the overall outcome doesn’t mean a story has to limit its own tension. That applies to prequels, interquels and standalone works in equal measure. Great stories remain tense even when you’ve seen them a hundred times.