What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[fadeddreams5]

DBZ created something of a gym culture in the US, inspiring many thanks to its theme of overcoming adversity by working/training hard. That is something severely missing in modern DB. In fact, I would say, modern DB straight up goes against this theme at times.

Regardless of how silly they were at times, In DB/DBZ, we saw the characters' intense training in detail, be it Goku and Krillin doing arduous labor with weighted turtle shells on their backs, Goku trying to catch a monkey in a planet with 10x gravity, training under 100x gravity in that spaceship, or the rigorous sparring in the ROSAT that led to Gohan going SSJ or Trunks describing the literal hell he experienced in a flashback. And as you can see, they were progressive in intensity because Goku had multiple masters that outranked the previous in his journey, or in the case of the ROSAT, he couldn't handle it when he was younger--he progressed to be able to even survive in there.

In Daima, there is no training at all. The series makes no sense with how it handles Goku's abilities either. Is he weaker as a kid or not? Can he fly well or not? One second, he's surprised he can go SSJ, and the next, he's going SSJ2 and SSJ3 at will. Why is his use of IT so inconsistent? I digress, my point is, you could have replaced so much filler from this series with training scenes of him adapting to the demon world and regaining his abilities, or learning new ones to compensate for his lost ones. He didn't need to be a kid to accomplish this either.

In Super, any character can train off-screen, and suddenly become as strong as a God. It doesn't matter what method they use. It doesn't matter if they trained with a deity or not. They can train inside a bathroom stall jerking their chicken, and suddenly give Goku fits, despite Goku now possessing powers several times stronger than a form (SSJ3) that could be felt throughout the universe. Now, to overcome odds, it's more about cringe rituals, fusions, and asspull transformations. And sure, you can argue, "but zenkai!" Yeah, but how was a zenkai achieved? By nearly dying, which Goku almost did just by training in 100x gravity.

To end this rant, people that say Gohan always got angry and became stronger are full of shit. Did he gain temporary boosts that deterred his enemies? Yes. Did he keep these abilities and surpass Goku? No. In the Cell arc, he surpassed Goku BEFORE going SSJ2 by TRAINING just as hard as him. He was more talented, but it took sparring with a SSJ in a void hell to reach that power. Then, he gained full control of the hidden potential we always knew existed to ascend further. He never, ever had a Gohan Beast level asspull, besides Ultimate Gohan, which at least had some explanation, and in his defense, did involve indirect training with the Z-Sword.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

DBZ created something of a gym culture in the US, inspiring many thanks to its theme of overcoming adversity by working/training hard. That is something severely missing in modern DB. In fact, I would say, modern DB straight up goes against this theme at times.

Modern DB pretty much removed anything related to hard work being the key to success, or the concept of finding ways to overcome hardship. Everything is just handed to the cast, be it their power ups or even victories against their enemies. Who needs to think of a multipart plan to defeat a villain like Kid Buu when you can just press a button and have Zeno do it ? Who needs to be sacrificed as a price for overconfidence against the likes of Cell when Whis can just rewind time for you ? As for the training, those we by far some of my favorite parts of the original run. Both the manga and the additions by the anime provided both entertaining and inspirational material to enjoy.

Modern DB is a great example of the kind of product you end up with when the creator is surrounded by yes-men. The fanboys you see online defending everything that's come out of it are the exact people Toriyama was stuck working with. Everything he put in front of them was a guaranteed "Amazing Sensi, we are not worthy". I don't blame Toriyama entirely for the state of this revival, for the simple fact that he was stuck with people basically lying to him about the quality of his work. This wasn't something he dealt with back in the day, as both his editors and producers were not afraid to reject certain ideas, ask him to change others, or outright change them themselves if need be.

[Yuji]

I think Dragon Ball's themes of working hard weren't necessarily by Toriyama's own design but by proxy of Dragon Ball being serialized in WSJ. A lot of other series, especially of the period, share the same themes. I believe it is literally one of Shueisha's core beliefs that they must instruct kids to work hard.

In turn, modern Dragon Ball is more in the hands of Toei rather than Shueisha, who presumably does not care that much about enforcing those themes and let Toriyama be more lax and have more free reign with the kind of stories he wanted to write.

You see these themes return in the Granolah and Moro arcs which feature heavily themes about hard work vs stolen/cheap power-ups and have Goku and Vegeta defeat their villains without any cop-outs. Toyotaro, as someone who grew up with Dragon Ball, likely felt more comfortable replicating those themes in his original arcs.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I think Dragon Ball's themes of working hard weren't necessarily by Toriyama's own design but by proxy of Dragon Ball being serialized in WSJ. A lot of other series, especially of the period, share the same themes. I believe it is literally one of Shueisha's core beliefs that they must instruct kids to work hard.

If this is indeed the case than it would be another example of the people around Toriyama bringing out the best of him as a writer. Fans of all kinds of written media believe for some reason that if something isn't the 100% work of the author, then it looses its impact and legitimacy. What they fail to understand is that some authors work better as part of a team, while others work better alone.

[SupremeKai25]

Modern DB is a great example of the kind of product you end up with when the creator is surrounded by yes-men. The fanboys you see online defending everything that's come out of it are the exact people Toriyama was stuck working with. Everything he put in front of them was a guaranteed "Amazing Sensi, we are not worthy". I don't blame Toriyama entirely for the state of this revival, for the simple fact that he was stuck with people basically lying to him about the quality of his work. This wasn't something he dealt with back in the day, as both his editors and producers were not afraid to reject certain ideas, ask him to change others, or outright change them themselves if need be.

Or... wait for it... those enigmatic "yes-men" you speak of approved of Toriyama's work and celebrate it because... wait for it...

They like it?!

Could it be that there's people out there in the world who... like Toriyama's modern work?!

No, impossible. It must be a secret conspiracy to deceive Toriyama with lies. I mean there's no way someone could genuine like Modern DB or even, gasp, prefer it to the old childhood show, right? They're just liars, it must be just empty lies.

[super michael]

Modern DB is a great example of the kind of product you end up with when the creator is surrounded by yes-men. The fanboys you see online defending everything that's come out of it are the exact people Toriyama was stuck working with. Everything he put in front of them was a guaranteed "Amazing Sensi, we are not worthy". I don't blame Toriyama entirely for the state of this revival, for the simple fact that he was stuck with people basically lying to him about the quality of his work. This wasn't something he dealt with back in the day, as both his editors and producers were not afraid to reject certain ideas, ask him to change others, or outright change them themselves if need be.

Or... wait for it... those enigmatic "yes-men" you speak of approved of Toriyama's work and celebrate it because... wait for it...

They like it?!

Could it be that there's people out there in the world who... like Toriyama's modern work?!

No, impossible. It must be a secret conspiracy to deceive Toriyama with lies. I mean there's no way someone could genuine like Modern DB or even, gasp, prefer it to the old childhood show, right? They're just liars, it must be just empty lies.

There nothing entertaining with the writers regressing their character and losing character growth and maturity for no reason in DBS. There is nothing funny with the writers forbidding fighters in DBS. Character always falling asleep for many months can get boring, that isn't something a skillful writer would do.

In DBS just by doing pathetic and simple training, they gain huge power that can allow them to fight God level character, which doesn't make sense. No hard training, magic, artifact, ritual, etc, just plain simple training. Even just doing ordinary gym training is enough to get to God level.

DBS didn't care about quality writing at all, sometimes if felt like the writers of DBS never watched DB/DBZ or read Toriyama manga at all.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

It must be a secret conspiracy to deceive Toriyama with lies.

Not at all; they're simply incapable of criticizing his work as a result of growing up with the franchise. That's why it's not a good idea to have fans work on an official product; you need actual professionals who know when to go along with something and when to reject it.

[SupremeKai25]

Modern DB is a great example of the kind of product you end up with when the creator is surrounded by yes-men. The fanboys you see online defending everything that's come out of it are the exact people Toriyama was stuck working with. Everything he put in front of them was a guaranteed "Amazing Sensi, we are not worthy". I don't blame Toriyama entirely for the state of this revival, for the simple fact that he was stuck with people basically lying to him about the quality of his work. This wasn't something he dealt with back in the day, as both his editors and producers were not afraid to reject certain ideas, ask him to change others, or outright change them themselves if need be.

Or... wait for it... those enigmatic "yes-men" you speak of approved of Toriyama's work and celebrate it because... wait for it...

They like it?!

Could it be that there's people out there in the world who... like Toriyama's modern work?!

No, impossible. It must be a secret conspiracy to deceive Toriyama with lies. I mean there's no way someone could genuine like Modern DB or even, gasp, prefer it to the old childhood show, right? They're just liars, it must be just empty lies.

There nothing entertaining with the writers regressing their character and losing character growth and maturity for no reason in DBS. There is nothing funny with the writers forbidding fighters in DBS. Character always falling asleep for many months can get boring, that isn't something a skillful writer would do.

In DBS just by doing pathetic and simple training, they gain huge power that can allow them to fight God level character, which doesn't make sense. No hard training, magic, artifact, ritual, etc, just plain simple training. Even just doing ordinary gym training is enough to get to God level.

Speak for yourself. I find all those things you mentioned delightful to watch.

Maybe just accept the fact that some people are entertained by things that you hate, instead of thinking that it's just some lying yes-men.

DBS didn't care about quality writing at all, sometimes if felt like the writers of DBS never watched DB/DBZ or read Toriyama manga at all.

So Toriyama didn't read Toriyama's manga?

[super michael]

Speak for yourself. I find all those things you mentioned delightful to watch.

Maybe just accept the fact that some people are entertained by things that you hate, instead of thinking that it's just some lying yes-men.

- Goku in the episode of Beerus in a costume didn't act like Goku at all.
- Goku in DBS Super Hero didn't act like Goku at all.
All they cared about was making their characters dumb, they didn't care if it contradicts DB/DBZ. Making their character dumb doesn't make it good writing.
In Dragon Ball the characters matured, grew up both physically and mentally. They sharpened their skills and gained new knowledge. They didn't forget what they knew.

Goten and Trunks were not allowed to train, fight and help which was annoying. Fans wants to see their favorite character do things in the story, not be treated like pest and everyone forbidding them.

In DBZ Gohan was allowed to go to space, train for the Android and in the ROSAT, even if there was conditions to change Chi Chi minds. In the Boo Saga and Yo Son Goku OVA she was cool about her family training and fighting.
In DBS nothing changed Chi Chi mind, she was 100% against training and fighting, she even made lame excuse.


There is nothing wrong with gag and comedy, when it doesn't contradict their past work. So maybe accept that quality in DBS was bad at times.

So Toriyama didn't read Toriyama's manga?

I believe Toei are the ones at fault.



DBS felt like a reboot or even a parody at times. It didn't feel like a continuation from the Boo Saga.
DBS might be a good anime, but it is a bad continuation from the Boo Saga.

[fadeddreams5]

I mean there's no way someone could genuine like Modern DB or even, gasp, prefer it to the old childhood show, right? They're just liars, it must be just empty lies.

They either grew up with DBS, or are lying to themselves to justify their love for it. No way such an opinion exists among DB(Z) fans.

[SupremeKai25]

I mean there's no way someone could genuine like Modern DB or even, gasp, prefer it to the old childhood show, right? They're just liars, it must be just empty lies.

They either grew up with DBS, or are lying to themselves to justify their love for it. No way such an opinion exists among DB(Z) fans.

One can be a Dragon Ball fan and at the same time dislike DBZ. It's not like DBZ is the only Dragon Ball product Toriyama ever created.

I'll never understand this fandom's fixation for an old series that ended 30 years ago. Gatekeeping at its finest.

[super michael]

I mean there's no way someone could genuine like Modern DB or even, gasp, prefer it to the old childhood show, right? They're just liars, it must be just empty lies.

They either grew up with DBS, or are lying to themselves to justify their love for it. No way such an opinion exists among DB(Z) fans.

That is possible, if someone never watched Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z and never read Dragon Ball manga, then they wouldn't know how bad the characters are written in DBS.
Of course maybe they are lying to themselves and make many excuses to defend DBS.

If we replace DBS characters personality with their DBZ personality, then the story in DBS will be completely different.
DBZ Goku would see through everyone lies and tricks in the episode of Beerus in a costume an example. He would know Vegeta was meditating in DBS Super Hero and wouldn't need Vegeta to explain anything.

One can be a Dragon Ball fan and at the same time dislike DBZ. It's not like DBZ is the only Dragon Ball product Toriyama ever created.

I'll never understand this fandom's fixation for an old series that ended 30 years ago. Gatekeeping at its finest.

It is one thing to like and dislike something, but to ignore the flaws in DBS doesn't help anyone. People try and make excuses, to make it look like DBS doesn't have bad writing or DBS is the same like DB/DBZ, which they are not the same at all.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

It is one thing to like and dislike something, but to ignore the flaws in DBS doesn't help anyone. People try and make excuses, to make it look like DBS doesn't have bad writing or DBS is the same like DB/DBZ, which they are not the same at all.

Modern DB, especially Super, wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as it has if it weren't for the DB name. Any new series that lacked as much quality in writing and production as Super would've been canceled immediately, that's if it ever got far enough to air on TV.

[SupremeKai25]

Meh. This whole "old Dragon Ball vs. modern Dragon Ball" weird thing with the fandom, as if it wasn't all one story written by Toriyama, is just historical revisionism and sensationalism.

I've dug through the old threads from 2004/2005/2006/etc. I know what the fandom narrative was back then. And I have noticed that all the criticism levied against modern Dragon Ball nowadays consists of things that people complained about back then with the Cell/Buu sagas.

You should take a look at the old, very old threads about these topics. For me, it's been eye-opening. I'm not going to old DBZ on a golden pedestal.

"the Buu saga ruined DBZ and turned it into a joke"

"the protagonists were dumbed down in the Cell saga, Vegeta and Krillin made no sense and acted out of character"

"Gohan in the Buu saga is just a lazy character who gets unearned asspulls after not doing anything for 7 years"

"Buu is just a worse retread of Cell, another body-absorbing villain with regenerative powers, how boring"

"If the Buu saga wasn't a DBZ saga, no one would watch it, ratings fell off in the Buu saga"

A boring tale as old as this fandom.

[super michael]

Vegeta was really bad in the Cell and Boo Saga, there is no denying it. I can list what Vegeta did wrong in them. As for Kuririn, not wanting to kill C18 isn't a bad thing.

Gohan focusing on his studies 100% isn't a bad thing, although he should have trained none the less. Basically have balance between studying and training. Gohan relied on magic to unlock his power, which he had to stay still for 24 hours or more.
Gohan managed to get his potential unlock, thanks to Goku using his brains to get Elder Kaioshin to help.

However in DBS Goku is the one who mess things up and is all the time saying and doing dumb things. Do we really need dedicated episode of him being dumb? No we do not. Does the movie need to make Goku dumb in DBS? No.
They have a huge cast of character to have gag and comedy, but no Goku has to be doing it the whole time.

Same with DBS Goten, Trunks and Boo, did they need to show us all the time they were forbidden or asleep? Wouldn't 1 time be enough?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This whole "old Dragon Ball vs. modern Dragon Ball" weird thing with the fandom, as if it wasn't all one story written by Toriyama.

Classic Dragon Ball and Modern Dragon Ball are not one story; that's factually incorrect. Classic Dragon Ball was fully written and drawn by Toriyama. Modern Dragon Ball was made up of bare bone story notes for the anime and manga's staff to work with. Toriyama himself even called modern DB a "causal" continuation of his original manga, not part of it. There's also the fact that there's over a decade separating the two (classic 80s/90s & Modern 2010s/20s).

[Luso Saiyan]

The lamest thing from modern DB? Impossible to say anything else other than SDBH.

[SupremeKai25]

As for Kuririn, not wanting to kill C18 isn't a bad thing.

It is factually a bad thing because it allowed Cell to absorb 18 and become Perfect, which then resulted in Perfect Cell nearly destroying the entire Earth, and every human along with it.

Clearly a lot of people don't care about the moral aspect in these discussions, or Goku wouldn't be so hated for giving Moro a chance at redemption instead of outright murdering him - which would be the morally evil path, compared to offering redemption.

Gohan focusing on his studies 100% isn't a bad thing, although he should have trained none the less. Basically have balance between studying and training. Gohan relied on magic to unlock his power, which he had to stay still for 24 hours or more.

"Staying still" is not training, is not hardship, and is not meaningful character writing. It's just a cheap shortcut after he slacked off for 7 years but Toriyama still wanted to put him in the spotlight for the main fight - no different than the criticism that Super/Daima is getting.

However in DBS Goku is the one who mess things up and is all the time saying and doing dumb things. Do we really need dedicated episode of him being dumb? No we do not. Does the movie need to make Goku dumb in DBS? No we do not.
They have a huge cast of character to have gag and comedy, but no Goku has to be doing it the whole time.

1) That one episode you keep talking about is an inconsequential Toei gag episode. You might as well complain that Vegeta got himself outsmarted by Arale.

2) Super Hero was written by Toriyama. You might disagree with the way Toriyama presented Goku in his movie, but no one understands Goku better than his creator, Toriyama. That's just a fact.

[fadeddreams5]

Meh. This whole "old Dragon Ball vs. modern Dragon Ball" weird thing with the fandom, as if it wasn't all one story written by Toriyama, is just historical revisionism and sensationalism.

I've dug through the old threads from 2004/2005/2006/etc. I know what the fandom narrative was back then. And I have noticed that all the criticism levied against modern Dragon Ball nowadays consists of things that people complained about back then with the Cell/Buu sagas.

You should take a look at the old, very old threads about these topics. For me, it's been eye-opening. I'm not going to old DBZ on a golden pedestal.

"the Buu saga ruined DBZ and turned it into a joke"

"the protagonists were dumbed down in the Cell saga, Vegeta and Krillin made no sense and acted out of character"

"Gohan in the Buu saga is just a lazy character who gets unearned asspulls after not doing anything for 7 years"

"Buu is just a worse retread of Cell, another body-absorbing villain with regenerative powers, how boring"

"If the Buu saga wasn't a DBZ saga, no one would watch it, ratings fell off in the Buu saga"

A boring tale as old as this fandom.

Most of that holds true though. It's not us revising history. I've said it once and I'll say it again: the Buu saga is when the series jumped the shark, and most of my complaints of modern DB stem from it.

Trivializing the SSJ transformation by making it a kid's plaything. Check.

Over-emphasizing new transformations by introducing SSJ2, SSJ3, and fusions? Check. (no, I don't count those grades from the Cell saga the same way)

Gohan not training? Check.

That said, I feel the good outweighed the bad. Buu and Mr. Satan's relationship was funny and wholesome. The Majin Vegeta moments were badass. The entirety of the Kid Buu arc was fun af. A lot of cool and memorable scenes. To me, it was a step down from the previous arcs, but still far, far, FARRRRR better than most of everything that came after it.

Basically, I have my criticisms of DBZ too, but even at its worst, it still makes most of modern DB look terrible in comparison. But, BUT, I have to be fair too. I will say stuff like Goku vs Jiren and the Broly movie are some of the best stuff we've gotten in franchise history too. It's not all bad.

[SupremeKai25]

This whole "old Dragon Ball vs. modern Dragon Ball" weird thing with the fandom, as if it wasn't all one story written by Toriyama.

Classic Dragon Ball and Modern Dragon Ball are not one story; that's factually incorrect. Classic Dragon Ball was fully written and drawn by Toriyama. Modern Dragon Ball was made up of bare bone story notes for the anime and manga's staff to work with. Toriyama himself even called modern DB a "causal" continuation of his original manga, not part of it. There's also the fact that there's over a decade separating the two (classic 80s/90s & Modern 2010s/20s).

"Bare bone story notes" is your assumption. We know for a fact that the story was written by Toriyama, as stated in an interview that I reported in my signature (you can find the link here on this website or on Reddit just by googling it) and this interview with Victory Uchida of V-Jump

VU: When it comes to Dragon Ball Super, the original story is Toriyama-sensei‘s, but the manga and artwork are by Toyotaro-sensei. The three of us, myself included, work out the story, but then the process of storyboarding it out onto the page is left to Toyotaro-sensei. Since we build in time for Toriyama-sensei to do an additional check, Toyotaro-sensei produces these really clean storyboards.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... tor-video/

I'd like the source for your claim that it's just the "bare bone story notes". (which would still be story notes so it proves my point that it was Toriyama who wrote it)