Do you think the Dragon Ball franchise nowadays has fallen into the realm of modern battle shounen?

[TechExpert2021]

With the Dragon Ball franchise nowadays overly focusing on the most popular and overused anime tropes and memes, putting Goku and Vegeta under the spotlight in almost all instances in every new modern Dragon Ball anime (and turning them into the "Goku and Vegeta shows"), not bothering to take risks with the main characters, and completely removing the blood and battle damage, do you think the Dragon Ball franchise nowadays has fallen into the realm of modern battle shounen?

[AliTheZombie13]

Yes.
I may have had my gripes with the original manga (especially the Z portion of it), but there's nothing else like it.
If you talk to me about Super or Daima, I can point you out to another million shows that are doing exactly the same thing they are doing, and most of the time are doing it better. Dragon Ball has become incredibly generic and boring, it should just die gracefully while it still has the chance, but our corporate overlords sure won't allow that.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Can't really compare to other kids action anime as I haven't seen much, but Dragon Ball has certainly become more formulaic.

It almost always happens to properties with a certain level of brand name recognition. Look at Star Wars, even as a Last Jedi defender I can see how much the sequel trilogy depends on member berries and fan service with scenes and lines of dialogue that reference the original trilogy. In fact Last Jedi was the only movie in the new trilogy that dared to do something different before Rise of Skywalker went down the route of being a more generic space flick.

I know this thread is about anime, not Star Wars, so I guess with my limited knowledge of shounen series One Piece would be the best comparison, which I know has a lot of foreshadowing and payoff for previously established points but on the surface the story is structurally the same throughout with the straw hats visiting a new island, we learn about the island's history and politics, a certain character has a sob story, and repeat.

[SupremeKai25]

Is it the franchise that changed, or have you simply grown up? Perhaps it's you that changed after... what? 30 years?

"Modern Dragon Ball is formulaic"... of course. I'm sure the original would be called "formulaic" too if it came out in 2025. I can already imagine all the complaining about Toriyama pulling the same "rage power-up" shtick with both Goku and Gohan, and using the Dragon Balls at the end of every arc to revive everyone.

[MasenkoHA]

. Dragon Ball has become incredibly generic and boring, it should just die gracefully while it still has the chance, but our corporate overlords sure won't allow that.

Ehhh tbh I think the time for Dragon Ball to die gracefully was 1997 when GT. If I want to be Super generous maybe 2013 with Battle of Gods as a one and done deal.

[TechExpert2021]

Is it the franchise that changed, or have you simply grown up?

It is not only the franchise that changed, it is the entire anime landscape in the Western world in which the fanbase has been overly obsessed with battle shounen anime (One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc.) or merchandising advertainment children's anime (Pokémon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Beyblade, etc.) since the late 1990s and early 2000s.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'll just say this: If you look down on your audience and treat them like dumb little kids who don't deserve quality entertainment, then your show is not worth it, period. "You're not the target audience, kids are!"

Alright, but when these kids grow up, they'll realize the show they were watching in their childhoods is just not good and it'll be forgotten to the sands of time as "just some dumb kids show." Anyone remembers the Blue Dragon anime? Like, not the show itself, but what actually happens in the show? The name of the characters? Their personalities? The story? No? Me neither!

[SupremeKai25]

Is it the franchise that changed, or have you simply grown up?

It is not only the franchise that changed, it is the entire anime landscape in the Western world in which the fanbase has been overly obsessed with battle shounen anime (One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc.) or merchandising advertainment children's anime (Pokémon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Beyblade, etc.) since the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Super feels different from the original Dragon Ball (including GT), because Super began 20 years after the original ended.

I'd be surprised if there was a sequel set 20 years after the original that did not feel different. The key is having a middle ground, that is having new and unique things while simultaneously feeling like it could fit into the world established by the original series.

Boruto does not feel like it could fit into the world of Naruto. There's too much weird technological stuff and ugly things going on there. Dragon Ball Super feels like it could fit into the original world of Dragon Ball. For instance I could easily see a character like Beerus fit into the original series. A "Destroyer God" who's just a lazy cat who sucks at his job is quintessential Dragon Ball.

Ultimately, while it was always obvious that Super would be different from the original (it's been 20 years, and soon it will be 10 years since Super began), Super still feels like a Dragon Ball series, and actually fits quite nicely into the original world, both in terms of ideas/concepts introduced (like a rogue god who hates mortals, or a sorcerer who drains life-force) and aesthetics (DBZ set a precedent of Saiyan forms having just differently-coloured hair, and often not even that, for example ).

[Zephyr]

I mean, "modern battle shounen" is largely just aping DB's own formula anyway, right? If so, DB's just fallen into its own realm, which isn't new.

Can't really compare to other kids action anime as I haven't seen much, but Dragon Ball has certainly become more formulaic.

It almost always happens to properties with a certain level of brand name recognition. Look at Star Wars, even as a Last Jedi defender I can see how much the sequel trilogy depends on member berries and fan service with scenes and lines of dialogue that reference the original trilogy. In fact Last Jedi was the only movie in the new trilogy that dared to do something different before Rise of Skywalker went down the route of being a more generic space flick.

Agreed entirely on The Last Jedi. I'd also say that it relies on all the member berries of The Force Awakens, in that TFA set everything up for TLJ to say "no, move on from this crap already, holy shit". The clearest anti-nerd-franchise-slop-consumption message I've ever seen in a modern slop-consumption nerd-franchise. I loved it and I totally understand why others hated it.

It's true that DB is fairly formulaic by this point, but I think it was fairly formulaic long before the original comic ended. Now, that doesn't mean it's not even more formulaic these days. I'm torn on the whole "Goku and Vegeta Show" complaint. On one hand, I think it's important for Goku's arc that Vegeta end up falling by the wayside for new rivals, so him being the deuteragonist of Super, for instance, feels like it's dragging its feet on that. On the other hand, he was always a very major character perspective ever since Namek, so I don't think it's that out of step? On the other other hand, Gohan was like a step above him in importance during the original comic, so I could see the disdain there.

So I'm of two minds: the "Goku and Vegeta Show" kind of isn't a new formula at all, but if it is then it's kind of breaking from DB's 'old formula' of having Gohan in the mix as well. Unsure of which poison to pick.

[Jord]

Is it the franchise that changed, or have you simply grown up?

It is not only the franchise that changed, it is the entire anime landscape in the Western world in which the fanbase has been overly obsessed with battle shounen anime (One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc.) or merchandising advertainment children's anime (Pokémon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Beyblade, etc.) since the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Super feels different from the original Dragon Ball (including GT), because Super began 20 years after the original ended.

I'd be surprised if there was a sequel set 20 years after the original that did not feel different. The key is having a middle ground, that is having new and unique things while simultaneously feeling like it could fit into the world established by the original series.

Boruto does not feel like it could fit into the world of Naruto. There's too much weird technological stuff and ugly things going on there. Dragon Ball Super feels like it could fit into the original world of Dragon Ball. For instance I could easily see a character like Beerus fit into the original series. A "Destroyer God" who's just a lazy cat who sucks at his job is quintessential Dragon Ball.

Ultimately, while it was always obvious that Super would be different from the original (it's been 20 years, and soon it will be 10 years since Super began), Super still feels like a Dragon Ball series, and actually fits quite nicely into the original world, both in terms of ideas/concepts introduced (like a rogue god who hates mortals, or a sorcerer who drains life-force) and aesthetics (DBZ set a precedent of Saiyan forms having just differently-coloured hair, and often not even that, for example ).

I think you nailed it. Super felt like a remix of the concept of Dragon Ball, rather than a straight sequel, like GT was. Whether you like Super or not, it did felt "believable" as for taking place in the same universe as Z. Some of the creative choices could have happened in Z, if the original show went on longer.

[Vhanos]

If you talk to me about Super or Daima, I can point you out to another million shows that are doing exactly the same thing they are doing, and most of the time are doing it better. Dragon Ball has become incredibly generic and boring, it should just die gracefully while it still has the chance, but our corporate overlords sure won't allow that.

Don't. People have already been doing that with the series prior to Super and Daima, and it's annoying. I can rebuff you and say whatever million of shows you claim that are doing the same thing are doing it better are not doing it better. Then that can lead to disagreements and stuff that becomes fruitless and vain.

It's generic and boring? Says the person with a GT avatar. I don't share your take on that. The series is still pulling interest and has other good points about it, despite what the naysayers want to say.

I'll just say this: If you look down on your audience and treat them like dumb little kids who don't deserve quality entertainment, then your show is not worth it, period. "You're not the target audience, kids are!"

Alright, but when these kids grow up, they'll realize the show they were watching in their childhoods is just not good and it'll be forgotten to the sands of time as "just some dumb kids show." Anyone remembers the Blue Dragon anime? Like, not the show itself, but what actually happens in the show? The name of the characters? Their personalities? The story? No? Me neither!

It's giving people quality entertainment. Daima is giving people the things that were liked about Kid Goku and how there were journeys and all that good stuff, before the tournament or training stuff became a bit much. Although the new series turned the characters into kids like GT did, it hasn't degraded the characters or the things that worked well like GT did.

You're treating the franchise like it's Ex-Arm.

[AliTheZombie13]

[...]

Heavy agree to disagree at play here.

GT ain't perfect, but it did the bare minimum of giving the characters arcs, something the Daima characters desperately need.
And even then, both of them fall very hard in comparison to other light-hearted adventure shows like Digimon Adventure 98.

Still, you probably will not agree with my view here and there's nothing I can do about it, and that's okay.
Aren't personal opinions fun?

[tonysoprano300]

I would say that the original DB was never looking back, every arc was a new adventure. Not to say that there weren't tropes or formulas that it fell victim too like the "Waiting for Goku" schtick but DBS takes it to a whole other level. You have entire films like ROF that exist purely as nostalgia bait, 3 of the 4 films we've gotten have brought back Z era DB antagonists in some shape or form. The Gohan transformation in Super Hero was almost a direct replica of his teenage self.

Its more formulaic in the sense that its much more episodic and the status quo never changes.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I would say that the original DB was never looking back, every arc was a new adventure. Not to say that there weren't tropes or formulas that it fell victim too like the "Waiting for Goku" schtick but DBS takes it to a whole other level. You have entire films like ROF that exist purely as nostalgia bait, 3 of the 4 films we've gotten have brought back Z era DB antagonists in some shape or form. The Gohan transformation in Super Hero was almost a direct replica of his teenage self.

Its more formulaic in the sense that its much more episodic and the status quo never changes.

Which is summed up by the fact SUPER HERO was effectively a stand alone movie (the only scene that connected to the past movie was basically a filler scene if it is removed nothing in the film changes) and that basically sums up how pointless modern DB really has been...

3 movies and a 130 episode series all lead to absolutely nothing

[AliTheZombie13]

3 movies and a 130 episode series all lead to absolutely nothing

They lead to Gohan deciding (for what, the 4th time in a row?) that he really should be training.
But just like the other 3 times it happened, it won't go anywhere and he'll be back to worrying about his family and neglecting training again.

Honestly, Gohan's struggle between being an ordinary nerd dad and a fighter should've been a compelling character arc.
It's not like the likes of Spider-Man or Sailor Moon haven't done it before, it's just that Dragon Ball is woefully scared of doing it.

[Yuji]

I don't really care for the formula or whatever, but I think there's something off about modern Dragon Ball. I don't really think any of the characters acted this way before. The mannerisms are more over-the-top, the dialogue less subtle, the emotions more saccharine and melodramatic.

There was this underlying subtle maturity to Dragon Ball, in spite of all the gags and childish entertainment, that I don't quite think the modern revival grasps.

[Zinnia]

Says the person with a GT avatar.

?
GT is the only part of the series that shaked up the status quo, went after End of Z and did something new with the characters. You don't have to ask why characters won't be using their new forms later on, or why did they never mention any past events, because there was nothing after GT.

While Super and Daima constantly leave us with questions why Vegeta never used SSJ3 ever again, why do they never mention any of their Demon Realm friends, why are Goku and Vegeta so chill by EoZ if Frieza is still alive and taking over planets. It's all up for fans to headcanon because the new series just don't want to answer any questions.

[Zephyr]

I don't think it's very egregious that they don't mention their Demon World friends afterwards. It's not like Sno and Upa are brought up all the time.

[AliTheZombie13]

Says the person with a GT avatar.

?
GT is the only part of the series that shaked up the status quo, went after End of Z and did something new with the characters. You don't have to ask why characters won't be using their new forms later on, or why did they never mention any past events, because there was nothing after GT.

Not if you count Neko Majin Z or DB Online.
Either way, I really shouldn't even have to justify why I wear a GT avatar when it's completely irrelevant to this discussion.

"I think [Series X] sucks."
"Well, [Series Y] sucked just as much!"

Like, okay... I still think Series X sucks.

[SupremeKai25]

why Vegeta never used SSJ3 ever again

Because he discovered the God forms which are infinitely superior to SSJ3.

If you're talking about the "my Bulma" scene, it's because he was mindless and overcome with blind rage, so he didn't think about changing form.

why do they never mention any of their Demon Realm friends,

Let's wait until Daima is over before asking these questions.

why are Goku and Vegeta so chill by EoZ if Frieza is still alive and taking over planets.

Let's wait until Super is over before asking these questions.

Neither of these products are finished. You don't know what will happen.