Do you think the Dragon Ball franchise nowadays has fallen into the realm of modern battle shounen?

[SupremeKai25]

While classic DB has been a big influence on other artists and anime, this revival era feels like a parody of classic DB, building a "story" based on tropes and nostalgia. Battle of Gods was a nice slice of nostalgia but DB Super definitely falls into the parody territory.
Long, drawn out adaptations of the first two movies, stretched with fillers.

Beerus was an original idea.
Everything after it became a game of "remember this?". Remember Freeza, Gogeta, Broly (now both in female as well as in "new" form), Future Trunks, Gohan's SSJ2 transformation against Cell, Vegetto, Android 17, Ginyu?
Story took a backseat to nostalgia baiting with a year long tournament without any tension, a weak body swap story with a ridiculous ending and boring rematches with villains we've seen before. Spruced up with "new" forms that are simply recolors, not daring to do anything visually daring and characters that actually regressed. New characters like Zamasu and Jiren were onedimensional, boring troped characters. Zamasu was Ginyu but arrogant instead of goofy and Jiren was the personification of the stoic character trope.

It's no wonder the Super anime stopped after only around 120 episodes. Which may have been double of GT's number of episodes but while GT followed after round 450 episodes of DB/Z, Super came after a long drought of DB content. You would think it would be successful enough to get more episodes. Now that the hype is over, it is refreshing to see a lot of people recognize Super for what it was. A parody anime with bad writing, relying on Shonen tropes and nostalgia.

1) The Super anime ended after 131 episodes, not "around 120 episodes", and I suppose we're just going to erase Broly, Super Hero, and the manga from existence? The first two of which were the most successful Dragon Ball movies ever, and the latter one of the most successful monthly entries in V-Jump.

Ultra Instinct literally caused streaming sites to go down because so many people were connecting, but sure Super was a failure. Lmao.

2) I noticed that you never replied to me when I presented this argument in support of Zamasu here

viewtopic.php?p=1797862#p1797862

You keep saying that Zamasu is just a rehash of Ginyu because they both stole Goku's body... but you do realize that, following this "logic", Buu is a rehash of Cell because they both steal powers through absorption, right?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Battle of Gods was a nice slice of nostalgia but DB Super definitely falls into the parody territory.

Out of everything we got from Toei since the end of the original manga (GT, Super, Daima), the Battle of Gods movie is the only product that felt like a legitimate continuation of the series. Despite only being less than two hours long, it provided me with everything I always wanted in a Dragon Ball/Buu arc sequel. Character development for the main characters, an interesting villain who goes through an arc of his own, great fights, diverse environments, etc..., it's all there. Dragon Ball will undoubtedly continue despite Toriyama's tragic passing, so hopefully Battle of Gods is what's used as a blueprint on how to move forward, rather than the (to put it nicely) mixed bags that were GT, Super, and Daima.

[super michael]

At the moment in DBS Super Hero they have redeemed Goten and Trunks, by being allowed to fight.
If DBS does return and they redeem Goku, then that will be good.

If Goku gains back his maturity and intelligence from DBZ in DBS return, then I will be happy. Then that will change how I view DBS as a whole.

Boo at the moment just sleeps too much. That really needs to change, all he used to need was a few seconds to sleep in DBZ.

[Jord]

Battle of Gods was a nice slice of nostalgia but DB Super definitely falls into the parody territory.

Out of everything we got from Toei since the end of the original manga (GT, Super, Daima), the Battle of Gods movie is the only product that felt like a legitimate continuation of the series. Despite only being less than two hours long, it provided me with everything I always wanted in a Dragon Ball/Buu arc sequel. Character development for the main characters, an interesting villain who goes through an arc of his own, great fights, diverse environments, etc..., it's all there. Dragon Ball will undoubtedly continue despite Toriyama's tragic passing, so hopefully Battle of Gods is what's used as a blueprint on how to move forward, rather than the (to put it nicely) mixed bags that were GT, Super, and Daima.

I think BoG hit the right spot between slice of life, stakes and growth, which was pretty remarkable for a movie, coming after so many episodes. Animation was pretty good as well. It's interesting how we got a series adaptation in the series itself and how much worse it was.

It's interesting to speculate what's next for the anime portion of DB. I don't think we'll get a Daima sequel. Super was cancelled so I don't think the rest of the manga will be adapted. With or without Toriyama it's tricky to think what we'll get.
Perhaps a OG DB reboot would be the most logical next step. Actually, it would have been a great idea instead of Daima. Seeing original DB with that Daima animation would be great.

[SupremeKai25]

Super was cancelled

Super wasn't cancelled.

[super michael]

Super was cancelled

Super wasn't cancelled.

We know Dragon Ball Super manga will get a One Shot, which is good news. After that let see if or when it will continue.

DBS manga I enjoyed reading it, I like how the characters are written in it. Toyotaro is a good manga writer.

[SupremeKai25]

Super was cancelled

Super wasn't cancelled.

We know Dragon Ball Super manga will get a One Shot, which is good news. After that let see if or when it will continue.

DBS manga I enjoyed reading it, I like how the characters are written in it. Toyotaro is a good manga writer.

Okay? Doesn't change the fact that it wasn't CANCELLED. That would imply that Super was a failure, which is obviously absurd and ridiculous.

Schrödinger's Super. Super is simultaneously a financial failure, and a nostalgia cash-grab/milked cow.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Super was cancelled

Super wasn't cancelled.

Super's anime will definitely be back, it's just a matter of when, rather than if. There's two movies in Broly and Superhero they can adapt, there are two original arcs in the manga, with at least a 3rd one on the way to wrap things up, and Toriyama was working on a 3rd movie before his passing. They could easily get 100 episodes out of all this, maybe even a bit more. With that said, I wouldn't expect anything for another 2-3 years though.

[super michael]

Super wasn't cancelled.

We know Dragon Ball Super manga will get a One Shot, which is good news. After that let see if or when it will continue.

DBS manga I enjoyed reading it, I like how the characters are written in it. Toyotaro is a good manga writer.

Okay? Doesn't change the fact that it wasn't CANCELLED. That would imply that Super was a failure, which is obviously absurd and ridiculous.

Schrödinger's Super. Super is simultaneously a financial failure, and a nostalgia cash-grab/milked cow.

I don't believe Dragon Ball Super got cancelled, I won't believe it until there is some sort of official announcement.

[WittyUsername]

Super was cancelled

Super wasn't cancelled.

Super's anime will definitely be back, it's just a matter of when, rather than if. There's two movies in Broly and Superhero they can adapt, there are two original arcs in the manga, with at least a 3rd one on the way to wrap things up, and Toriyama was working on a 3rd movie before his passing. They could easily get 100 episodes out of all this, maybe even a bit more. With that said, I wouldn't expect anything for another 2-3 years though.

Will it? It’s been seven years, and there are supposedly some rights issues that would make it difficult to adapt the manga exclusive material.

[JulieYBM]

Those arcs from the 2015 manga will eventually be adapted into animation. It might not be in the next few years, but this franchise has literally gone on for 40 years, shit will eventually happen.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Yeah, Super returning might not happen any time soon but with Dragon Ball you can just never say never.

Pre-2015 if you'd asked about a new TV series (excluding rehashes like Kai) most people would have said that would never happen, and Toriyama rejecting the idea in 2009 would have validated any fans feeling that way.

The existence of currently manga exclusive arcs like Moro and Granolah means less pre-production, because the stories are there and can be easily adapted.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Will it? It’s been seven years, and there are supposedly some rights issues that would make it difficult to adapt the manga exclusive material.

There's money to be made, and both arcs had involvement from Toriyama which they can use for marketing. You do bring up a good point regarding the rights issue, which is why I don't think it'll be anytime soon. I do expect something before 2030 though...maybe.

[dbs fanboy]

Is it the franchise that changed, or have you simply grown up? Perhaps it's you that changed after... what? 30 years?

"Modern Dragon Ball is formulaic"... of course. I'm sure the original would be called "formulaic" too if it came out in 2025. I can already imagine all the complaining about Toriyama pulling the same "rage power-up" shtick with both Goku and Gohan, and using the Dragon Balls at the end of every arc to revive everyone.

Both, we've grown up and the franchise has changed the original was not too formulaic until the final arcs, Toriyama took a lot of risks and changes up a lot of things as he moves alone while modern Dragon Ball is stuck in midquel hell.

[dbs fanboy]

3 movies and a 130 episode series all lead to absolutely nothing

They lead to Gohan deciding (for what, the 4th time in a row?) that he really should be training.
But just like the other 3 times it happened, it won't go anywhere and he'll be back to worrying about his family and neglecting training again.

Honestly, Gohan's struggle between being an ordinary nerd dad and a fighter should've been a compelling character arc.
It's not like the likes of Spider-Man or Sailor Moon haven't done it before, it's just that Dragon Ball is woefully scared of doing it.

Ngl idk the modern gripes y'all have with modern Gohan, so far I feel his character is pretty consistent and over the course of modern Dragon Ball he goes through an arc.

He gets humbled in RoF and starts training with Piccolo afterwards to the point he stops looking like a paper thin weakling, he starts training with him, but he doesn't go over the top with it as we see he will continue to prioritize his studies over joining a tournament, because he's a responsible adult.

Afterwards in filler Gohan was usually shown as pretty capable, (not as capable as he could be, but still strong)

In the the Pre ToP arc he performed pretty well considering he was not at 100%, RoF Gohan would have been stomped by Lavender considering how out of shape he was then.

After that he changed his chip, and even gets called out on past flaws from the Buu arc, gets his full power back and performs decently during ToP, even hinting that he would get his own new form.

And then in Super Hero he does exactly that. Sure the movie doesn't take it seriously as Piccolo manipulates him to trigger it, but the thing is, Gohan was not even that out of shape. Piccolo attempted to catch him off guard at the beginning of the movie and he blocked, and after defeating Cell Max it is revealed that Gohan had actually kept up with his training in secret in order to learn the Makankosappo.

He wasn't slacking off on training he was just ultra focused on his research, because he actually has a job and cares about more stuff than living and breathing martial arts.

When you look at Gohan's whole trajectory in the Super era, you end up with a pretty balanced character who's perfectly strong enough to do shit, but still lives his life.

Too bad he took a page out of Goku's book and is a bit neglectful too with Pan when he's focused on his stuff.

But yeah, rant over, it just irks me how it looks as if people don't actually notice this shit, since it's one of the few things Super actually did good.

[Majin Buu]

And then in Super Hero he does exactly that. Sure the movie doesn't take it seriously as Piccolo manipulates him to trigger it, but the thing is, Gohan was not even that out of shape. Piccolo attempted to catch him off guard at the beginning of the movie and he blocked, and after defeating Cell Max it is revealed that Gohan had actually kept up with his training in secret in order to learn the Makankosappo.

He wasn't slacking off on training he was just ultra focused on his research, because he actually has a job and cares about more stuff than living and breathing martial arts.

Agreed.

For as much as people complain about its reuse, it's easy to forget that the whole "Gohan gets his groove back" plot thread is actually subverted in Super Hero- The twist being that he didn't actually lose his groove this time.

[Koitsukai]

But yeah, rant over, it just irks me how it looks as if people don't actually notice this shit, since it's one of the few things Super actually did good.

I agree with the post and with this line in particular. Recently, probably in one of those never-ending Daima threads, I read a long critique about Gohan in SH that I couldn't reply to at the time and then lost track of it, and boy was that off the mark. All your points debunk that post.

It's boring to see people overlooking what is right in front of them because of some preconception.

[AliTheZombie13]

I really disagree with that take, I'm sorry.

If I recall, there are scenes in Super's U6 arc where he's shown training with Piccolo, and then Goku and Vegeta invite him to the tournament, and he's like... "Eh... I don't know... There's a presentation this weekend... Something on Sunday... Gotta take care of Pan Monday... Maybe next time?"

Fast-forward to the Tournament of Power, he's doing the exact same thing.

Fast-forward to Super Hero, he's doing the exact same thing.

Back-forward to the Boo arc, he was doing the exact same thing.

"Gohan is slacking on his training!" is used so damn often as a plot device that I just don't care anymore.

You might argue, "But he's improving, he's getting stronger, he's transforming!"
I'm sorry, but we're not talking about power numbers or transformations here, we're talking about his character and the story surrounding him. Seeing his character improve and learn things, only to unlearn them and having to learn them all over again just for the sake of getting his fictional power number higher just doesn't appeal to me, that's frustrating.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I had no issue with this plot point in the Buu arc due to it being the first time it happened, but they didn't need to repeat it 3 other times after.

[dbs fanboy]

I really disagree with that take, I'm sorry.

If I recall, there are scenes in Super's U6 arc where he's shown training with Piccolo, and then Goku and Vegeta invite him to the tournament, and he's like... "Eh... I don't know... There's a presentation this weekend... Something on Sunday... Gotta take care of Pan Monday... Maybe next time?"

Fast-forward to the Tournament of Power, he's doing the exact same thing.

Fast-forward to Super Hero, he's doing the exact same thing.

Back-forward to the Boo arc, he was doing the exact same thing.

"Gohan is slacking on his training!" is used so damn often as a plot device that I just don't care anymore.

You might argue, "But he's improving, he's getting stronger, he's transforming!"
I'm sorry, but we're not talking about power numbers or transformations here, we're talking about his character and the story surrounding him. Seeing his character improve and learn things, only to unlearn them and having to learn them all over again just for the sake of getting his fictional power number higher just doesn't appeal to me, that's frustrating.

Well I'm sorry but I believe that you are deliberately ignoring my points in my post and Gohan's actual development.

The subversion of Dragon Ball Super Hero is the fact that while Piccolo tries to paint it as if Gohan was slacking off, the end of the movie reveals that he, in fact, didn't. He dominates most of his fights and it's revealed he learnt the Makankosappo in secret.

In Super's ToP, a Gohan that had already been training in previous arcs gets called out on his past behaviour when being the strongest, he changes his chip and proves himself to be a valuable asset in the arc.

If we include Super's manga Gohan is in an even better light! As he simply just doesn't stop training ever and is only stomped when actually completely outclassed.

His understanding of himself and his own power, even helps another OP character (Broly) to do the same and improve, that's decent writing.


Gohan prioritizing his life and studies over fighting when Earth is not in danger is not him regressing, it's him just living his life.

It makes sense if he doesn't join the U6 tournament
when the arc had no real stakes for Earth.

In modern Dragon Ball Gohan has proved time and time again that he's actually competent.

A far cry from the GT era where he literally and actually did absolutely, nothing.

You can dislike Super all you want but you have to be blind if you don't see the actual obvious attempts made to keep him relevant.

Now if your issue is that you want him as the Main character or something like that, then we'd be having a completely different conversation.