Do you think the Dragon Ball franchise nowadays has fallen into the realm of modern battle shounen?

[super michael]

[...]

Heavy agree to disagree at play here.

GT ain't perfect, but it did the bare minimum of giving the characters arcs, something the Daima characters desperately need.
And even then, both of them fall very hard in comparison to other light-hearted adventure shows like Digimon Adventure 98.

Still, you probably will not agree with my view here and there's nothing I can do about it, and that's okay.
Aren't personal opinions fun?

In GT there was character growth, we saw Pan changing as the series progressed. Boo protected Mr Satan, Pan and Oob even to the point of giving up his life by merging with Oob.
Mr Satan was incredibly sad over losing Boo his friend, that he considered retiring.

GT felt like a good continuation to Dragon Ball, while DBS didn't feel like a continuation at all. I didn't like how the characters acted in DBS.
DBS felt more like a reboot than a sequel of the Boo Saga.

Going from the Boo Saga to DBS, it felt the same like how Ben 10 Ultimate Alien continued to Ben 10 Omniverse both of them being bad sequels.
Maybe it is similar to Xiaolin Showdown and Xiaolin Chronicles, being that the sequel was bad.

[AliTheZombie13]

[...]

Although I agree with most of this, once again, GT is completely irrelevant to this conversation.
Whether modern Dragon Ball succeeds or fails, it does so out of its own merits and flaws.
Even if I thought GT was terrible, I still wouldn't be praising Super or Daima, because I don't think they're good shows on their own.

[perucho1990]

[...]

Heavy agree to disagree at play here.

GT ain't perfect, but it did the bare minimum of giving the characters arcs, something the Daima characters desperately need.
And even then, both of them fall very hard in comparison to other light-hearted adventure shows like Digimon Adventure 98.

Still, you probably will not agree with my view here and there's nothing I can do about it, and that's okay.
Aren't personal opinions fun?

In GT there was character growth, we saw Pan changing as the series progressed. Boo protected Mr Satan, Pan and Oob even to the point of giving up his life by merging with Oob.
Mr Satan was incredibly sad over losing Boo his friend, that he considered retiring.

GT felt like a good continuation to Dragon Ball, while DBS didn't feel like a continuation at all. I didn't like how the characters acted in DBS.
DBS felt more like a reboot than a sequel of the Boo Saga.

Going from the Boo Saga to DBS, it felt the same like how Ben 10 Ultimate Alien continued to Ben 10 Omniverse both of them being bad sequels.
Maybe it is similar to Xiaolin Showdown and Xiaolin Chronicles, being that the sequel was bad.

There are a bunch of people online that they dislike GT so much that would rather check Fairy Tail and Fairy Tail is another series that became a punching among Shounen fans.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If you talk to me about Super or Daima, I can point you out to another million shows that are doing exactly the same thing they are doing, and most of the time are doing it better.

Classic Dragon Ball (DB, Z, & GT) was a product of its time. Everything about that era of DB screamed 80s and 90s, both in terms of writing and art direction. Modern DB is basically One Piece with a DB skin. You can really tell that the people working on modern DB have no idea what made the original so iconic in the first place.

Dragon Ball has become incredibly generic and boring, it should just die gracefully while it still has the chance.

GT gave it the perfect ending; it should've stayed that way.

[Xeogran]

This thread is gonna be looked at differently now after today's episode
Looks like all the 30 year long complaints about GT didn't work, when the officials pander to it so much now, eh?

But even as a huge GT fan, I'm not a fan of the pandering. What was then should have stayed then, come up with something new instead of recycling and also making it worse.

[JulieYBM]

This thread is gonna be looked at differently now after today's episode
Looks like all the 30 year long complaints about GT didn't work, when the officials pander to it so much now, eh?

But even as a huge GT fan, I'm not a fan of the pandering. What was then should have stayed then, come up with something new instead of recycling and also making it worse.

Welcome to capitalism, where decisions are made for commercial art based less on the creators wanting to do something and more on producers spending money on pandering to nostalgia while simultaneously preventing creative staff from doing jack shit.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't think anyone ever denied that SSJ4 is popular. I never denied it either. But how much of that popularity hinges on childhood nostalgia?

Of course I will never understand what people see in that overdesigned and trying-too-hard-to-be-cool form.

[WittyUsername]

If by “modern battle shounen”, we’re referring to things like the stoic rival/antagonist with a tragic backstory who goes on spiels about how depending on others makes you weak and that strength is all that matters, only to get humbled by the power of friendship, then Jiren and the Tournament of Power fits that to a T. I can safely say that classic Dragon Ball never really had those things, but that seems to be everywhere in stuff like One Piece, Naruto and Fairy Tail.

[MasenkoHA]

If by “modern battle shounen”, we’re referring to things like the stoic rival/antagonist with a tragic backstory who goes on spiels about how depending on others makes you weak and that strength is all that matters, only to get humbled by the power of friendship, then Jiren and the Tournament of Power fits that to a T. I can safely say that classic Dragon Ball never really had those things, but that seems to be everywhere in stuff like One Piece, Naruto and Fairy Tail.

You could argue that's basically what happened with characters like Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and especially Vegeta just less saccharine and preachy about the power of friendship than its imitators and modern Dragon Ball is just doing what the works it inspired is doing.

[JulieYBM]

NARUTO and BLEACH don't qualify as modern shounen anymore, so I don't actually know what the kids are into these days. I marathoned Jujutsu Kaisen's two anime seasons and film and all I remember besides the cool fighting and music is how hot the men were and how badly I wanted them to marry one another.

What even is modern 'battle shounen' now? Is modern Dragon Ball the same? I don't know, but I don't think that I would consider Dragon Ball Super all that like older series like NARUTO and BLEACH. Those had a lot more heart put into them and heart is precisely the thing that Toriyama wanted to avoid in his work.

[WittyUsername]

If by “modern battle shounen”, we’re referring to things like the stoic rival/antagonist with a tragic backstory who goes on spiels about how depending on others makes you weak and that strength is all that matters, only to get humbled by the power of friendship, then Jiren and the Tournament of Power fits that to a T. I can safely say that classic Dragon Ball never really had those things, but that seems to be everywhere in stuff like One Piece, Naruto and Fairy Tail.

You could argue that's basically what happened with characters like Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and especially Vegeta just less saccharine and preachy about the power of friendship than its imitators and modern Dragon Ball is just doing what the works it inspired is doing.

I don’t think the power of friendship trope was really much of a factor in the original manga. I can’t recall a particular instance where it was stated that Goku’s strength comes from his friends or whatever other sappiness you see in a lot of these “battle anime/manga”.

[MasenkoHA]

If by “modern battle shounen”, we’re referring to things like the stoic rival/antagonist with a tragic backstory who goes on spiels about how depending on others makes you weak and that strength is all that matters, only to get humbled by the power of friendship, then Jiren and the Tournament of Power fits that to a T. I can safely say that classic Dragon Ball never really had those things, but that seems to be everywhere in stuff like One Piece, Naruto and Fairy Tail.

You could argue that's basically what happened with characters like Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and especially Vegeta just less saccharine and preachy about the power of friendship than its imitators and modern Dragon Ball is just doing what the works it inspired is doing.

I don’t think the power of friendship trope was really much of a factor in the original manga. I can’t recall a particular instance where it was stated that Goku’s strength comes from his friends or whatever other sappiness you see in a lot of these “battle anime/manga”.

I mean Goku more or less makes friends with all of his rivals. It's not preached too like Yugioh or One Piece, but it's there. There's definitely a through line between Goku and Vegeta and like Naruto and Sasuke.

I think the ultimate difference between Dragon Ball and its copycats (pre modern Dragon Ball at least) is Dragon Ball doesn't feel the need to hold its audience hands and spread the gospel of friendship it just does its thing where a lot of characters become comrades through their love of fighting.

[SupremeKai25]

If by “modern battle shounen”, we’re referring to things like the stoic rival/antagonist with a tragic backstory who goes on spiels about how depending on others makes you weak and that strength is all that matters, only to get humbled by the power of friendship, then Jiren and the Tournament of Power fits that to a T. I can safely say that classic Dragon Ball never really had those things, but that seems to be everywhere in stuff like One Piece, Naruto and Fairy Tail.

Thank goodness Dragon Ball got influenced by its copy-cats then because that fight between Goku and Jiren is one of the most superbly-written and directed fights in the entire franchise.

Plus, it's good that Dragon Ball started having more fleshed-out antagonists like Jiren, instead of generic pure evil monsters who just kill people for fun.

Also, the original had Goku achieve his ultimate form because of a 2 minutes long sappy and melodramatic scene where Pan reminded him they went to the beach once. I'll take anything, literally anything Toriyama did in Super over that lame and weird stuff.

[super michael]

If by “modern battle shounen”, we’re referring to things like the stoic rival/antagonist with a tragic backstory who goes on spiels about how depending on others makes you weak and that strength is all that matters, only to get humbled by the power of friendship, then Jiren and the Tournament of Power fits that to a T. I can safely say that classic Dragon Ball never really had those things, but that seems to be everywhere in stuff like One Piece, Naruto and Fairy Tail.

Thank goodness Dragon Ball got influenced by its copy-cats then because that fight between Goku and Jiren is one of the most superbly-written and directed fights in the entire franchise.

Plus, it's good that Dragon Ball started having more fleshed-out antagonists like Jiren, instead of generic pure evil monsters who just kill people for fun.

Also, the original had Goku achieve his ultimate form because of a 2 minutes long sappy and melodramatic scene where Pan reminded him they went to the beach once. I'll take anything, literally anything Toriyama did in Super over that lame and weird stuff.

Goku never learned how to control his Oozaru form, he was basically a out of control beast. Thanks to Pan, she was able to remind Goku of who he was and gain control, something that never managed to do. By doing so Goku was able to evolve into his SSJ4 form.
Vegeta on the other hand didn't struggle to turn SSJ4, since he already had control of his Oozaru form in the Saiyan Saga.

As for Jiren I think how he was written was good. His motivation to get powerful was good and being a super hero. His believes vs Goku believes was good.

Zamasu reason for turning evil was good, even if he thought that he was being a hero. He saw the worst that mortals can do, but didn't think the good that mortal does.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegeta didn't struggle to turn SSJ4 because Bulma asspulled a blutz waves generator in 5 minutes that could in turn asspull blutz waves to turn Baby/Vegeta into a golden oozaru.

Ofc this very concept of "blutz waves" related to the Earth's light having the same properties as the Moon is also an asspull.

Well that's very convenient. 10/10 storytelling. Can't imagine why GT is so disliked. The only reason that comes to mind is that it wasn't authored by Toriyama. Yeah, that must be it.

But as usual no one ever points that out. It's just Daima/Super/Modern DB that is an "asspull". (as we know, Elder namekians NEVER showed the ability to grant great power to talented fighters)

[super michael]

Vegeta didn't struggle to turn SSJ4 because Bulma asspulled a blutz waves generator in 5 minutes that could in turn asspull blutz waves to turn Baby/Vegeta into a golden oozaru.

Ofc this very concept of "blutz waves" related to the Earth's light having the same properties as the Moon is also an asspull.

Well that's very convenient. 10/10 storytelling. Can't imagine why GT is so disliked. The only reason that comes to mind is that it wasn't authored by Toriyama. Yeah, that must be it.

But as usual no one ever points that out. It's just Daima/Super/Modern DB that is an "asspull". (as we know, Elder namekians NEVER showed the ability to grant great power to talented fighters)

Bulma is known to create amazing invention, as a teenager she was fixing and improving vehicles. She even created a watch that can shrink the user and lets not forget her famous invention the Dragon Ball Radar. She has experience fixing Android 16 and has the potential to create a time machine.
So Bulma creating a Blutz Wave machine I wouldn't consider it asspull, since Bulma has always been good with technology, plus this is Bebi/Bulma.

If Vegeta can create a power ball to imitate a moon to transform, I don't see why other planet can't be used as a substitute to transform.

There are bad writing in GT, however Bulma invention and using other planet as a substitute doesn't look like bad writing.


I don't see anything wrong with Neva powers, we are told in DBZ that Namekian are known for the mysterious powers. We know Namekians can create Dragon Balls, heal and even unlock potential. It isn't a surprise that Namekians can have more abilities that were never shown.

[SupremeKai25]

Bulma is known to create amazing invention

And Namekian elders are known to grant amazing power to talented fighters. Neva specifically is known as a powerful being, who created the Demonic Dragon Balls and its terrifying wardens, and the barriers and entry points of the realm.

So Bulma creating a Blutz Wave machine I wouldn't consider it asspull, since Bulma has always been good with technology, plus this is Bebi/Bulma.

Bulma creating that machine is plausible, Bulma doing it in 2 minutes while Baby was getting stomped by Goku is not. All Baby did was plant an egg inside of her, I don't recall this egg being capable of turning Bulma into some otherworldly entity who can invent a genius new machine in a couple of minutes.

If Vegeta can create a power ball to imitate a moon to transform, I don't see why other planet can't be used as a substitute to transform.

If the Namekian elder can grant Krillin amazing power, I don't know why an even more ancient and powerful elder from the Demon Realm couldn't grant Goku an amazing new form.

There are bad writing in GT, however Bulma invention and using other planet as a substitute doesn't look like bad writing.

Only because of nostalgia for the old childhood show/GT.

Using the Earth to mimic the Moon's light is a convenient new rule that was never mentioned before, just like the reveal that Saiyans possess S-Cells that are directly linked to their battle power and their ability to turn into a Super Saiyan; which, might I remind, was a reveal vehemently hated by this fandom because the new series is not allowed to introduce new and revolutionizing concepts.

Nah, let's call it what it is: nostalgia. It's just that.

This fandom absolutely MASSACRED DBS for having Trunks learn the Mafuba in 5 minutes (and please don't go on a tirade about Goku being "dumb" because it's not the point I'm interested in here), yet now it's fine that Bulma can invent a new machine in a couple of minutes? I call that "childhood nostalgia".

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t remember Super being ‘massacred’ for Trunks learning the Mafuba quickly. He’s a Saiyan with Bulma’s intellect, so it’s not far-fetched for him to pick it up fast, especially with guidance. On the other hand, Goku’s questionable characterization in Super has been a recurring point of criticism, so it’s understandable that people bring it up often.

[super michael]

And Namekian elders are known to grant amazing power to talented fighters. Neva specifically is known as a powerful being, who created the Demonic Dragon Balls and its terrifying wardens, and the barriers and entry points of the realm.

I did mention that Namekians are known for their mysterious powers, powers that they haven't shown.
So how Neva was written is actually really good, I don't have any problem with that. Although I did mention this in my other post.

Bulma creating that machine is plausible, Bulma doing it in 2 minutes while Baby was getting stomped by Goku is not. All Baby did was plant an egg inside of her, I don't recall this egg being capable of turning Bulma into some otherworldly entity who can invent a genius new machine in a couple of minutes.

We don't really when know when Bebi Bulma started creating the Blutz Wave machine, although a few minutes sounds about right. Those infected with Bebi egg, they were able to use ki and fly, at least that is how Bra was able to fly. Without Bebi we never see her fly.
So Bebi enhancing Bulma should be possible.

If the Namekian elder can grant Krillin amazing power, I don't know why an even more ancient and powerful elder from the Demon Realm couldn't grant Goku an amazing new form.

I have no problem with that, although Elder Guru gave both Gohan and Kuririn amazing powers. Elder Guru even unlocked Dende ability to heal. So yes I can believe Neva powers would be more advance.

Only because of nostalgia for the old childhood show/GT.

Using the Earth to mimic the Moon's light is a convenient new rule that was never mentioned before, just like the reveal that Saiyans possess S-Cells that are directly linked to their battle power and their ability to turn into a Super Saiyan; which, might I remind, was a reveal vehemently hated by this fandom because the new series is not allowed to introduce new and revolutionizing concepts.

Nah, let's call it what it is: nostalgia. It's just that.

This fandom absolutely MASSACRED DBS for having Trunks learn the Mafuba in 5 minutes (and please don't go on a tirade about Goku being "dumb" because it's not the point I'm interested in here), yet now it's fine that Bulma can invent a new machine in a couple of minutes? I call that "childhood nostalgia".

There is Man-Wolf from the 22nd Martial Art Tournament, Master Roshi used Kuririn head and his technique to substitute the moon to turn Man-Wolf back to normal. So knowing this why is it hard to believe using other planets to transform into his Oozaru form is possible?

No one has ever tried to use other planet as a substitute to transform into their Oozaru form. As for the S-Cells and Caulifla focusing on her tingly back to transform, I don't have any problem with that.

Nostalgia isn't the reason why I don't have a problem with Bulma invention and how the Saiyans transformed into their Oozar forum in GT.


I wasn't going to bring up Goku being dumb. Future Trunks learning the Mafuba in 5 minutes doesn't seem bad, it isn't like he mastered the technique. Future Trunks had a bit of help from Mai, to help him seal Zamasu.


I don't hate everything about DBS, I want to make this clear. DBS has its good points.

[Jord]

While classic DB has been a big influence on other artists and anime, this revival era feels like a parody of classic DB, building a "story" based on tropes and nostalgia. Battle of Gods was a nice slice of nostalgia but DB Super definitely falls into the parody territory.
Long, drawn out adaptations of the first two movies, stretched with fillers.

Beerus was an original idea.
Everything after it became a game of "remember this?". Remember Freeza, Gogeta, Broly (now both in female as well as in "new" form), Future Trunks, Gohan's SSJ2 transformation against Cell, Vegetto, Android 17, Ginyu?
Story took a backseat to nostalgia baiting with a year long tournament without any tension, a weak body swap story with a ridiculous ending and boring rematches with villains we've seen before. Spruced up with "new" forms that are simply recolors, not daring to do anything visually daring and characters that actually regressed. New characters like Zamasu and Jiren were onedimensional, boring troped characters. Zamasu was Ginyu but arrogant instead of goofy and Jiren was the personification of the stoic character trope.

It's no wonder the Super anime stopped after only around 120 episodes. Which may have been double of GT's number of episodes but while GT followed after round 450 episodes of DB/Z, Super came after a long drought of DB content. You would think it would be successful enough to get more episodes. Now that the hype is over, it is refreshing to see a lot of people recognize Super for what it was. A parody anime with bad writing, relying on Shonen tropes and nostalgia.