Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

Goku had PL of 3,000,000 before he transforms. Frieza's FP was 120,000,000. Before his power started dropping Frieza was even with SS Goku.

So I think that normal SS is a 40x multiplier. over base the first time it is used. It is also very possible that it shrinks down to 10x over base after the first transformation, with the base form natually boosted up 30x over time. if SS3G and SS2 are supposed to be the same level of power and SS3G is 10x SS then it makes SS2 100x the base form and SS3 to be 4x SS2 anyway.

If we don't go by that spanish guidebook then SS2 would be 20x base and SS3 would be 80x base.

I think the ONLY thing Toriyama had for certain in his mind is that after the Frieza Arc normal SS is 10x the users base form, SSFP is as strong as SS3G with the speed to match and without the stamina drain, SS2 is even stronger than that, and SS3 is stronger than SS2. That is all that is certain.

[LightBing]

Toriyama never said SSJ is x10 base. He said x50 was a wrong interpretation and it was x10 from what it was before, which was the x20 Kaioken.
SSJ therefore is x30.

It doesn't make sense for it ever to be below that number since, it would make it worse than the Kaioken.

The Cell arc is quite clear that mastering SSJ removes the ceiling and bottom of SSJ. It turns into base 2.0. Goku could stay at 5 and train to surpass it's x30 ceiling and make it stronger.

[Yuji]

Toriyama never said SSJ is x10 base. He said x50 was a wrong interpretation and it was x10 from what it was before, which was the x20 Kaioken.
SSJ therefore is x30.

It doesn't make sense for it ever to be below that number since, it would make it worse than the Kaioken.

The Cell arc is quite clear that mastering SSJ removes the ceiling and bottom of SSJ. It turns into base 2.0. Goku could stay at 5 and train to surpass it's x30 ceiling and make it stronger.

There's a reason they chose x50. It's because Goku used the Kaioken x20 against 50% Freeza and barely scratched him, so to defeat 100% he would need at least x40 to match him, more than that to comfortably defeat him. It's easy to see why they came up with the x50 number.

x10 over the previous Kaioken would make SS x200, not x30.

Toriyama even said he agreed that x50 made sense, but he just imagined the boost as x10:

"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

It's authorial intent vs what makes sense in the story. x50 is the only multiplier that makes sense, but Toriyama did not imagine such a large gap between SS and base, which explains why base Saiyans have historically done better than they "should."

We can argue headcanons all we like. For me personally, it makes sense both that the SS multiplier can increase with training and mastery, and that they can tap into a portion or essence of the SS power in base.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I've said this before, but if Toriyama was really trying to pull some sort of word-of-god stunt and declare, "no, the 50x boost for Super Saiyan is incorrect, it should really be only 10x <something>," then I doubt the fine folks at Shueisha still would have restated the 50-fold boost in literally that very same book. Talking about how it "felt" to him is only that — it isn't the same thing as putting one's foot down and making a rule.

[QuakingStar]

Whether we like it or not, Toriyama is not actually the final say. His editors are. So 50x is the canon boost for SS, including SS4G. But since normal SS loses power shortly after being used the only way Goku could have been matching FP Frieza was if the SS forms normal level of power is 40x the users base. Mastering SS would allow for full use of the 50x. Then when they go SS2 they get twice as strong as that.

[Koitsukai]

Even if he meant SS to be 10x, the story kinda goes the other way, so he dropped the ball along the way. If I meant my character to be gay but I ended up making him fall in love with only the opposite sex, then they are not gay, no matter what I wanted them to be while writing the story.

I read he also wanted Vegeta to be younger than Goku, but he forgot to tell Toei about it before the Bardock TV Special. He wanted Geets to be younger, dropped the ball (by not alerting Toei or not specifiying that himself in the manga) and now Vegeta is older than Goku. Not sure if any of this is true, though.

[LightBing]

Toriyama never said SSJ is x10 base. He said x50 was a wrong interpretation and it was x10 from what it was before, which was the x20 Kaioken.
SSJ therefore is x30.

It doesn't make sense for it ever to be below that number since, it would make it worse than the Kaioken.

The Cell arc is quite clear that mastering SSJ removes the ceiling and bottom of SSJ. It turns into base 2.0. Goku could stay at 5 and train to surpass it's x30 ceiling and make it stronger.

There's a reason they chose x50. It's because Goku used the Kaioken x20 against 50% Freeza and barely scratched him, so to defeat 100% he would need at least x40 to match him, more than that to comfortably defeat him. It's easy to see why they came up with the x50 number.

x10 over the previous Kaioken would make SS x200, not x30.

Toriyama even said he agreed that x50 made sense, but he just imagined the boost as x10:

"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

It's authorial intent vs what makes sense in the story. x50 is the only multiplier that makes sense, but Toriyama did not imagine such a large gap between SS and base, which explains why base Saiyans have historically done better than they "should."

We can argue headcanons all we like. For me personally, it makes sense both that the SS multiplier can increase with training and mastery, and that they can tap into a portion or essence of the SS power in base.

The problem is their interpretation of the battle was wrong. For years I also failed to see what is, after re-reading and taking a closer look, obvious.

Goku's x20 Kaioken was stronger than 50% Freeza.

Freeza told Goku he was using half his strength. Goku had this information when he decided to wreck his body with the Kaioken, whilst hoping Freeza was bluffing.

The whole point was to create dread by confirming Freeza's allegations. Such confirmation could only come by going above 50% of it's power.
Finally, yes Freeza can change his power. He does so during his fight with Goku.

So if Freeza had to go up to 70% or something to stop Goku's Kamehameha, then Toriyama's quote makes complete sense.
For that part of the story, which is what he's referring to, SSJ is x30.
Later, well, the whole Android and Cell arc is about improving SSJ, it's all there. But that's a whole other conversation if we want to go deeper into it.

Guides, supplemental material, etc... that's all the true headcanon unless people can prove Toriyama supervised it's creation.

Because it's all people interpreting the story, it's basically this thread. I would put more trust in you and other people here, since at least I can say they went beyond to analyze the material at hand.
Based on how most information seems wrong or contradictory, I would say the numerous people who created that material hardly did more than quickly flip some pages to fulfill a deadline.

Food for thought for everyone.
If the author says something that goes against the grain, perhaps we should reevaluate what we thought was true, instead of disregarding what he said.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It’s 50x, don’t complicate it. I’m really fond of the idea that the Saiyans can tap into partial SSJ power though. It feels so logical to see the form as a spectrum and that they can charge their Ki halfway through the transformation.

[ZombieVito]

It’s 50x, don’t complicate it. I’m really fond of the idea that the Saiyans can tap into partial SSJ power though. It feels so logical to see the form as a spectrum and that they can charge their Ki halfway through the transformation.

Yeah.

It makes the Yakon fight make sense. We see base Goku handling him very well but when Babidi measures them, Yakon is only 3.75 times weaker than Super Saiyan Goku.

[LightBing]

It’s 50x, don’t complicate it. I’m really fond of the idea that the Saiyans can tap into partial SSJ power though. It feels so logical to see the form as a spectrum and that they can charge their Ki halfway through the transformation.

If people want to use guide numbers, that's fine. It's so standard and people are opposite to change so picking on it is a losing battle.

But it's not x50.
The manga never gives a multiplier and Toriyama literally said it was an exaggeration. Let's not ignore the author.

[QuakingStar]

Manga didn't need to give a direct number. Goku hit 50% Frieza with a x20 Kamehameha and it didn't really do anything to Frieza. Considering Frieza then got twice as strong as that at 100% and then was tying SS Goku until Freeza's energy started to drop, Super Saiyan would have had to have been a 40x multiplier at bare minimum.

[dbgtFO]

Manga didn't need to give a direct number. Goku hit 50% Frieza with a x20 Kamehameha and it didn't really do anything to Frieza. Considering Frieza then got twice as strong as that at 100% and then was tying SS Goku until Freeza's energy started to drop, Super Saiyan would have had to have been a 40x mulitplier at bare minimum.

I think the idea is that Freeza tanking the Kamehameha is supposed to be full power Freeza and that's why Goku could confirm he wasn't bluffing about his 50% power.
Of course things then changed after Goku went Super Saiyan and Freeza had to be somewhat of a match against him, so he was now actually only at 50% power all this time and had one more change in form and power up his sleeve.
Of course entirely unprovable, but I can see how you can get that idea, since Toriyama himself stated, that he would change the balance of strength to fit the story, so this might have been one of the cases, that wasn't so obvious.

[Koitsukai]

SS being a spectrum is implied in the manga, GT and DBS.

GT: The Rildo example shown above.

Manga:
Gohan vs Dabura, not quite regular SS but not SS2 either. Somewhere in-between, unable to go the whole 9 yards.
Goku vs Yakon could be another example.

DBS:
Vegeta and Trunks being able to access SS3 as SS2.
Broly's eyes turning yellow when powering up without fully turning into a humanoid ohzaru.

[DanielSSJ]

Manga didn't need to give a direct number. Goku hit 50% Frieza with a x20 Kamehameha and it didn't really do anything to Frieza. Considering Frieza then got twice as strong as that at 100% and then was tying SS Goku until Freeza's energy started to drop, Super Saiyan would have had to have been a 40x multiplier at bare minimum.

Goku hit Vegeta with a x4 Kamehameha at nearly twice Vegeta's battle power, and it didn't immediately kill him. I don't think this is as cut and dry as you think it is.

[LightBing]

Manga didn't need to give a direct number. Goku hit 50% Frieza with a x20 Kamehameha and it didn't really do anything to Frieza. Considering Frieza then got twice as strong as that at 100% and then was tying SS Goku until Freeza's energy started to drop, Super Saiyan would have had to have been a 40x multiplier at bare minimum.

I wrote before, the main misunderstanding of the narrative is that Goku matches 50% Freeza.
It makes no sense story wise for Goku to make this penultimate ditch effort with dire consequences to barely have an effect.

Freeza reaction and set up shows this. He knows Goku was hiding power (x10 Kaioken) and says 50% is enough for him.
Then he gets hurt by the x20 Kamehameha and wonders where did he get that power, which means his calculation of 50% was wrong for that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the idea is that Freeza tanking the Kamehameha is supposed to be full power Freeza and that's why Goku could confirm he wasn't bluffing about his 50% power.
Of course things then changed after Goku went Super Saiyan and Freeza had to be somewhat of a match against him, so he was now actually only at 50% power all this time and had one more change in form and power up his sleeve.
Of course entirely unprovable, but I can see how you can get that idea, since Toriyama himself stated, that he would change the balance of strength to fit the story, so this might have been one of the cases, that wasn't so obvious.

I don’t think that was ever really meant to be his 100%. Either Goku got a deeper feel of Freeza’s power (as often happens), or Freeza rose his power a bit. The story would probably have made a bigger deal if Freeza had used full power.

SS being a spectrum is implied in the manga, GT and DBS.

GT: The Rildo example shown above.

Manga:
Gohan vs Dabura, not quite regular SS but not SS2 either. Somewhere in-between, unable to go the whole 9 yards.
Goku vs Yakon could be another example.

DBS:
Vegeta and Trunks being able to access SS3 as SS2.
Broly's eyes turning yellow when powering up without fully turning into a humanoid ohzaru.

The Broly movie has an even better example: Vegeta getting the upperhand over Broly as he starts to glow yellow. I think Goku did that in Daima too.

And of course, there’s the infamous miscolored SSJ Goku vs the Ginyu Force in the Other World Saga.

Goku hit Vegeta with a x4 Kamehameha at nearly twice Vegeta's battle power, and it didn't immediately kill him. I don't think this is as cut and dry as you think it is.

The thing is, Vegeta surviving was a literal miracle. The characters even acknowledge as much. Freeza wasn’t even hit, he stopped the blast dead on its tracks with one hand. It wasn’t easy, it hurt his hand a bit, but he still showed superiority nonetheless.

[DanielSSJ]

Goku hit Vegeta with a x4 Kamehameha at nearly twice Vegeta's battle power, and it didn't immediately kill him. I don't think this is as cut and dry as you think it is.

The thing is, Vegeta surviving was a literal miracle. The characters even acknowledge as much. Freeza wasn’t even hit, he stopped the blast dead on its tracks with one hand. It wasn’t easy, it hurt his hand a bit, but he still showed superiority nonetheless.

You're thinking of Vegeta surviving the Genki Dama. Goku acts like him surviving the Kaioken x4 was a matter of course.

Spoiler:

[DBZ Macky]

It’s 50x, don’t complicate it. I’m really fond of the idea that the Saiyans can tap into partial SSJ power though. It feels so logical to see the form as a spectrum and that they can charge their Ki halfway through the transformation.

I'd go a step further and say that Base Saiyans can have the same performance as their strongest form at the time for at least a short while. The Saiyans' body adapts to their newfound power or something.

Goku being just almost as strong as his Super Saiyan form still doesn't explain how he can hold his own against SS2 Caulifla (~SS2 Goku), Ikari Broly (>SSG Vegeta) and how he can make Hit (~SSB Goku) bleed.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku hit Vegeta with a x4 Kamehameha at nearly twice Vegeta's battle power, and it didn't immediately kill him. I don't think this is as cut and dry as you think it is.

The thing is, Vegeta surviving was a literal miracle. The characters even acknowledge as much. Freeza wasn’t even hit, he stopped the blast dead on its tracks with one hand. It wasn’t easy, it hurt his hand a bit, but he still showed superiority nonetheless.

You're thinking of Vegeta surviving the Genki Dama. Goku acts like him surviving the Kaioken x4 was a matter of course.

Spoiler:

Still, the point is that the blast was stronger than Vegeta’s power, and thus overtook Vegeta’s defense and blasted him away. That’s what you’d expect of a blast stronger than its target. Freeza defending himself from the Kamehameha would at least suggest they’re comparable.

[DanielSSJ]

Still, the point is that the blast was stronger than Vegeta’s power, and thus overtook Vegeta’s defense and blasted him away. That’s what you’d expect of a blast stronger than its target. Freeza defending himself from the Kamehameha would at least suggest they’re comparable.

To me, the point is that the Kaioken under performs given it's on-paper power. A blast that by all rights should've killed Vegeta left him fully ambulatory and in arguably better condition than Goku was in after he fired it. Freeza taking superficial damage just means he wasn't as outmatched as Vegeta was (or that he tapped into more than 50% of his power to defend against it). Not saying that the official databook numbers are wrong, just that it doesn't break the story if you interpret things differently.