Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[JulieYBM]

I mean, this is also the same series where a concentrated hate campaign from bigots and grifters controlled the online narrative of the series' supposed quality from start to finish. Far be it for me to defend a Star Wars project—speaking as someone who grew up on the franchise and doesn't really care for it—but the situation and the factors at play are a lot different compared to smaller shit like Dragon Ball.

The Star Wars franchise has legitimately bad installations though. For example, The Last Jedi - completely divorced from whatever the asshole grifter morons were saying about it - is a bad movie. Terrible editing, terrible handling of characters, terrible pacing.

So too with DB.

The quality doesn't really matter in this case (again, I think all of those nine films kinda just suck), because if the film's cast hadn't been the target of hate campaigns and those plot developments handed to cishet men then the film wouldn't have the legacy that it has—or the complete reworking of Rise of Skywalker to kowtow to sad grifters.

Dragon Ball has suffered from terrible editing, terrible handling of characters and more, too. It's just not as ripe a target for insane right-wing creeps because it lacks any sort of proper diversity.

[DestructoDisc]

I don't post here much or on other DB forums but I do visit it every once in a while and imo it is the best one there is. Little to no trolling, obsessing over power scalling, and the users for the most part are respectable, and make smart arguments even when I disagree with their personal opinions I can at least understand why they feel the way they do. I don't really care about negativity it's not like even the most negative users hate the entire franchise or something, we all love it that's why we made accounts and joined the forum in the first place.

To stay on topic though, this episode was..fine? That's how I feel about Daima in general honestly. Really good animation and some funny jokes here and there, but the writing is so bad it's hard for me to care about anything that's going on, and I hate the designs so fucking much, this new SSJ4 form just looks hideous, almost as bad as Beast Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

The mix of adventure, humor, character moments, and high-stakes action was pitch-perfect for me. Glorio’s betrayal wouldn’t have been nearly as impactful without all the little interactions and developments along the way. And yeah, the action here? Felt more Dragon Ball than anything in the Super and GT tv series, perhaps on par with Broly’s film. This show just gets it. If it keeps this up, Daima might just end up being my favorite Dragon Ball sequel too.

[AliTheZombie13]

On people not liking the show:

Some are just succinctly giving their honest criticisms while others are so hyperbolic with their dislike that it feels performative.

It's the difference between simply being critical vs. being performatively negative about it.

The former provides useful insight while the latter is just obnoxious, contributes to making the discourse actively unpleasant, and undercuts any actual criticism being presented.

To name names for the sake of clarity: Folks like Julie, Zephyr, and Gaffer are doing the former, folks like AliTheZombie are doing the latter.

Thanks, on the other side of the coin, I also feel like the people praising this show so blindly, and accusing whoever doesn't like it of trolling, ragebaiting, or not being enlightened enough to understand its supposed hidden nuances, are also being performative and insincere about their love for it.

[Mr Baggins]

I've seen absolutely nobody praising this show doing it blindly or being performative. I am proud to say that whenever I give my reasons for why I enjoy an episode or chapter of any given Dragon Ball product, I elaborate at length and in great detail. I've also been sure to criticize Daima where I felt it was appropriate.

Can't say the same for some of the naysayers here, especially that one guy above me, as was rightly pointed out by Buu.

Here's another example:

Go back to r/DragonBallDaima if you want an echo chamber hugbox. You can all enjoy the latest content slop there

Like, what the fuck even is this reply? My guy, you're being no better than the user you're replying to with comments like "echo chamber hugbox" and "content slop". Nobody's asking you to like the show, but wholesale attacking an entire community of people that do ain't a good look. Let's engage in earnest, please.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm still not sure what this episode did that is so divisive in this fandom.

Did an entire timeline get erased again?

What exactly is so divisive about this episode? It cannot possibly be SSJ4, right? Because it's got better build-up and narrative than SSJ3, and yet I never see SSJ3 get any kind of criticism (hmm, I wonder why).

SSJ4 is a power-up that Neva gave Goku. We know that elder Namekians have this ability to empower talented fighters. Neva is very ancient, and very powerful. SSJ4 seems to tap into Goku's DNA/genes as a monkey, and it's also got red colors because it's demonic in nature (due to deriving from Neva).

I mean, it all makes sense, yes? To me it makes more sense than "oh Goku trained for 7 years and pulled a new form out of his ass, enjoy."

I'm still scratching my head at what exactly Daima did in this episode that warrants such a negative reaction.

[Eminence]

Yk, i appreciate toriyama wanting to give the fans fanservice with the episode, but gosh if there was buildup, forshadowing or maybe an interesting story surrounding this form it could have been really something, or heck for me i did not need a new form at all. I don't see how this is supposed to coincide with DBS which is supposedly canon unless this is completely temporary and doesnt get used again, but then what is the point. Literally just momentary fanservice for people to be happy and rave about how "Canon" ssj4 is now.

Honestly i find this form very hollow and disappointing. The fight surrounding it was cool though i guess and this form will be in all the games soon, hahahaa.

[Tian]

Because it's got better build-up and narrative than SSJ3, and yet I never see SSJ3 get any kind of criticism (hmm, I wonder why).

I personally dislike how SSJ3 was introduced. It was like a poor explanation for Goku's seven years training in the other world.

I think it would've been more realistic for him to go Full Power SSJ2 rather than SSJ3 in front of Buu and saved SSJ3 for later.

Not to mention that SSJ3 didn't take too long to lost its charm since Gotenks also managed to get that form easily and in the same arc.

[Mr Baggins]

I'm still not sure what this episode did that is so divisive in this fandom.

That's fine. Episodes (and in this case, entire shows) are allowed to be divisive. Polarizing art can sometimes bring out the worst in its audience, but isn't in itself a bad thing.

For my part, I've mostly been taking a backseat in this thread because I want to avoid repeating some of what I've already posted and would rather let other contributors here have their say. But at 17 forum pages for this particular thread, there can be no denying there's a lot to talk about.

(I have to wonder though if anyone read my post on Super Saiyan 3 earlier ITT, since it's being brought up again. Things can, in fact, contribute to a story and arguably service that story more effectively without prior foreshadowing.)

[SupremeKai25]

I'm still not sure what this episode did that is so divisive in this fandom.

That's fine. Episodes (and in this case, entire shows) are allowed to be divisive. Polarizing art can sometimes bring out the worst in its audience, but isn't in itself a bad thing.

I was just talking about this episode, and from what I've seen so far, most of this criticism is just nit-picking.

People are complaining that SSJ4 "had no foreshadowing"... I mean, seriously?

I will never understand why the modern audience is obsessed with FORESHADOWING!!! So what if SSJ4 came out of nowhere, so what? It's so weird how a story is no longer allowed to surprise the audience with things happening out of the blue.

People ITT forgot that Toriyama was always notorious for coming up with new stuff out of the blue. The Cell saga was a mess of new villains coming out of nowhere and replacing the old ones and the final villain just learning new techniques on the spot.

You don't need foreshadowing to enjoy a story, nor is it a written rule that everything must be foreshadowed.

[nato25]

I'm still not sure what this episode did that is so divisive in this fandom.

That's fine. Episodes (and in this case, entire shows) are allowed to be divisive. Polarizing art can sometimes bring out the worst in its audience, but isn't in itself a bad thing.

I was just talking about this episode, and from what I've seen so far, most of this criticism is just nit-picking.

People are complaining that SSJ4 "had no foreshadowing"... I mean, seriously?

I will never understand why the modern audience is obsessed with FORESHADOWING!!! So what if SSJ4 came out of nowhere, so what? It's so weird how a story is no longer allowed to surprise the audience with things happening out of the blue.

People ITT forgot that Toriyama was always notorious for coming up with new stuff out of the blue. The Cell saga was a mess of new villains coming out of nowhere and replacing the old ones and the final villain just learning new techniques on the spot.

You don't need foreshadowing to enjoy a story, nor is it a written rule that everything must be foreshadowed.

At the very least it's causing conversation which is a good thing.

You are right, not everything needs ot be foreshadowed. However, when something also has completely no precedent or setup, I think that is when people get upset/disappointed. SSJ4 here is another Spirit Sword Trunks moment, and to me that's one of the most egregious mistakes the franchise has ever made. It's believable Goku obtained SSJ3 while training for 7 years in the afterlife. It's not believable or rewarding that Trunks accidentally triggered a random technique and gathered enough energy to kill Zamasu given there was like what, 1% or less of life remaining on the planet.

You can talk smack about the Cell Saga, but Cell was created by the same character the Androids were created by and then needed them to power up. At least that's some connection. You could argue Neva makes crazy things happen sure, but because that is so broad and limitless, I don't think it's as satisfying.

Funny enough we have a great comparison of a different transformation that I've seen absolutely no one complain about. SSJ3 Duu. He's shown to be powered up after eating chocolate, he's shown to learn new techniques quickly (when he was figuring out Ki) and he's shown to be a goofball. So when he imitates SSJ3, it just works because while I don't think you could say that was foreshadowed, you believe something like that would happen and it was executed well.

I loved seeing SSJ4 come about and the action was great, but once the dust settled I started to question it and my opinion on it changes a little. Even something small like Neva saying 'why don't I help you bring out your primal instincts' or anything really would have helped somewhat.

[capsulecorp]

I missed a week and watched 17 & 18 back to back and had a great time. Incredible animation, genuine laughs, a couple moments with that inimitable Dragon Ball spark that was missing from DBS so often. That said, "big guy" fights are sort of boring, and it feels like we just did this with Super Hero, but the execution was really strong.

Kid SSJ4 is an interesting way to have your cake and eat it too. It's a lot less repellent than the original design, and I'm glad we're getting it out of the way now and not during the actual climax. Ultimately, like a lot of people expected, Daima did end up being Toriyama's attempt at fixing GT, similar to Broly. I don't think it will be as successful as the Broly film but, aside from an episode or two, I'm still having fun.

I agree with the commenter that said we should try to enjoy Daima with our heart more than our mind. It's a great antidote so much of what this "fandom" struggles with (miserable, self-defeating power scaling calculus for example, or the desperate need to find and correct "plot holes"), although I do often find there's a lot to enjoy with my mind when revisiting this stuff. I'm not sure that will be the case with Daima, but there's still a lot to come. Still, this has been a great way to say goodbye.

[Cybersai]

SSJ3 was obtained when Goku was dead for 7 years constantly training. Why would people not think Goku would obtain something new being dead for almost a decade?

And SSJ3 came with drawbacks, since Goku could not maintain the form without losing energy and Vegeta also yelled at him for not revealing it to him during the Majin Vegeta fight. Basically Super Saiyan 3 was integrated into the show very well at the time, it felt the peak of Super Saiyan power and there was no intention for any power ups above it back then.

[Izanagi]

I'm still not sure what this episode did that is so divisive in this fandom.

That's fine. Episodes (and in this case, entire shows) are allowed to be divisive. Polarizing art can sometimes bring out the worst in its audience, but isn't in itself a bad thing.

I was just talking about this episode, and from what I've seen so far, most of this criticism is just nit-picking.

People are complaining that SSJ4 "had no foreshadowing"... I mean, seriously?

I will never understand why the modern audience is obsessed with FORESHADOWING!!! So what if SSJ4 came out of nowhere, so what? It's so weird how a story is no longer allowed to surprise the audience with things happening out of the blue.

People ITT forgot that Toriyama was always notorious for coming up with new stuff out of the blue. The Cell saga was a mess of new villains coming out of nowhere and replacing the old ones and the final villain just learning new techniques on the spot.

You don't need foreshadowing to enjoy a story, nor is it a written rule that everything must be foreshadowed.

This is an excuse for lazy storytelling.

Foreshadowing isn’t about "ruining surprises", it’s about making those surprises feel earned and satisfying.

Good storytelling sets up future events in a way that makes them feel natural. Bad storytelling just drops new concepts out of nowhere with no buildup.

Surprises without foreshadowing = random nonsense.

Imagine if Gohan suddenly pulled out Ultra Instinct with no explanation.

Imagine if Tenshinhan suddenly revealed he was actually a Saiyan all along.

Would these be "cool surprises," or would they be stupid because they make no sense?

Just because Toriyama has always done something doesn’t mean it’s good storytelling. Yes, he improvised a lot, but Z still had some level of narrative flow and buildup (with the exception of SSJ3, that I agree).

Super Saiyan was set up. Briefly mentioned by Nappa in the Saiyan arc then spent a whole arc afterwards teasing the idea of the SSJ until Freeza kills Kuririn, pushing Goku over the edge.

SSJ2 was also set up. Goku and Vegeta spent the entire Android arc obsessively chasing a level beyond Super Saiyan, experimenting with Grade 1 and 2 forms which were just bulky, flawed prototypes. Gohan also had an emotional arc that built up his power and his potential has always been been teased.

Even Majin Vegeta was foreshadowed. His frustration with going "soft" and being eclipsed by Goku and Gohan was built up throughout Z.

Now compare that to modern DB:

SSG? "Let's all hold hands around a fetus, sing kumbaya and magically unlock a power far surpassing the almighty SS3 for no apparent reason." (It's still my favorite form that came out of modern DB, but yeah.)

SSB? No buildup, just "We combined SSJ with God Ki, deal with it."

SSBE? Vegeta just unlocked it out of sheer butthurt over Goku getting UI.

Beast? Pulled out of thin air with zero training or progression. Gohan can slack off for months and still end being the strongest if he gets a little more angry.

So far, the only forms that had proper buildup that comes into my mind are UI and UE.

I agree with you that the Android arc had some behind-the-scenes rewrites, but that was more a product of executive meddling than of Toriyama's original intent.

Anyway, if you find Daima entertaining, cool! You prefer modern DB over classic DB? That’s perfectly fine too! Like what you like. Just because I don’t enjoy it doesn’t mean others shouldn’t. Everyone has different tastes, and at the end of the day, it’s all about what makes you happy.

[SupremeKai25]

SSB? No buildup, just "We combined SSJ with God Ki, deal with it."

SSJ3: "I trained 7 years off-screen and got this new form, off-screen, deal with it."

You lose me here.

Either way, SSJ4 doesn't need foreshadowing in the context of Daima. We should already expect surprises and things out of the blue from a show centred around magicians and weird demon magic. Magic is unpredictable and mysterious.

[Noah]

SSB? No buildup, just "We combined SSJ with God Ki, deal with it."

SSJ3: "I trained 7 years off-screen and got this new form, off-screen, deal with it."

You lose me here.

No. He didn't.

Just because Toriyama has always done something doesn’t mean it’s good storytelling. Yes, he improvised a lot, but Z still had some level of narrative flow and buildup (with the exception of SSJ3, that I agree).

You just didn't care to read his whole post.

[SupremeKai25]

SSB? No buildup, just "We combined SSJ with God Ki, deal with it."

SSJ3: "I trained 7 years off-screen and got this new form, off-screen, deal with it."

You lose me here.

No. He didn't.

Just because Toriyama has always done something doesn’t mean it’s good storytelling. Yes, he improvised a lot, but Z still had some level of narrative flow and buildup (with the exception of SSJ3, that I agree).

You just didn't care to read his whole post.

I operate from a simple standpoint. If the original series did it, then the modern series can also do it.

SSJ4 has little build-up, I'll agree, but since many things in the old series also lacked proper build-up, as Toriyama by self-admission was not much of a long-term planner and even forgot certain characters, I already knew before-hand that there would be twists and surprises out of the blue. Doubly so in a show about magicians and spells.

But enough talk about that old and boring DBZ. We should talk about how a surprise form actually fits Daima very well because, as I said, magic by nature is unpredictable and weird. And honestly, not enough people ITT are mentioning that this is a series about MAGIC. Magic doesn't follow rules, magic by its very nature is wild.

Not sure why people weren't expecting some kind of surprise in a show all about magic.

People in these discussion threads were expecting a twist villain or a twist betrayal... why not a twist form? And yet you know that Dragon Ball (as you acknowledged) has a history with twist forms...

[ZombieVito]

Beast? Pulled out of thin air with zero training or progression. Gohan can slack off for months and still end being the strongest if he gets a little more angry.

I will never understand this complaint people have with Gohan.

Did you not see him at age four surpass his father (with over a decade of training) just because he got scared?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Beast? Pulled out of thin air with zero training or progression. Gohan can slack off for months and still end being the strongest if he gets a little more angry.

Gohan is by far the worst handled character in the modern era. He keeps going through the same character arc and learns nothing each time. As for Beast, it's tied with Trunks' Rage form as one of the worst pieces of writing to come out of this franchise. If there's anything to take away from modern DB, it's that Toriyama was right to end the story when he did back in 1995. You may be able to squeeze a good story out of it here and there (Battle of Gods), but there's simply not enough there for a full fledged on-going series, as most of what we've ended up with is ground that was covered in the past.

I operate from a simple standpoint. If the original series did it, then the modern series can also do it.

The majority of flaws found in modern DB weren't a thing in classic DB, but even if they were, that doesn't justify repeating the same mistakes.

[SupremeKai25]

The majority of flaws found in modern DB weren't a thing in classic DB, but even if they were, that doesn't justify repeating the same mistakes.

I don't want to keep talking about boring old DBZ in a thread about Daima. In short, every issue you could find in modern Dragon Ball was already found in the old series, and if that old series came out today, the narrative around the Cell and Buu sagas would be singing to a much different tune.

You can make another thread or ping me in a PM and I'll explain that. For now I'd rather talk about Daima instead of boring old DBZ.