Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

No it wouldn't because Goku needs his tail for SS4, Neva's magic forcefully recreated the Tail and his magic forced Goku's body to dive deep into it's genetics to awaken SS4. SS4 was never considered in any shape way or form for DBS pre-Daima, and we don't even know what multiplier it has to begin with since it's the weakened Chibi versions of the characters in Daima who are only about 6 months ahead of the Buu Saga.

That's not an excuse. Beerus had more than enough time to waste, so Goku could have simply told him to come to the Demon realm with him or waited until he could bring Neva there.

The fact of the matter is: Goku evaluated everything he had achieved up to that point in his life, and concluded that everything he had wouldn't even tickle Lord Beerus. So SSJ4 is fodder to Beerus.

[QuakingStar]

No it wouldn't because Goku needs his tail for SS4, Neva's magic forcefully recreated the Tail and his magic forced Goku's body to dive deep into it's genetics to awaken SS4. SS4 was never considered in any shape way or form for DBS pre-Daima, and we don't even know what multiplier it has to begin with since it's the weakened Chibi versions of the characters in Daima who are only about 6 months ahead of the Buu Saga.

That's not an excuse. Beerus had more than enough time to waste, so Goku could have simply told him to come to the Demon realm with him or waited until he could bring Neva there.

The fact of the matter is: Goku evaluated everything he had achieved up to that point in his life, and concluded that everything he had wouldn't even tickle Lord Beerus. So SSJ4 is fodder to Beerus.

That's the one of the silliest responses I could have gotten to this. 1. Daima and SS4 didn't exist previously so SS$ was never even considered in any way by Toriyama or Toei for DBS, and 2. Goku would never even consider a form he cannot use on his own to begin with.

Why would they go to the Demon realm to get Neva when on EARTH the IMPATIENT Beerus was there ready to destroy it and the God ritual could be done right on Earth as well??

[SupremeKai25]

1. Daima and SS4 didn't exist previously so SS$ was never even considered in any way by Toriyama or Toei for DBS,

This cop-out is not a valid argument.

2. Goku would never even consider a form he cannot use on his own to begin with.

According to who? You? Where is this written?

Why would they go to the Demon realm to get Neva when on EARTH the IMPATIENT Beerus was there ready to destroy it and the God ritual could be done right on Earth as well??

Uhm, yeah, that's my point. There would be no reason to, because SSJ4 would not do anything to Beerus, which is why they didn't do that and simply went to the Earth.

Since this fandom loves linearity arguments like Jiren > Zamasu because new antagonist > old antagonist, then SSG > SSJ4 because new form > old form.

[Galan007]

No it wouldn't because Goku needs his tail for SS4, Neva's magic forcefully recreated the Tail and his magic forced Goku's body to dive deep into it's genetics to awaken SS4. SS4 was never considered in any shape way or form for DBS pre-Daima, and we don't even know what multiplier it has to begin with since it's the weakened Chibi versions of the characters in Daima who are only about 6 months ahead of the Buu Saga.

I was sorta/kinda being facetious when mentioning the possibility of a SS4 fusion. Giving Goku that form was already an asspull, imo... Shoehorning Vegeta into both SS3 AND SS4 in the same arc would honestly be facepalm-inducing for me -- but unfortunately still not out of the realm of possibility, with how fan-servicey they've been getting. That said, IF SS4 inextricably remains accessible to Goku after Daima has concluded(and I highly doubt it will), then yeah, it logically must be < SSG, as Goku had no other natural means of powering-up enough to contend with Beerus during BoG -- the Saiyan ritual(to unlock SSG) was heavily implied to be his only option. So even IF Goku was still capable of using SS4 during DBS/BoG, he clearly didn't think it would be helpful to at least try it out against Beerus(which logically scales it below SSG.)

But more to my original point- as of current Daima, both Goku and Vegeta CAN utilize SS3 independently, and fusion seems imminent(might just be a red herring, but the fusion bugs seem like a giant Chekhov's gun.) So IF we do end up getting a SS3 fusion, and Daima remains canon to DBS, then why wouldn't Goku's comment from BoG(wherein he stated that fusion would essentially be worthless against Beerus) also be applicable to this new fusion as well, thereby buffing the SSG multiplier even moreso?
ie. SSG(BoG) > SS3 fusion(Daima) > SS1 Vegetto(Boo arc) > base Vegetto(Boo arc) ~/> SS3 Goku ~ SS3 Vegeta.

Yes, I am aware that a canon Goku+Vegeta=SS3 fusion(nevermind a canon SS4) was never a thought in Toriyama's mind when he originally developed BoG... But retroactive retcons are a thing, and happen all the time in fiction(Toriyama himself has done it several times in the past.) So that's why I was asking. /shrug

[QuakingStar]

1. Daima and SS4 didn't exist previously so SS$ was never even considered in any way by Toriyama or Toei for DBS,

This cop-out is not a valid argument.

2. Goku would never even consider a form he cannot use on his own to begin with.

According to who? You? Where is this written?

Why would they go to the Demon realm to get Neva when on EARTH the IMPATIENT Beerus was there ready to destroy it and the God ritual could be done right on Earth as well??

Uhm, yeah, that's my point. There would be no reason to, because SSJ4 would not do anything to Beerus, which is why they didn't do that and simply went to the Earth.

Since this fandom loves linearity arguments like Jiren > Zamasu because new antagonist > old antagonist, then SSG > SSJ4 because new form > old form.

Nah, your arguments are still bad. He cannot consider something that doesn't exist especially when he cannot even use it on his own and it isn't easily accesible. Idk why you're trying so hard to powerscale a form that didn't even exist previously and was just used by a very weakened version of Goku(child) who would likely even be weaker than his base Buu Saga self because of that. We don't know how strong the form is or is not and you seem to desperately want it to be weaker than SSG so you treat it like it factually is and that's because you don't actually understand what I was explaining to you, and Jiren IS stronger than Fused Zamasu, because there is on screen proof. FZ was overpowered by SSB Goku's Kamehameha. Jiren was swatting SSB Goku away like he was a fly and overpowered SSBKKx20 Goku with ease.

[SupremeKai25]

1. Daima and SS4 didn't exist previously so SS$ was never even considered in any way by Toriyama or Toei for DBS,

This cop-out is not a valid argument.

2. Goku would never even consider a form he cannot use on his own to begin with.

According to who? You? Where is this written?

Why would they go to the Demon realm to get Neva when on EARTH the IMPATIENT Beerus was there ready to destroy it and the God ritual could be done right on Earth as well??

Uhm, yeah, that's my point. There would be no reason to, because SSJ4 would not do anything to Beerus, which is why they didn't do that and simply went to the Earth.

Since this fandom loves linearity arguments like Jiren > Zamasu because new antagonist > old antagonist, then SSG > SSJ4 because new form > old form.

Nah, your arguments are still bad. He cannot consider something that doesn't exist especially when he cannot even use it on his own and it isn't easily accesible. Idk why you're trying so hard to powerscale a form that didn't even exist previously and was just used by a very weakened version of Goku(child) who would likely even be weaker than his base Buu Saga self because of that. We don't know how strong the form is or is not and you seem to desperately want it to be weaker than SSG so you treat it like it factually is and that's because you don't actually understand what I was explaining to you, and Jiren IS stronger than Fused Zamasu, because there is on screen proof. FZ was overpowered by SSB Goku's Kamehameha. Jiren was swatting SSB Goku away like he was a fly and overpowered SSBKKx20 Goku with ease.

Nah. All I've seen from this fandom in these past 2 days is hypocrisy.

I constantly read things like

"Of course GT Goku is stronger than Super Goku, he's an older Goku, GT takes places in an older timeline than Super, etc."

But now suddenly the linearity is thrown out of the window? We know that Daima is a prequel to Super. We know that Goku in Super, before the God ritual, had absolutely nothing that could defeat Beerus. But sure, SSJ4 is still stronger than SSG, a newer form that appears later in the Canonical timeline, because... reasons... even though SSG is blatantly more impressive than SSJ4 in terms of feats and statements.

The only bad argument is the idea that we can't compare SSJ4 to SSG because... because? It wasn't a thing when Toriyama wrote BoG? So what? As if this fandom didn't constantly pit Buu saga characters against Cell saga characters and so on. Now apparently retroactive "retcons" started with Super and Daima it seems.

Daima is a prequel to Super. SSJ4 happens before SSG in the timeline. That much is clear.

It also doesn't help that this fandom can't seem to make up its mind on whether this new form is SSJ4 or something else.

[QuakingStar]

This cop-out is not a valid argument.


According to who? You? Where is this written?


Uhm, yeah, that's my point. There would be no reason to, because SSJ4 would not do anything to Beerus, which is why they didn't do that and simply went to the Earth.

Since this fandom loves linearity arguments like Jiren > Zamasu because new antagonist > old antagonist, then SSG > SSJ4 because new form > old form.

Nah, your arguments are still bad. He cannot consider something that doesn't exist especially when he cannot even use it on his own and it isn't easily accesible. Idk why you're trying so hard to powerscale a form that didn't even exist previously and was just used by a very weakened version of Goku(child) who would likely even be weaker than his base Buu Saga self because of that. We don't know how strong the form is or is not and you seem to desperately want it to be weaker than SSG so you treat it like it factually is and that's because you don't actually understand what I was explaining to you, and Jiren IS stronger than Fused Zamasu, because there is on screen proof. FZ was overpowered by SSB Goku's Kamehameha. Jiren was swatting SSB Goku away like he was a fly and overpowered SSBKKx20 Goku with ease.

Nah. All I've seen from this fandom in these past 2 days is hypocrisy.

I constantly read things like

"Of course GT Goku is stronger than Super Goku, he's an older Goku, GT takes places in an older timeline than Super, etc."

But now suddenly the linearity is thrown out of the window? We know that Daima is a prequel to Super. We know that Goku in Super, before the God ritual, had absolutely nothing that could defeat Beerus. But sure, SSJ4 is still stronger than SSG, a newer form that appears later in the Canonical timeline, because... reasons... even though SSG is blatantly more impressive than SSJ4 in terms of feats and statements.

The only bad argument is the idea that we can't compare SSJ4 to SSG because... because? It wasn't a thing when Toriyama wrote BoG? So what? As if this fandom didn't constantly pit Buu saga characters against Cell saga characters and so on. Now apparently retroactive "retcons" started with Super and Daima it seems.

Daima is a prequel to Super. SSJ4 happens before SSG in the timeline. That much is clear.

It also doesn't help that this fandom can't seem to make up its mind on whether this new form is SSJ4 or something else.

GT has nothing to do with anything, It's with DBS creation it became non-canon as GoDs, Angels God Ki etc. don't exist in it and the Skytree exhibit years ago made it clear that the DB and DBS Mangas were the "true stories". Daima didn't even exist until after DBS Super Heroes was finished and IS indeed a canon interquel. But like I said, this form is unnatural and cannot be attained by Goku again as is and he would know that. Secondly, having God Ki does not mean SSG is stronger. Gohan Beast does not have God Ki. Jiren did not have God Ki. Black Frieza does not have God Ki. In-universe current canon, Beerus was already on Earth and already impatient, and already was expecting a Super Saiyan God with Goku and the other Saiyans already on Earth and in a hurry to find out how to attain the SSG form there is no reason they would take the time to travel ALL the way to the Demon Realm regardless.

Idk why that all bothers you so much, it's fiction. You'll be ok.

[Hulk10]

Hmm good point about Gohan Beast form.

[QuakingStar]

Thanks, Orange Piccolo isn't even confirmed to have God Ki either. It's left ambiguous as to whether Goten and Trunks goofed up or not.

[Hulk10]

Thanks, Orange Piccolo isn't even confirmed to have God Ki either. It's left ambiguous as to whether Goten and Trunks goofed up or not.

Well they fused into fat Gotenks so they did something wrong.

[QuakingStar]

That was their finger alignments being off for the Fusion, while seperated they apparently could not sense where Piccolo was while he was using Orange Piccolo then it's jokingly made out to be because of them messing up or slacking or something.

[Saiyan007]

Question:
If indeed we get an actual SS3 fusion(or hell, maybe even a SS4 fusion at this rate) in Daima, would that retroactively give SSG Goku even more of a verifiable buff, given his statement in BoG that not even fusion would be enough to contend with Beerus(which potentially scales SSG above whatever Saiyan fusion we are likely to see in Daima)... Or am I missing something?

Yes it would granted SSG is already above a hypothetical Vegito from that same arc since Daima is a prequel it just makes the characters from Super stronger

The lore of battle of gods is SSJG is a massive power amp that amazes Goku's comprehension

[Hulk10]

That was their finger alignments being off for the Fusion, while seperated they apparently could not sense where Piccolo was while he was using Orange Piccolo then it's jokingly made out to be because of them messing up or slacking or something.

Yeah true.

[Saiyan007]

Secondly, having God Ki does not mean SSG is stronger. Gohan Beast does not have God Ki. Jiren did not have God Ki. Black Frieza does not have God Ki.

I don't think he ever mentioned God ki means he's stronger.Supreme Kai has god ki as well doesn't mean he beats anyone with non godly energy.Gohan and Jiren just scale off characters with insane feats

In-universe current canon, Beerus was already on Earth and already impatient, and already was expecting a Super Saiyan God with Goku and the other Saiyans already on Earth and in a hurry to find out how to attain the SSG form there is no reason they would take the time to travel ALL the way to the Demon Realm regardless.

Battle of Gods makes it clear that SSJG is more powerful than anything Goku had up to this point which would now include ssj4 since Daima is a prequel to Super

[QuakingStar]

Secondly, having God Ki does not mean SSG is stronger. Gohan Beast does not have God Ki. Jiren did not have God Ki. Black Frieza does not have God Ki.

I don't think he ever mentioned God ki means he's stronger.Supreme Kai has god ki as well doesn't mean he beats anyone with non godly energy.Gohan and Jiren just scale off characters with insane feats

In-universe current canon, Beerus was already on Earth and already impatient, and already was expecting a Super Saiyan God with Goku and the other Saiyans already on Earth and in a hurry to find out how to attain the SSG form there is no reason they would take the time to travel ALL the way to the Demon Realm regardless.

Battle of Gods makes it clear that SSJG is more powerful than anything Goku had up to this point which would now include ssj4 since Daima is a prequel to Super

Nope, all Goku had in the continuity that was referred to was Vegito SS(Only because they mentioned fusion) and SS3. He most assuredly was not referring to anything else. All he needed were potara earings or fusion dance for fusion, and he already had SS3 that he could use on his own. He says that Super Saiyan 3 was the best he had, the other option was fusion. That was it. We don't know how Daimas SS4 form is, your OPINION is that SSG is stronger than SS4 and that's fine.

[SupremeKai25]

Secondly, having God Ki does not mean SSG is stronger. Gohan Beast does not have God Ki. Jiren did not have God Ki. Black Frieza does not have God Ki.

I don't think he ever mentioned God ki means he's stronger.Supreme Kai has god ki as well doesn't mean he beats anyone with non godly energy.Gohan and Jiren just scale off characters with insane feats

In-universe current canon, Beerus was already on Earth and already impatient, and already was expecting a Super Saiyan God with Goku and the other Saiyans already on Earth and in a hurry to find out how to attain the SSG form there is no reason they would take the time to travel ALL the way to the Demon Realm regardless.

Battle of Gods makes it clear that SSJG is more powerful than anything Goku had up to this point which would now include ssj4 since Daima is a prequel to Super

Nope, all Goku had in the continuity that was referred to was Vegito SS(Only because they mentioned fusion) and SS3. He most assuredly was not referring to anything else. All he needed were potara earings or fusion dance for fusion, and he already had SS3 that he could use on his own. He says that Super Saiyan 3 was the best he had, the other option was fusion. That was it. We don't know how Daimas SS4 form is, your OPINION is that SSG is stronger than SS4 and that's fine.

Uhm, no, there's no different continuity. It's all Toriyama's continuity and in it Goku knew SSJ4 and yet didn't think anything could square up to Beerus. Daima is a prequel to Super and they exist in the same continuity which is Toriyama's.

Beerus > SSG > Gomah > SSJ4

Dragon Ball is a simple story.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku’s reaction to Beerus isn’t proof of anything. Goku never had SS4 in Super’s timeline to compare to Beerus. Even if Daima introduces a similar form, that doesn’t retroactively place SS4 into Super’s continuity.

Saying ‘it’s all one continuity’ ignores how Dragon Ball has been developed over the years. It has never been a single, unified timeline, even within Toriyama’s involvement. The franchise operates on multiple loosely connected narratives.

The Super manga and anime have major differences, the movies sometimes override the anime/manga and vice-versa. If anything, it’s more accurate to say that Dragon Ball consists of multiple parallel continuities rather than a single, uninterrupted storyline.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku’s reaction to Beerus isn’t proof of anything. Goku never had SS4 in Super’s timeline to compare to Beerus. Even if Daima introduces a similar form, that doesn’t retroactively place SS4 into Super’s continuity.

Saying ‘it’s all one continuity’ ignores how Dragon Ball has been developed over the years. It has never been a single, unified timeline, even within Toriyama’s involvement. The franchise operates on multiple loosely connected narratives.

The Super manga and anime have major differences, the movies sometimes override the anime/manga and vice-versa. If anything, it’s more accurate to say that Dragon Ball consists of multiple parallel continuities rather than a single, uninterrupted storyline.

Gowasu and the other Kais of the ToP literally appeared in a Daima flashback.

So we have Super characters who literally appear in Daima, but apparently Daima and Super are two different continuities. This is ridiculous. Why must things always be so over-complicated in this fandom?

[Hugo Boss]

It’s not complicated at all. Gowasu and the other Kais appearing in a flashback just acknowledges that Super exists in Daima’s framework, meaning that Super is something that could follow Daima. But that doesn’t mean Daima and Super share a single, uninterrupted continuity.

Dragon Ball has a history of running multiple parallel continuities. There are contradictions between Daima and Super, just like there are contradictions between the Super anime, manga, and movies. Akio Iyoku even hinted at this during Super Hero’s debut, suggesting that Dragon Ball has multiple valid canonical timelines.

Instead of treating it as one big, linear story, it’s more accurate to view it as different takes on the same universe, each exploring different ideas. That’s not ‘over-complicated’, it’s just how Dragon Ball has always operated.

[Xeogran]

What makes Gowasu and the other Kais, Super characters in particular? They debuted there for us viewers, yes. But in the DBverse, they should exist in every single series, GT included. Same goes for the GoDs, Angels and Zeno.

Rymus didn't appear in DBS, but he should still be the one who made 12 Universes according to the lore, even in there.