Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[MCDaveG]

Duu turning "Super Saiyan 3" reminds me of Neko Majin turning "Super Saiyan". This was actually the highlight of the episode for me. If this was the major transformation we got, I would've been fine with it.

I would have preferred no new transformations at all for the old characters and instead would rather have gotten one for one of the new characters instead. But as far as what it turned out to be, I'm actually pretty indifferent to it. Super Saiyan 4 was a good design and I like the changes made to it as well, I guess. Not sure what's going on with his hands and arms and apparently Super Saiyan 4 also changes your pants yellow? I noticed they changed back to orange when he went back to base form which is kinda funny. If they wanted Goku to transform so bad, I still would have preferred something entirely new that included pointy ears (let's call it Demon Goku), but whatever. And yeah, Neva is a total deus ex machina. If he's gonna have all these abilities, there needs to be some type of consequence introduced.

I'm also glad to see that Arinsu decided to take the dragon balls after all. I knew that opening to take them from last episode was too good not to take. As far as what the wish is gonna turn out to be; I think it's pretty obvious. Maybe they'll throw us a curveball and make it something else, but I can't think of anything else that would be good enough. I am hoping that it turns out to be something else that does work out, though.

I have perfect explanation
The aura dyed his pants yellow ))

[SSGpotota]

If this was SSJ4, why didn't Goku turn back to an adult?

[MisteryOne]

When I remembered Daima was airing on the 14 it was really late over here and at first I thought I was somehow too drunk or something. Wtf did I just watch?

By now people will have probably pointed out everything I say, but alright...I just don't understand many things. For starters, we have Vegeta not using SS3. So we didn’t even get a team up with the form. Instead, we got whatever Duu did, which admitedly, is pretty funny and obviously ridiculous on purpouse. I liked that.

Then we have the elephant in the room. The proof that while some of us were trying to justify Toriyama just forgetting the Kibitoshin thing, and others why Vegeta didn’t use SS3 on a rage against Beerus (still have not seen anything satisfying for that), they never cared. They were just planning to throw SS4 in the mix. It is, however, a completely worse version of SS4, and I say that as someone who was never that big on the GT one as the fandom seems to be.

For starters, the most important thing- it was completely pointless and didn’t truly archieve anything. You could have removed it, and nothing would have changed about the episode. There was not even exposition or wonder about the form, which I think it's incredibly telling because we are talking about Daima! Other than Goku looking at his tail initially, there is nothing. Even the writers know how random and unfitting this is. There is no build up like in GT. There is no unique mechanic. It's just another Neva power up that by the power of fanservice just happens to look like SS4.

I also have problems with the design on a vacuum. Never, not even as a kid, was I fan of the random red fur coming from Ozaru, golden or not. Here, Goku is full magenta, genuinely like the Limit Breaker Heroes form. Why? Some tupe of relationship with SSGod? Sounds like until Toyotaro tries to fix it, we won't know. He still being a child doesn't bother me, but the weird thing with his arms do. Why do they grow specifically? Is it supposed to be some kind of more Oozaru-like proportions? Then why does he have less hair on the wrists? Just very weird all around.

The worst part? This could have been an amazing episode without that. Finally we get the Glorio subplot to reach the climax, as cliché as it seems. Guess it's also worth talking how extremely ubderwhelming Porunga was. Why does it have the same name and design to begin with? I fully expected Daima to give us exposition about the original eternal dragon and how it relates to others. Why is it the only one so similar? Not even demon horns or anything, is just Porunga.

I guess I will have to give credit- everyone thought a bug fusion was coming instead. We got trolled hard by SS4. But that really isn't a good thing at all, because we never saw it coming because of how ridiculously random and out of nowhere it is. Really wish Broly had been the one to get SS4 in canon.

[Luso Saiyan]

I never liked the design of SSJ4 and this type of out of the blue, blatant, shoehorned fan service makes it even worse. It feels like a punch in the gut. This is the type of stuff I expect from DBH, not a Toriyama-related production.

Irrespective of whatever lore or reason they tie to this in the next episodes, it should never have turned out into SSJ4 in all but name.

[LightBing]

It becomes hard to enjoy the good things when it's all wrapped in short-sighted nostalgia/pandering/money making, etc...

Like last episode the writing cares not about tension and logic.
It's all bullet points:
Goku goes SSJ3, Doo and Tamagami join( this is for sure in Toriyama's script, probably to highlight the three strongest fighters), everyone else joins again when they should've been out(classic Super unlimited durability), Vegeta is the exception since it's obvious he'll get a bigger role latter and finally a new transformation without any story!

Voilâ, that's how one becomes a Dragon Ball writer! At this point just use AI, human creativity doesn't seem part of the recipe.

Now for the enjoyable and decently written parts.

The animation and action are top tier. A bit too many close shots but still great. Goku vs Tamagami 3 is still the best fight in the series.

Glad Glorio wasn't forgotten, although would've liked a bit more effort than flashbacks.
Steadily Daima cued us about his changes, his apparent betrayal was earned. I still want to know why he's working with Arinsu, what ultimately motivates him. Next episode better deliver in this regard.

Doo going SSJ3 was the best transformation of the episode. The Majin brothers are hilarious.

Seems pretty obvious that the best hits parade will continue and Gogeta 2.0 with the fusion bugs is in the cards. Let's see if it comes about or if there's a bit of creativity in there.

PS: To people losing their marbles. Does this media erase GT? Are Toei agents coming into your house and destroying GT DVDs and figures?
You can still enjoy it and prefer it! Nobody, not even Toriyama can do anything about it.
If anyone throws "canon" to validate their preference as superior, ignore them. We already have too much tribalism in real life to have it too in Dragon Ball.

[sangofe]

What do people think Glori's wish was? I think it was to make everyone adult again as he said something with "child".

The intensity of the feelings that I felt watching this can't be described. Is it creatively bankrupt? Sure. Is it cheap writing? Sure. It's whatever you want, but all of that isn't why I watch dragonball. This episode made me feel like I was a kid again, and I think that's exactly the feeling daima is trying to capture, so in my opinion, it succeeded.

Advice for everyone, looking at this through the eyes of a cynical grown up won't do you any good, it's like trying to listen to a piece of music with your nose and not your ears, you're using the wrong sense. Dragonball is to be experienced with your heart, not your brain

Probably the wisest comment on this forum (and apologies for my long-winded diatribe below diluting your succinct point).

I like to analyse Dragon Ball as much as the next guy here, but I've stopped trying so hard to intellectualise it. I'd go so far as to say that if you're using words longer than 13 letters when discussing it, you're overdoing it (joking, partially). Anything "intellectual" you'll find in Dragon Ball is mere trivial information (which, admittedly, Daima does have a lot of). Useless in reality, as was intended by the original author and editor.

At its heart, Dragon Ball is an emotionally-driven story, whether it's trying to be funny, dramatic, or just getting you hyped up like a kid in a candy shop.

Case in point, while watching this episode, I too was thinking (I know, ew) in the back of my mind about this whole turn of events being kind of a cheap asspull, very little build-up, etc.

But all those lovely good chemicals - the dopamine, the adrenaline - overrode any of that lame intellectual posturing from the left side of my brain. Once you stop resisting and embrace that feeling, you'll have a better time. I'm shameless in saying that I experience Dragon Ball through a purposefully dumbed-down lens, because on some level, that's how it's supposed to be viewed, IMO. I had a great time with this episode overall. I like this new take on Super Saiyan 4. I love Duu and Tamagami #1 teaming up with the heroes. The cliffhanger was pretty good, too.

We've also gotta be honest with ourselves, almost none of us fall within the target audience of this show. I'm aware that one of the producers said that the show was a tribute to GT fans, which is all the more obvious in this episode, but it's meant to be something that those older viewers can watch with their kids, who are the real target audience.

I may not always agree with everything the likes of Baggins, Zephyr and Majin Buu say. Hell, I've prodded them a couple time when I've had those disagreements. But I'll say with total bluntness that their contributions are a thousand times more valuable than all the performative whinging I see by people who openly despise the show and don't want to honestly engage with it (or make better use of their time by doing literally anything more enjoyable to them).

This forum sadly never seems to change on that front, and I'm embarrassed to say I've contributed to a negative, unwelcoming atmosphere in the past. Yeah, cynical adult working life sucks and you sometimes need to get shit out of your system, but as Julie said, hating a cartoon isn't a substitute for a personality. For the sake of your own spiritual wellbeing, find other shit that makes you happier.

Yes, yes, you nailed it, PhantomSaiyan! The intensity! The awesome choreography! So amazing!

[dbs fanboy]

What do people think Glori's wish was? I think it was to make everyone adult again as he said something with "child".

The intensity of the feelings that I felt watching this can't be described. Is it creatively bankrupt? Sure. Is it cheap writing? Sure. It's whatever you want, but all of that isn't why I watch dragonball. This episode made me feel like I was a kid again, and I think that's exactly the feeling daima is trying to capture, so in my opinion, it succeeded.

Advice for everyone, looking at this through the eyes of a cynical grown up won't do you any good, it's like trying to listen to a piece of music with your nose and not your ears, you're using the wrong sense. Dragonball is to be experienced with your heart, not your brain

Probably the wisest comment on this forum (and apologies for my long-winded diatribe below diluting your succinct point).

I like to analyse Dragon Ball as much as the next guy here, but I've stopped trying so hard to intellectualise it. I'd go so far as to say that if you're using words longer than 13 letters when discussing it, you're overdoing it (joking, partially). Anything "intellectual" you'll find in Dragon Ball is mere trivial information (which, admittedly, Daima does have a lot of). Useless in reality, as was intended by the original author and editor.

At its heart, Dragon Ball is an emotionally-driven story, whether it's trying to be funny, dramatic, or just getting you hyped up like a kid in a candy shop.

Case in point, while watching this episode, I too was thinking (I know, ew) in the back of my mind about this whole turn of events being kind of a cheap asspull, very little build-up, etc.

But all those lovely good chemicals - the dopamine, the adrenaline - overrode any of that lame intellectual posturing from the left side of my brain. Once you stop resisting and embrace that feeling, you'll have a better time. I'm shameless in saying that I experience Dragon Ball through a purposefully dumbed-down lens, because on some level, that's how it's supposed to be viewed, IMO. I had a great time with this episode overall. I like this new take on Super Saiyan 4. I love Duu and Tamagami #1 teaming up with the heroes. The cliffhanger was pretty good, too.

We've also gotta be honest with ourselves, almost none of us fall within the target audience of this show. I'm aware that one of the producers said that the show was a tribute to GT fans, which is all the more obvious in this episode, but it's meant to be something that those older viewers can watch with their kids, who are the real target audience.

I may not always agree with everything the likes of Baggins, Zephyr and Majin Buu say. Hell, I've prodded them a couple time when I've had those disagreements. But I'll say with total bluntness that their contributions are a thousand times more valuable than all the performative whinging I see by people who openly despise the show and don't want to honestly engage with it (or make better use of their time by doing literally anything more enjoyable to them).

This forum sadly never seems to change on that front, and I'm embarrassed to say I've contributed to a negative, unwelcoming atmosphere in the past. Yeah, cynical adult working life sucks and you sometimes need to get shit out of your system, but as Julie said, hating a cartoon isn't a substitute for a personality. For the sake of your own spiritual wellbeing, find other shit that makes you happier.

Yes, yes, you nailed it, PhantomSaiyan! The intensity! The awesome choreography! So amazing!

He turned Gomah into a child to even the field

[sangofe]

What do people think Glori's wish was? I think it was to make everyone adult again as he said something with "child".

Probably the wisest comment on this forum (and apologies for my long-winded diatribe below diluting your succinct point).

I like to analyse Dragon Ball as much as the next guy here, but I've stopped trying so hard to intellectualise it. I'd go so far as to say that if you're using words longer than 13 letters when discussing it, you're overdoing it (joking, partially). Anything "intellectual" you'll find in Dragon Ball is mere trivial information (which, admittedly, Daima does have a lot of). Useless in reality, as was intended by the original author and editor.

At its heart, Dragon Ball is an emotionally-driven story, whether it's trying to be funny, dramatic, or just getting you hyped up like a kid in a candy shop.

Case in point, while watching this episode, I too was thinking (I know, ew) in the back of my mind about this whole turn of events being kind of a cheap asspull, very little build-up, etc.

But all those lovely good chemicals - the dopamine, the adrenaline - overrode any of that lame intellectual posturing from the left side of my brain. Once you stop resisting and embrace that feeling, you'll have a better time. I'm shameless in saying that I experience Dragon Ball through a purposefully dumbed-down lens, because on some level, that's how it's supposed to be viewed, IMO. I had a great time with this episode overall. I like this new take on Super Saiyan 4. I love Duu and Tamagami #1 teaming up with the heroes. The cliffhanger was pretty good, too.

We've also gotta be honest with ourselves, almost none of us fall within the target audience of this show. I'm aware that one of the producers said that the show was a tribute to GT fans, which is all the more obvious in this episode, but it's meant to be something that those older viewers can watch with their kids, who are the real target audience.

I may not always agree with everything the likes of Baggins, Zephyr and Majin Buu say. Hell, I've prodded them a couple time when I've had those disagreements. But I'll say with total bluntness that their contributions are a thousand times more valuable than all the performative whinging I see by people who openly despise the show and don't want to honestly engage with it (or make better use of their time by doing literally anything more enjoyable to them).

This forum sadly never seems to change on that front, and I'm embarrassed to say I've contributed to a negative, unwelcoming atmosphere in the past. Yeah, cynical adult working life sucks and you sometimes need to get shit out of your system, but as Julie said, hating a cartoon isn't a substitute for a personality. For the sake of your own spiritual wellbeing, find other shit that makes you happier.

Yes, yes, you nailed it, PhantomSaiyan! The intensity! The awesome choreography! So amazing!

He turned Gomah into a child to even the field

That'd be hilarious lol. Did they say if it's only one wish you can get granted?

[nineko]

That reminds me, this topic should be updated now that we know the name of the dragon. I'm not sure about the number of wishes, though, I thought it was implied that it's only one?

[The Monkey King]

Dragonball is to be experienced with your heart, not your brain

No sorry. Not buying this ""just turn off your heckin' brain!" copout nonsense. The best of Dragon Ball's transformations (SSJ1, 2 and God, hell even UI and UE) meant something and tied into the story of the arc. This "SSJ4" is just meaningless, ugly, asspull trash.

It's not a "good story" by any means... and honestly, it's not trying to be. What it is, is a silly Dragon Quest adventure disguised as a DB story. And it's okay.

The difference being that Dragon Quest games can tell good stories?? Have you even played DQXI? Because I don't think you have.

Jesus, is this what Dragon Ball "fans" have been reduced to? "It's not good but that's okay just give me more branded content slop!"

[Mr Baggins]

But if anything, Akio Iyoku is far more responsible for the rehashing than Toriyama, as is Toei.

I can only imagine the conversation that went down while they were designing this thing.

Iyoku: "Toriyama-sensei, we asked for Super Saiyan 4. You just drew Super Saiyan God again!"
Toriyama: "Huh? But that WAS my version of Super Saiyan 4!"
Iyoku: "But make it more like GT's version!"
Toriyama: "Ugh, fine..." *proceeds to draw GT's version with SSG colors*
Iyoku and Toriyama: (laughs)

Jokes aside, I enjoy this form the same way I enjoyed Orange Piccolo. Concessions were made by Toriyama to please some guy in a suit that just wants to cash in on nostalgia, and I can guarantee that with Toriyama's passing this franchise is inevitably going to shit if it continues, but what's there is at least pretty fun. I like the big goofy Donkey Kong forearms and Goku doing the primal run; it gives this form some personality I thought was sorely lacking in GT. I like that it's a red herring that didn't really accomplish much in the end. I hope that the next episode's fighting gives us something a little more substantive and less predictable than another Goku-Vegeta fusion beating Gomah in the most straightforward manner possible.

But truthfully, my love for this episode is that it managed to balance everything I've enjoyed about Daima thus far. The hilarity was there with the Super Majin Bros. The fun action was there with Goku. The narrative substance was there with Glorio. There's still a chance for the next two episodes to completely miss the mark, but this week gave me hope that they won't.

[Kid Goku X Shenron]

But if anything, Akio Iyoku is far more responsible for the rehashing than Toriyama, as is Toei.

I can only imagine the conversation that went down while they were designing this thing.

Iyoku: "Toriyama-sensei, we asked for Super Saiyan 4. You just drew Super Saiyan God again!"
Toriyama: "Huh? But that WAS my version of Super Saiyan 4!"
Iyoku: "But make it more like GT's version!"
Toriyama: "Ugh, fine..." *proceeds to draw GT's version with SSG colors*
Iyoku and Toriyama: (laughs)

Jokes aside, I enjoy this form the same way I enjoyed Orange Piccolo. Concessions were made by Toriyama to please some guy in a suit that just wants to cash in on nostalgia, and I can guarantee that with Toriyama's passing this franchise is inevitably going to shit if it continues, but what's there is at least pretty fun. I like the big goofy Donkey Kong forearms and Goku doing the primal run; it gives this form some personality I thought was sorely lacking in GT. I like that it's a red herring that didn't really accomplish much in the end. I hope that the next episode's fighting gives us something a little more substantive and less predictable than another Goku-Vegeta fusion beating Gomah in the most straightforward manner possible.

But truthfully, my love for this episode is that it managed to balance everything I've enjoyed about Daima thus far. The hilarity was there with the Super Majin Bros. The fun action was there with Goku. The narrative substance was there with Glorio. There's still a chance for the next two episodes to completely miss the mark, but this week gave me hope that they won't.

It's hard for me to believe it can be more shit than what Toriyama has given us in these past 20 years, no offense.
I mean he hand picked Toyotaro and based how edgy and soulless his stuff can be you can be right that it can get worse.
For the past 20 years we have gotten so many asspull transformations, zero emotional interactions or weight to a plot. It's just silly dumb humor a second then few episodes of random powerful bad guy, our heroes get random powerful asspull transformations rinse and repeat. It was basically DB heroes with Toriyamas humor added in which has been quite hit and miss as well. Toyotaro doesn't even have that Toriyama magic in regards to humor and fun which is my biggest worry. Goku running on all 4s and having goofy arms gave you a sense of personality to this form that was lacking in GT ? Gotta disagree with you on that. I saw nothing in Daima SSJ4 that gave me any sense of anything good to this form. It was just oh here's an uglier version of SSJ4 enjoy. Goku in SSJ4 in GT had a completely different personality initially. He was more Saiyan than he has ever been. He killed Ice in cold blood, punched a hole in him and wasn't satisfied and incinerated his corpse with a Dragon Fist. He legit was scary initially and it tied a lot closer to his Saiyan roots in everything compared to whatever magenta thing we got here. For the record GT isn't good either. But both transformations are night and day both design and personality wise.

Beerus, Whis, Kuu, Duu it's clear Toriyama can write fun characters. The sad part is he didn't care and barely made use of them before jumping back to DB heroes style of writing. We're stuck in this hellish loop of repeating the same thing over and over without diving into what made DB great. I miss characters like Chi Chi, Launch, Roshi, Krillin, Yamcha. I wanna explore Whis/Beerus a lot more. But Toriyama just introduces cool characters and throws them in the trash or barely uses them and reverts back to this repeat of 1 dumb silly humor followed by a long arc of mindless fights ki blasts asspull transformations that 50% of the time ends with fusion. I swear if Daima has fusion it will be the worst series of DB by a long shot for me. And isn't it funny how in One Punch Man the hero always defeats the villain yet the last time the hero of DB defeated a villain on his own was what 30 years ago ? lol. Yet One Punch Man is superior to DB in writing. Goku has been utterly useless in Daima. They introduced SSJ4 only to do absolutely nothing lol. And we'll probably never see it again.

My dream is one day to have DB episodes that isn't about a pissing contest and we get to see Goku and Chichi spend more time together like in OG DB, or a nights out with the boys. We need more of these character moments. Super had them too btw when Piccolo and Goku were on the roof and Goku was playing with Pan. Those are the moments I cherish the most.

Ah well lets hope for the best in the future.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

No sorry. Not buying this ""just turn off your heckin' brain!" copout nonsense.

This is a new thing to justify modern DB's shortcomings.

For starters, we have Vegeta not using SS3. So we didn’t even get a team up with the form.

I like how we got 4 episodes of nothingness starting with episode 13, yet for some reason we couldn't get a Ssj3 team up against the Majin brothers. I have no doubt that Vegeta will reuse Ssj3 in the next episode (or maybe even fake Ssj4), but why not have this perfectly set up team battle ?

[ZeroNeonix]

It's hilarious how divisive this episode is. It seems everyone either loves it or hates it. I liked it.

People are complaining about SSJ4's arms. They make Goku more ape-like. I think that's also why he didn't magically become an adult. It helps to give him those ape-like proportions. Look at the way he moves. Running on all fours, swinging around Gomah's arm with his tail. It's very deliberate. The form is ironically more ape-like than the GT version, which was an evolution of the Golden Oozaru.

I also like the colors. The black hair of the original never made sense to me. The original SSJ4 design is too busy. Daima's version is simplified and streamlined. In my opinion, it's an improvement.

I also liked the rest of what happened in the episode. Duu powering up and imitating SSJ3 was funny. Gomah bouncing Goku on the ground like a basketball. And yeah, SSJ4 was a big surprise to me, even though I predicted it before the show even released, due to its similarities to GT. But contrary to what people are saying, it didn't come out of nowhere. They showed that Neva has the power to power people up. He did it before when Vegeta was fighting for the second Dragon Ball, to give him more of a challenge.

With only two more episodes to go, I'm really curious where this is going to go. Hopefully, the ending doesn't feel rushed. I feel like they have one and a half episodes left before the big bad (Gomah or some secret bigger baddie) to be defeated, and half an episode to wrap things up.

Who will end up ruling the Demon Realms when it's all over? Glorio? Pansy? Her father? Maybe Piccolo? Or maybe they'll opt to let each world decide for themselves who should rule, giving them each indepence. After the lower worlds were oppressed for so long, I doubt they'd be opposed to that idea. But I'd put my money on Demon King Piccolo ruling the three worlds in peace. Would it contradict with Super? Maybe. But when has that ever stopped them? lol

[Saturnine]

See, the whole idea of the Golden Oozaru was kind of the biggest piece of evidence that the SSj4 concept was mistimed. They had to create this whole "higher" ape form in order to justify the whole ape direction, since the SSj forms were placed as significantly better than the Oozaru transformation in the first place. So in order for the new form to justifiably place above SSj3, they had to base it on an improved ape form.

But that makes the original color scheme of the form even more inexplicable.

[Mister_Popo]

First of all: I thought this episode was really good. Honestly, truly. When something is good, I’ll say it. So far, Daima has been a wild ride for me, full of ups and downs. Last week, I was mainly impressed by the animation but felt that the story was lacking in tying up loose ends. However, today, not only was the animation top-tier, but the storyboarding was also up to standard — a fitting way to wrap up an anime that serves as a tribute to 40 years of Dragon Ball. Right now, more than anything, I feel grateful that Akira Toriyama left us this final gift.

I’ll leave the animation breakdown to the experts, but I think we can agree—whether you liked the events of the episode or not—that the battle sequences were spectacularly animated, with incredibly dynamic camerawork. Every detail was taken care of. Even the sound effects—like when Goku dove down in SSJ4—were great. A ridiculous amount of effort must have gone into this. I don’t know if Akira got to see this before his passing, but he would have undoubtedly been proud.

Beyond the stunning animation, the story took a turn that sets Daima up for a satisfying conclusion. Sometimes, it’s the small, brilliant touches that make all the difference. Majin Duu getting a power boost from a giant chocolate cookie and then imitating SSJ3? That’s pure genius! The execution was also spot-on. I was pleasantly surprised that this wasn’t just another all-Goku episode—characters like Duu and Kuu, Piccolo, Glorio, Tamagami 1, and even Neva all had their moments to shine. The most notable absence was Vegeta—maybe they’re saving him for a big moment in episode 19?

Another hilarious touch was the scene where the dragon appeared and effortlessly swatted away a now-massively giant Gomah—who, despite his size, was still no larger than the dragon’s hand—with a single finger. It perfectly highlighted Gomah’s parodic nature (his Pilaf-like traits) while also serving as a reminder that power scaling in Dragon Ball should never be taken too seriously. A massive power boost often means nothing in the grand scheme of things—there’s always someone (or something) far stronger.

One of the best aspects of this episode—and something crucial to giving Daima the ending it deserves—was finally seeing Glorio’s internal struggle play out as he was forced to make a final choice. In hindsight, we should have seen this struggle much earlier. It would have given Glorio a more defined character arc rather than just the poker face we’ve mostly seen until now. But I’m glad we finally got to see it before the end. If Glorio’s betrayal had either been ignored or only briefly addressed in the final episode, it would have felt like a major loose end left unresolved.

Lastly, the much-discussed and controversial transformation. The way the new SSJ4 was achieved actually made perfect sense to me. Back in the Namek saga, Grand Elder Guru unlocked the hidden potential of Gohan and Krillin. So we already know that elder Namekians have magical abilities that can boost a character’s ki. Neva plays that same role here, removing a barrier within Goku that allows him to break his limits. It’s not the same explanation as in GT, but it doesn’t need to be—this is an entirely different continuity.
Piccolo was one of Toriyama's favorite characters. He loved the Namekians. Neva really plays the role of a "deus ex machina" in the story, making a difference in those moments when everything seems hopeless (by lifting the barrier to Demon World 1 and now by lifting the barrier within Goku). But he is also the one who set everything in motion at the beginning by helping Gomah with his wish. He is always there when the plot advances. It wouldn't surprise me if Toriyama with Neva specifically created his own self-inserted character for the 40th anniversary of Dragon Ball.

What I did find disappointing was that the new SSJ4 looks almost exactly like the original form (even though I still prefer the original design aesthetically). It would have been more interesting if this new form had drawn inspiration from the classic design while still introducing something fresh. For instance, a mix of Sun Wukong elements with a hint of SSJ4 — like Dragonmobot 12 suggested in this topic viewtopic.php?t=49348 — would have been a true "best of both worlds" approach: a fusion of an established concept with something new. But that’s just a matter of personal preference, and since it’s purely subjective, I’m not going to use it as a reason to bring down what was otherwise an outstanding episode.

[MisteryOne]

No sorry. Not buying this ""just turn off your heckin' brain!" copout nonsense.

This is a new thing to justify modern DB's shortcomings.

For starters, we have Vegeta not using SS3. So we didn’t even get a team up with the form.

I like how we got 4 episodes of nothingness starting with episode 13, yet for some reason we couldn't get a Ssj3 team up against the Majin brothers. I have no doubt that Vegeta will reuse Ssj3 in the next episode (or maybe even fake Ssj4), but why not have this perfectly set up team battle ?

It pretty much ties in what I said last episode about this climax feeling like it has a lack of progression just to give Goku the spotlight.

It's hard to me to be amazed about how much better SS4 Goku is doing, if Vegeta is not even going full power yet. These last episodes are fantastic on a vacuum, but I can't ignore Vegeta is supposed to have SS3 now. If you want to sell me on Gomah being so ridiculously strong, I need to see more than him beating Goku until he goes SS3, then beating him again until he gets SS4, then beating him again. Maybe if hw had more intetesting abilities like Gas it would be better. But for now is pretty generic Ki stuff, and the best chreography still comes from Duu (and admitedly SS4).

I'm not even the kind of fan who gets all excited about Goku and Vegeta fighting together. It has been too overdone by now, the only time it kind of worked for me was in their ToP manga last stand (I remember twitter going crazy about Ultra Ego and Instict fighting together, while I could think was...this would be way more hype if Ego had been given proper time to shine instead of being matched so easily by Granolah after its cool debut). But it's just something basic they haven't done because it was apparently important to give so much build up to Goku's SS3 too.

Frankly, I'm genuinely worried that with only two episodes remaining, we are never seeing this SS4 in Daima again (it will definetly return in Super). It seems odd to me they would go through the effort of specifically having Goku power down through all his forms if they were going to give it back the very next episode. But maybe Glorio has indeed wished them back to adults, who knows. Neva is still around. I can't believe I have pacing concerns in Daima now, but I'm genuinely worried this form will manage to fill even more pointless...or maybe I'm overthinking it, and they ate just heading towards literal SS4 Gogeta (back when the bugs were revealed I thought it was kind of cool we were getting a different counterpart to Vegetto/Gogeta but now...)

While I'm disgressing, I really have to wonder aboit something: how long Dabura was King? Everyone thought the Tamagamis being defeated was this kind of impossible idea. Yet, with how ridiculously strong Gomah keeps getting, there is no way Abura couldn't have defeated the Tamagamis too. Also makes me curious given how strong red Porunga is, just how powerful Neva was on his prime.

Really wish we at least didn't know thwre is only two episodes left, because I can't even be excited about Arinsu or even Neva being the twist final enemy, there is just no time.

SS4 didn't come out of nowhere.

I'm sorry but your standards for writing must be below underground level if you are genuinely arguing this. There is a gigantic difference between "Neva can power up one of his creations and give it a different aura" to "Neva can power up a completely different being and allow it to evolve into the next form, which also somehow giving it back racial traits including growing fur and a tail, which also goes away afterwards". There is absolutely no explanation or buildup for this SS4, not it is like the unlocking potential ability we have seen from previous Namekians. If GT didn't exist, there would be a wave of theories about how it does even work. And if it doesn't stand up on its vacuum- as it should, given Daima is not in continuity with GT- then it isn't very well written, not does it have thw proper setup. The only reason we are not confused about rhis SS4 is because we have seen the original before, so we are not questioning the random Oozaru traits. We just know it's for fanservice, nor unlike Broly's green hair.

Hell, if Neva can do this, why has he not done it before? Why is he not powering up Piccolo and Vegeta too? Why didn't he do it right away if he was really that scared of the Third Eye?

It's as easy as to just ask: the people who were expecting SS4 to show up in Daima, were they doing it bevause of the GT nostalgia, or because there was some kind of hint at the form at all? If that's the case, were people also thinking it would be releated to Neva? There you have your answer as to why we think it's out of nowhere. It isn't even a bad thing as a concept, but let's not pretend it isn't the case.

[Jmass97]

So is this supposed to be "what if Goku got his potential unlocked?"

EIther way, how are they going to tie this back into the series?

There's no need to do so unless Broly works towards this power in the manga

Agreed.

[ZeroNeonix]

SS4 didn't come out of nowhere.

I'm sorry but your standards for writing must be below underground level if you are genuinely arguing this. There is a gigantic difference between "Neva can power up one of his creations and give it a different aura" to "Neva can power up a completely different being and allow it to evolve into the next form, which also somehow giving it back racial traits including growing fur and a tail, which also goes away afterwards". There is absolutely no explanation or buildup for this SS4, not it is like the unlocking potential ability we have seen from previous Namekians. If GT didn't exist, there would be a wave of theories about how it does even work. And if it doesn't stand up on its vacuum- as it should, given Daima is not in continuity with GT- then it isn't very well written, not does it have thw proper setup. The only reason we are not confused about rhis SS4 is because we have seen the original before, so we are not questioning the random Oozaru traits. We just know it's for fanservice, nor unlike Broly's green hair.

Hell, if Neva can do this, why has he not done it before? Why is he not powering up Piccolo and Vegeta too? Why didn't he do it right away if he was really that scared of the Third Eye?

It's as easy as to just ask: the people who were expecting SS4 to show up in Daima, were they doing it bevause of the GT nostalgia, or because there was some kind of hint at the form at all? If that's the case, were people also thinking it would be releated to Neva? There you have your answer as to why we think it's out of nowhere. It isn't even a bad thing as a concept, but let's not pretend it isn't the case.

If you have a point, you don't need to resort to ad hominem attacks. You're just being toxic. Elder Guru unlocked the potential of Gohan and Krillin. Neva is doing the same thing. We have seem multiple times by now that Neva, as the eldest living Namekian, has enormous magical power. If you assumed his ability to increase another's power was limited to his own creation, rather than foreshadowing, well you know what they say about assumptions.



As for why Neva didn't do this sooner... Maybe because he didn't want to? lol

[Jmass97]

The intensity of the feelings that I felt watching this can't be described. Is it creatively bankrupt? Sure. Is it cheap writing? Sure. It's whatever you want, but all of that isn't why I watch dragonball. This episode made me feel like I was a kid again, and I think that's exactly the feeling daima is trying to capture, so in my opinion, it succeeded.

Advice for everyone, looking at this through the eyes of a cynical grown up won't do you any good, it's like trying to listen to a piece of music with your nose and not your ears, you're using the wrong sense. Dragonball is to be experienced with your heart, not your brain

Wish more of the fandom could think like this tbh. I agree with all of this.