Super or Daima

[SupremeKai25]

how is it dumb?

The ability for your body to react for you is an interesting concept

In the anime, Ultra Instinct is awakened by Goku tanking a Genki Dama... That's a ridiculously dumb and contrived way to solve the massive gap between him and Jiren, especially when you take into account what the technique actually does. I really don't understand the logic that Goku getting hit with a Genki Dama in his face somehow translates to him learning to let his body dodge beyond relying on his senses and somehow gives him a massive power boost? It makes me question, if Goku had lost the struggle to Boo, would he also unlock some super secret special technique that the audience was completely unaware of?

I find it much more believable than Goku turning into a giant Oozaru because the Earth suddenly has the same light as the moon (how convenient, what are the odds?) and Bulma creating some bullshit machine that can mimic the moon's light (seriously, how convenient).

Toei has a penchant for the dramatic and the rule of cool, and this most certainly didn't start with Super. I don't believe the way Goku gets Ultra Instinct is particularly nonsensical, especially when compared to the weird stuff going on in GT and the old DBZ movies, where there's weird nonsense like Goku as a ghost (????) giving Gohan and Goten enough power to obliterate Broly who was crushing them just 5 seconds earlier (????).

[AliTheZombie13]

[...]

I'm sorry you're so insecure about your favorite anime ever, but bringing up irrelevant flaws in the original manga (or GT or the Z movies in this instance) every single time someone dares to criticize it won't do Super (or you) any favors.

[SupremeKai25]

[...]

I'm sorry you're so insecure about your favorite anime ever, but bringing up irrelevant flaws in the original manga (or GT or the Z movies in this instance) every single time someone dares to criticize it won't do Super (or you) any favors.

I'm sorry you decided to ignore my argument just to randomly use ad-hominem. I was hoping to have a serious discussion about how it's Toei's modus operandi to make drastic plot twists that stretch the imagination just to look cool, but apparently you're not interested. What a shame.

But I have to say, it's quite funny that when Super has some stuff that requires mental gymnastics and to stretch the imagination it's intolerable and ruins the show, but when older material has it, it's just "irrelevant details".

[AliTheZombie13]

I was hoping to have a serious discussion about how it's Toei's modus operandi to-

Completely irrelevant to the topic here.

The Genki-dama is a sphere of pure genki from other fighters. Becoming immersed in it and shocked by it during a critical moment mid-battle is a pretty good explanation for how it could have prepped Gokuu for learning how to use Ultra Instinct.

You have to think of the principle. If the most powerful technique used to defeat the last bad guy of the previous series, one that the show made a serious deal of dramatizing that the main character was in serious risk of dying if something was not done to reverse the situation, can just get shrugged off like that and instead of brutally dissolving him can give him a massive power boost, then why should I take anything else in this franchise seriously? Fake tension isn't fun.

I feel like Toyotaro also had to agree with my sentiments if he chose to change things around in the manga.

[JulieYBM]

I was hoping to have a serious discussion about how it's Toei's modus operandi to-

Completely irrelevant to the topic here.

The Genki-dama is a sphere of pure genki from other fighters. Becoming immersed in it and shocked by it during a critical moment mid-battle is a pretty good explanation for how it could have prepped Gokuu for learning how to use Ultra Instinct.

You have to think of the principle. If the most powerful technique used to defeat the last bad guy of the previous series, one that the show made a serious deal of dramatizing that the main character was in serious risk of dying if something was not done to reverse the situation, can just get shrugged off like that and instead of brutally dissolving him can give him a massive power boost, then why should I take anything else in this franchise seriously? Fake tension isn't fun.

I feel like Toyotaro also had to agree with my sentiments about if he chose to change things around in the manga.

The Saiyan arc established that those that are pure of heart are unharmed by the Genki-dama, it's why Gokuu was able to transfer the residual genki to Kuririn and then why Gohan was able to bounce it back at Vegeta.

"A direct infusion of genki from a bunch of guys who are martial artists shocks Gokuu's body and spirit into a fugue state" really isn't that impossible to foresee as a plausible explanation.

Gokuu then spends the next, what, 22 episodes getting his ass kicked around by Jiren on-and-off?

[Yuji]

My distaste towards it only got amplified the minute I remembered that Goku, by all means, already learned all of this by training with Mr. Popo and Kami. I still remember light as day complaining about this very fact on the Internet, only to get lambasted by the fandom, and then having the manga basically confirm my suspicious by having Master Roshi explicitly tell the audience that Goku has, in fact, gotten dumber and forgotten all the training he's ever had with his previous masters, and he should already know all of this.

I don't see why this is an issue. A lot of great fighters have to return to basics after they've drilled bad habits that cost them a fight. In Goku's case, part 2's ever-escalating powerlevel struggles have narrowed strength down to be all about simple raw power and brute strength. Goku may have been more skilled than his opponents but all fights were won by channeling the bigger Ki in-universe for decades now. When faced with the literal personification of Z's concept of strength, he has to revisit his lessons to get a clearer picture of how he can evolve as a martial artist. The aesthetic transformation, as all good transformations in Dragon Ball do, is a visual representation of that mindset change.

Dragon Ball has a nasty habit of making characters forget easy lessons or relapse for the sake of retelling a story when they're out of stories to tell, but I don't think crafting a character arc that shows realistic flaws in Goku's martial arts journey, while imbuing it with meta-commentary about how the series lost its way and is now trying to course-correct and refocus on the more technical aspects of fighting, is the case here.

[AliTheZombie13]

I don't see why this is an issue. A lot of great fighters have to return to basics after they've drilled bad habits that cost them a fight. In Goku's case, part 2's ever-escalating powerlevel struggles have narrowed strength down to be all about simple raw power and brute strength. Goku may have been more skilled than his opponents but all fights were won by channeling the bigger Ki in-universe for decades now. When faced with the literal personification of Z's concept of strength, he has to revisit his lessons to get a clearer picture of how he can evolve as a martial artist. The aesthetic transformation, as all good transformations in Dragon Ball do, is a visual representation of that mindset change.

Dragon Ball has a nasty habit of making characters forget easy lessons or relapse for the sake of retelling a story when they're out of stories to tell, but I don't think crafting a character arc that shows realistic flaws in Goku's martial arts journey, while imbuing it with meta-commentary about how the series lost its way and is now trying to course-correct and refocus on the more technical aspects of fighting, is the case here.

That is, in fact, a great idea. One that neither series (anime/manga) have executed well, IMHO.
By principle, I'm against characters having to relearn things unless there's a very good narrative reason behind it. I've watched a lot of Mexican Soaps that relied heavily on making the character go through the same lessons all over again as a means to artificially extend themselves, it's not pleasant to watch.

If the Tournament of Power was an isolated case, but then we have Super Hero with Goku going, "What? You're meditating?!"

[SupremeKai25]

You have to think of the principle. If the most powerful technique used to defeat the last bad guy of the previous series, one that the show made a serious deal of dramatizing that the main character was in serious risk of dying if something was not done to reverse the situation, can just get shrugged off like that and instead of brutally dissolving him can give him a massive power boost, then why should I take anything else in this franchise seriously? Fake tension isn't fun.

That's like saying "if Goku could always get millions of times stronger by just getting angry at Krillin's death, what was the point of the conflicts in original Dragon Ball?"

It's called "power creep" and it's been a staple of these kind of stories since the very beginning.

[Yuji]

I don't see why this is an issue. A lot of great fighters have to return to basics after they've drilled bad habits that cost them a fight. In Goku's case, part 2's ever-escalating powerlevel struggles have narrowed strength down to be all about simple raw power and brute strength. Goku may have been more skilled than his opponents but all fights were won by channeling the bigger Ki in-universe for decades now. When faced with the literal personification of Z's concept of strength, he has to revisit his lessons to get a clearer picture of how he can evolve as a martial artist. The aesthetic transformation, as all good transformations in Dragon Ball do, is a visual representation of that mindset change.

Dragon Ball has a nasty habit of making characters forget easy lessons or relapse for the sake of retelling a story when they're out of stories to tell, but I don't think crafting a character arc that shows realistic flaws in Goku's martial arts journey, while imbuing it with meta-commentary about how the series lost its way and is now trying to course-correct and refocus on the more technical aspects of fighting, is the case here.

That is, in fact, a great idea. One that neither series (anime/manga) have executed well, IMHO.
By principle, I'm against characters having to relearn things unless there's a very good narrative reason behind it. I've watched a lot of Mexican Soaps that relied heavily on making the character go through the same lessons all over again as a means to artificially extend themselves, it's not pleasant to watch.

If the Tournament of Power was an isolated case, but then we have Super Hero with Goku going, "What? You're meditating?!"

I think you're confusing Toriyama’s forgetfulness with Toyotaro's intent. The UI scene in the manga was written by him, so he has a very deliberate arc in mind - it just builds upon Toriyama's "moving without thinking" principle for UI. Likewise, that meditation line is softened in the manga, to suggest instead Goku is surprised Vegeta of all people is meditating, which suggests that despite the constraints of having to adapt Toriyama's ideas, he recognizes that his vision for the character is different from what Toriyama had intended.

I don’t really think Toriyama's done anything interesting with Goku since BoG, but Toyotaro has.

[AliTheZombie13]

Welp, apologies for derailing the thread.
I've made my points as to why I don't like Ultra Instinct. Ain't gonna force anybody to agree with my dislike of it.
You guys may keep voting.

[dbs fanboy]

Daima is objectively better planned and it feels like a breath of fresh air to have things go back to basic, not too much power creep, more martial art inspired choreography.....etc.

That being said Super was far more entertaining, sure it was heavily flawed, i don't think i'd reccommend the series to anyone who didn't like Dragon ball already, but it did a lot of interesting stuff for it's characters.

This was probably thanks to having a lot of writers trying stuff, it was a mess since there was lack of structure, (which was incredibly noticeable when writers unfamiliar with the franchise wrote an episode) but you had a lot of fun stuff here and there and the universe of Dragon Ball felt so big and alive.

Super also has something that i often see overlooked when discussing it, and it's great character interactions, sure the humor is not as in line with Toriyama as Daima's, but i loved little things like Vegeta being a mentor to Cabba, Goku interacting with Caulifla, Ribrianne's whole thing, Zamasu being so in love with himself, Goku Black becoming incredibly separated from his identity due to Goku's body influence......etc.

Daima has a lovable characters too like Kuu and Duu, but it all feels safe and restrained, Super at least dared to go balls to the wall (as much as it could do being a midquel where no main characters will die).

If we're talking about the shows, i'd see them as equal, like GT, adding the movies tho.........i'd say the Super brand has Daima beat.

Also i don't care what anyone says, having plenty of Db fans join together in Latin America to watch the ToP and Goku's Ultra Instinct breaking the Internet were amazing moments not just for Super but the franchise too, and i believe the show deserves it's recognition for that.

[SupremeKai25]

Daima is objectively better planned

Do you mean from a doylist perspective (aka from the perspective of production, it wasn't in the works for just a few months) or from a watsonian perspective (aka from the perspective of the story/writing)?

Because the Super storyline seems much better planned to me. I mean Ultra Instinct was foreshadowed as far back as RoF, three arcs before its official debut. What other form had 3 ARCS worth of foreshadowing?

I find Super a much better planned and cohesive than it's given credit for.

[Jord]

Daima is coherent but boring.
I can see how people enjoy it but it's not for me. It's just too slow.

Super has more action but worse writing that relies heavily on nostalgia and bad writing.
-You know how Majin Buu has these unique powers and is a good guy now? Let's barely use that and rely on Goku and Vegeta
-Let's bring Frieza back and make him super strong immediately. Let's bring Android 17 back and make him super strong as well.
-Remember Trunks' bad future? Let's do that again but mix it with the Ginyu power.
-Remember Vegetto? Here he is again, and this time he suddenly has a time limit.
-How should we end this mess that is the Zamasu stuff? Let's have Goku press a magic button on his magic remote to solve the problem.
-You know what would be great for Kid Trunks? A love interest storyline with a mature woman that borders on pedohilia.
-Remember Broly? Well, here is again....but in female form
-Let's do another tournament. Only this one lasts a year (in broadcast time) and there is no tension due to it being a midquel
-We know people like SSJ2 Gohan and Cell. Let's do that again, only take away Cell's personality

Super was pretty bad, but at least it had some cool moments and music. Daima's highlight thus far has been the recap of Z in the first episode.

[Basaku]

Agree with @Jord. The biggest problem of the franchise's modern revival is its self flanderization and leaning way too hard into every trope and even memes possible. For every glimpse of the former greateness (Freeza's shockingly decent new role/angle in the whole ToP setup) we get 10 more wasted oppurtunities, overfocusing on Goku & Vegeta and underutilizing of everyone else.

These mistakes have direct narrative and structural consequences - it's great that Gohan and Piccolo got their new powerups and focus in their own movie, finally someone else than Goku & Vegeta. But the franchise wasted so much time on Goku & Vegeta prior that Gohan and Piccolo's sudden power ups simply end up feeling incredibly rushed and outta nowhere. You can't suddenly rectify major mistakes across previous 130 episodes within just a 120 minutes of the movie screentime, an equivalent of 4 series episodes...

An anniversary series focused on adventure and lower stakes? A perfect opourtunity to develop the actual kid cast of Goten, Trunks and Marron for the future benefit of the franchise? Nope it's Goku & Vegeta show again, with a forced and pointless chibification. An OG DB anniversary homage series with Vegeta, yeah right, even the main excuse why it couldn't be little Goten&Trunks doesn't hold up.

Semi-decently forshadowed and introduced Ultra Instinct/Ultra Ego? Great! But we had to go through 2 asspull recolors first (popping one after another, within the very next movie or just a few following episodes)

Great Roshi tribute in the ToP arc? Amazing, but it's all too little too late after 30 years of wasting Roshi.

Tien should just be retired. If they can't consistiently write him into the cast, then drop him entirely. The scraps he's getting are pointless and demeaning, especially when coming in so late. At least Toriyama knew when to faze out characters that no longer had a purpouse within the story. Especially when we have Boo, who's actualy still very relevant to the plot, sitting on the sidelines with a silly excuse just to make room for weak Tien role? This serves NEITHER of the characters.

Endless Bulma parties once they did that schtick in Yo Songoku! Special... it's like a Monster of the Day serialized Xena/Hercules trope that just won't go away or change up even a little bit

Same with Whis and Beerus training. Enough, it's actively boring now. The original manga always switched up the training masters or setups to keep things moving, progressing and interesting. Goku & Vegeta training with Whis&Beerus became just as much of a flanderized trope of Super as the parties at Bulma, a decade of the same thing. And the fact that they're now homogenizing Broly, Trunks, Goten and Gohan into training there too is just histerically lacking in creativity. Everyone becomes the same copy of Goku&Vegeta, constantly training in the same place, with the same lessons and goals and attending the same Bulma parties after that all blend with each other. I cannot believe that many fans considered THAT a substantial thing for Goten&Trunks to do, after they got a glimpse of a more unique thing and developement for themselves....

The franchise is not only deathly afraid of doing anything that is NOT a done-to-death flanderized and overused trope already. It's scared to even attempt again ITS OWN lil bit less constantly-rehashed ideas from the past that broke the status quo or kept the series moving. Gohan as a lead for longer than 3 episodes? Unthinkable nowadays.... different training masters? Nope. A party somewhere else than at Bulma's? Not in a million years!

[SupremeKai25]

The franchise is not only deathly afraid of doing anything that is NOT a done-to-death flanderized and overused trope already. It's scared to even attempt again ITS OWN lil bit less constantly-rehashed ideas from the past that broke the status quo or kept the series moving. Gohan as a lead for longer than 3 episodes? Unthinkable nowadays.... different training masters? Nope. A party somewhere else than at Bulma's? Not in a million years!

The franchise tried to subvert common tropes and reused ideas by having Infinite Zamasu "win" by killing all the mortals and causing the world's destruction, permanently stranding Future Trunks into another timeline as well as permanently killing off Future Gohan and Future Bulma.

The fandom vehemently hated this ending because they were expecting Trunks to get his Disney happy ending where he kills an immortal (not sure how that's possible, LOL!), saves the world, and uses the Dragon Balls to revive everyone like these people constantly do at the end of an arc. Basically just a boring rehash of the Cell saga instead of the unique ending we (thankfully) got.

[Basaku]

The franchise is not only deathly afraid of doing anything that is NOT a done-to-death flanderized and overused trope already. It's scared to even attempt again ITS OWN lil bit less constantly-rehashed ideas from the past that broke the status quo or kept the series moving. Gohan as a lead for longer than 3 episodes? Unthinkable nowadays.... different training masters? Nope. A party somewhere else than at Bulma's? Not in a million years!

The franchise tried to subvert common tropes and reused ideas by having Infinite Zamasu "win" by killing all the mortals and causing the world's destruction, permanently stranding Future Trunks into another timeline as well as permanently killing off Future Gohan and Future Bulma.

The fandom vehemently hated this ending because they were expecting Trunks to get his Disney happy ending where he kills an immortal (not sure how that's possible, LOL!), saves the world, and uses the Dragon Balls to revive everyone like these people constantly do at the end of an arc. Basically just a boring rehash of the Cell saga instead of the unique ending we (thankfully) got.

Except not. At least not from the writers' POV. The ending IS framed as a happy Disney one, with no one sad or even mentioning all the poor children thay got killed, with double Trunks and Mai portrayed as living happily ever after with another Bulma, with Goku hugging Zeno how it all worked out etc

That the fandom said it was nonsense was another thing, cause it was

And as for attempting something different - I didn't say that the different thing should be horribly written itself lol

I really hope this was not your argument and "proof" why the series should forever focus 99.99% on Goku&Vegeta or have 2846 more identical Bulma parties

[SupremeKai25]

Except not. At least not from the writers' POV. The ending IS framed as a happy Disney one, with no one sad or even mentioning all the poor children thay got killed, with double Trunks and Mai portrayed as living happily ever after with another Bulma, with Goku hugging Zeno how it all worked out etc

Wrong. The only two survivors, Trunks and Mai, both collapse emotionally. Mai pulls out her gun and tries to shoot at Infinite Zamasu because she's furious he killed everyone, while Trunks in literally his final scene cries and tells Gohan that he failed to defend his world. These are some of the most memorable scenes from Super, in large part thanks to the VA's outstanding performance.

I really hope this was not your argument and "proof" why the series should forever focus 99.99% on Goku&Vegeta or have 2846 more identical Bulma parties

You say that the series should not always focus on Goku and Vegeta, but when the series decided to focus on Trunks for a change, giving him a new form and allowing him to "defeat" the main villain, the fandom ridiculed these plot developments.

Everything you claim Super doesn't do is things Super did and was ridiculed for.

[Basaku]

Wrong. The only two survivors, Trunks and Mai, both collapse emotionally. Mai pulls out her gun and tries to shoot at Infinite Zamasu because she's furious he killed everyone, while Trunks in literally his final scene cries and tells Gohan that he failed to defend his world. These are some of the most memorable scenes from Super, in large part thanks to the VA's outstanding performance.

and then they live happily ever after smiling with Bulma...

You say that the series should not always focus on Goku and Vegeta, but when the series decided to focus on Trunks for a change, giving him a new form and allowing him to "defeat" the main villain, the fandom ridiculed these plot developments.

Everything you claim Super doesn't do is things Super did and was ridiculed for.

A miniscule complaint in the grand scheme of things if anything. FutureTrunks return was immensly popular and asked for.

To avoid dragging this out, if your stance is that the franchise should now forevrer lean into its own tired tropes, focus on no one but Goku snd Vegata and remain stale till the end of times then no point discussing anymire as I will never agree with that.

Especially as Dragon Ball used to be SYNONYMOUS with progression of the plot, locations, AGE, changing cast and even the leads starting from its original run. It was absolutely a key aspect of it and one of the big reasons for its success as things were moving and various different characters were growing both narratively and physically. Status quo and endless rehashing of the same thing was for from Dragon Ball DNA and a journey as the key concept at its core in every iterarion, regardless if more adventure-focused in the OG or action-focused in Z. A journey doesn't get stuck in the same desert bar forever

[SupremeKai25]

Wrong. The only two survivors, Trunks and Mai, both collapse emotionally. Mai pulls out her gun and tries to shoot at Infinite Zamasu because she's furious he killed everyone, while Trunks in literally his final scene cries and tells Gohan that he failed to defend his world. These are some of the most memorable scenes from Super, in large part thanks to the VA's outstanding performance.

and then they live happily ever after smiling with Bulma...

You say that the series should not always focus on Goku and Vegeta, but when the series decided to focus on Trunks for a change, giving him a new form and allowing him to "defeat" the main villain, the fandom ridiculed these plot developments.

Everything you claim Super doesn't do is things Super did and was ridiculed for.

A miniscule complaint in the grand scheme of things if anything. FutureTrunks return was immensly popular and asked for.

To avoid dragging this out, if your stance is that the franchise should now forevrer lean into its own tired tropes, focus on no one but Goku snd Vegata and remain stale till the end of times then no point discussing anymire as I will never agree with that.

Especially as Dragon Ball used to be SYNONYMOUS with progression of the plot, locations, AGE, changing cast and even the leads starting from its original run. It was absolutely a key aspect of it and one of the big reasons for its success as things were moving and various different characters were growing both narratively and physically. Status quo and endless rehashing of the same thing was for from Dragon Ball DNA and a journey as the key concept at its core in every iterarion, regardless if more adventure-focused in the OG or action-focused in Z. A journey doesn't get stuck in the same desert bar forever

Actually, if you're really curious, my stance is that the franchise should completely ditch the nostalgia bait and do something new for a change. But I am talking about the villains, not the heroes.

I don't care if Goku and Vegeta are the main characters. But what I do find annoying is if they fight Frieza for the 10th time. How boring, we already know everything this guy can do.

I've said many times in the past that I am tired of the rehashed villains and I want fresh new villains. Perhaps this is why I fanboy for Zamasu and Moro so much. They're literally the only new main villains, and they definitely stand out from all the recoloured versions of Frieza, Cell, Broly, and what else?

And yet it doesn't seem like anyone agrees with me, considering how all I see is excitement and hype for Black Frieza!!! I never see anyone point out that this is like the 10th time Frieza is the main antagonist.

I find this fandom very paradoxical. On this thread we have people criticizing Super for the nostalgia baits. I know it's not the same people, but on Reddit I'll see posts hyping Broly and Black Frieza that get thousands of upvotes.

And when we do get new villains, this fandom just obsesses to find similarities with previous villains, instead of trying to see these new villains as their own new characters. Like in this thread or elsewhere where we have people talking about Black like he's just another Captain Ginyu, when all they have in common is the shtick of stealing Goku's body (and even the way they did that is completely different). Or who can forget how the fandom absolutely ridiculed 7-3 Moro because of his design similarities to Perfect Cell? (and I'll admit it, I was partly guilty of this, but I have re-evaluated the character over the years)

This cognitive dissonance will never not be funny to me. People online complaining that Super is just the Goku and Vegeta nostalgia bait, but then Broly and Super Hero, literally just nostalgia baits, are the two most successful Dragon Ball movies ever, and people keep hyping up Black Frieza like it isn't the 10th time Frieza gets a new power-up to kill the Saiyans.

TL;DR So to get back to your question, I don't think the problem is that the show focuses on Goku and Vegeta. Changing well-established protagonists is a very risky move, look at Boruto. But I do believe that this franchise suffers from lack of interesting villains right now, as this fandom might complain about Super being nostalgia baits, but then they gobble up all those movies with rehashed old villains.

And as usual, I am neither advocating for one extreme nor the other. I want more new villains, and I also love what they did with Frieza in the ToP arc. As per usual I advocate for a middle ground, and while this fandom is correct that Super is doing a lot of nostalgia baits right now, I've seen so many people criticize Daima because they wanted Black Frieza instead (pure nostalgia bait).

I will praise Daima for its cast of new villains. And I truly hope that Janemba will not randomly appear in the coming weeks.

[Basaku]

TL;DR So to get back to your question, I don't think the problem is that the show focuses on Goku and Vegeta. Changing well-established protagonists is a very risky move, look at Boruto. But I do believe that this franchise suffers from lack of interesting villains right now, as this fandom might complain about Super being nostalgia baits, but then they gobble up all those movies with rehashed old villains.

And as usual, I am neither advocating for one extreme nor the other. I want more new villains, and I also love what they did with Frieza in the ToP arc. As per usual I advocate for a middle ground, and while this fandom is correct that Super is doing a lot of nostalgia baits right now, I've seen so many people criticize Daima because they wanted Black Frieza instead (pure nostalgia bait).

I will praise Daima for its cast of new villains. And I truly hope that Janemba will not randomly appear in the coming weeks.

I liked what they did with Freeza in Top but I also agree that he simply needs his (renewed) arc concluded already. I shiver when I see some fan suggestions that Freeza should become some kind of an eternal rival that pops again and again never but it never goes anywhere interesting one way or another. He needs to be done with the franchise forever , not become another tired trope.

As for changing leads - this is a billion dollar franchise that alrady proved its staying immense popularity when it nearly changed the leads to Gohan and Trunks in Cell saga. These 2 literally had their own special back then on top of leading the actual show and it's largely considered the best or second best era in the entire series. And being a billion dollar franchise, it can absolutely afford to swap leads even if the profits diminish a bit. It can afford to do it 10 times and flop 10 times. A billion dollar franchise, let's repeat it again. Naruto doesn't even compare in terms of popularity and global impact to Dragon Ball. And it doesn't mean Goku & Vegeta would have to be removed from the show, they can still have big roles as mentors and aging warriors, that alone would provide a renewed character journey and narrative arcs for them that have a point and some developement goal, rather than being stuck in the current perpetual state of nothingness that never leads anywhere and doesn't have a point anymore. Just like Freeza's current state.

As for wanting Black Freeza instead of Daima - I was in that camp too and I don't see anything hypocritical about it. Freeza's chapter needs to be closed but you can't do it within 2 pages or some offhand remark lol. Since they made this big build up, at this stage it narratively simply has to lead to some big conclusion, even if I'm tired of Freeza. Because of it I want it to be over with already so the series can move past him, past EOZ and past being over-reliant on Goku&Vegeta taking 99% of the screentime despite having no characters arcs in their current state anymore