Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[IntangibleFancy]

If we are to say that this is a direct connection to the Grand Elder's unlocking of potential, let's look at that example from a storytelling perspective. Yes, the Grand Elder can just put his hand on someone and, boom, instant power-up, which, taken in a vacuum, could be considered fairly underwhelming. But look at it as a piece of the story. The power-up is the reward that Gohan and Kuririn receive by risking their lives to save a Namekian child. It connects them to new characters, to allies who make it possible for them to ultimately use the Dragon Balls. Taking the journey to the Grand Elder is a risk and a danger, one that exposes them to Vegeta but at precisely the right time that he becomes a grudging ally rather than a harbinger of death. I certainly have my issues with the storytelling in The Freeza Arc, but this is an example of a thread being woven through the tapestry of the story. It exists as a consequence of previous actions, and it in turn has consequences of its own. It demonstrates the mettle of our characters.

By contrast, our heroes just kinda bump into Neva. He has magic that does things. And... he does them. I say all this knowing that it is still possible (although I wouldn't hold my breath) that all of this will be wrapped up in a satisfying way. I'd be thrilled to be in a position two weeks from now where I'm eating my words. But still... Neva powering up Goku is just a thing that happens. It doesn't really say anything about Goku. Goku doesn't earn anything. There's no real tension or risk. And the form is seemingly already gone without having accomplished anything. None of that has anything to do with whether it is conceivable that Neva could do this. It's not about whether the dreaded plot hole has been avoided. It's about whether this moment helps tell a satisfying story. And as of right now at least, it doesn't. It's just a thing that happens.

.
A good number of fans defending this don't care about any of what you wrote, their logic is that anything Toriyama put out over the past decade was automatically good, and that anyone who doesn't see that is blinded by nostalgia.

I'd say that extends to just about every thing in the franchise, not just what Toriyama wrote. That's why having such a big long running franchise with a big fanbase who mostly grew up with it is a double-edged sword. I remember Sparking Zero going through it a lot, and that's why I dread Xenoverse 3's announcement. This franchise is bound to have a few misses every now and then, but if you dare point them out, valid critiques and complaints or not, you're apparently a fake, ungrateful and "entitled" fan.

And I'm not even saying Daima itself is a miss. I like the idea of it, but some of the execution needs some work or there were things I wished they kept doing or did differently . And I'm probably not even going to be as critical of it 1-2 years from now, when Daima is long finished, the DBS manga is still on break, and the only thing this franchise gets is a steady stream of gacha-game updates and small-scale DLC.

[Cybersai]

I have now caught up.

I never want to hear anyone say the Granolah arc's back half is just characterless action-figures fighting again.

I don't know when the last time I was this unengaged during a DB climax was, if ever. For as much as Super (TV) could be frustrating, at least character beats were happening—even clumsy ones.

There's hardly even been any dialogue the last two episodes—it's been traded out for everyone ganging up on and being beaten back by Goma without a real thrust or narrative (even just in terms of action) to the fight, like a '90s DBZ movie. It's all beautifully animated, but there's just nothing happening to keep me engaged.

I genuinely don't see any problems with the main cast teaming up against Gomah, would it have been better if everyone just stood there watching Goku fight? Supreme Kai, Glorio, etc. joining in makes a lot of sense. While Gomah may have no real chemistry with the main cast, he's basically a goofy villain with a power up and thus far the fight has only gone on about 2 episodes.

I generally confused why people have a problem with pacing, when aside from the previous two eps before everyone met up with Arinsu could have been combined into one, there's nothing that feels like it's dragging.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This franchise is bound to have a few misses every now and then, but if you dare point them out, valid critiques and complaints or not, you're apparently a fake, ungrateful and "entitled" fan.

Yeah, no one can say the smallest thing against Sparking Zero without being labeled public enemy #1, #2, & #3. Not to start a debate on whether not not SZ is good or not, but it's hard to deny how incomplete that game feels. Even its Superhero DLC feels incomplete thanks to the lack of stages from the movie.

I'm not even saying Daima itself is a miss, but some of the execution needs some work or there were things I wished they kept doing or did differently.

Everyone in the know made Daima seem like it was going to be the new standard for anime, only for it to just be an OK show. Outside of fake Ssj4, there's nothing I particularly dislike about it, but there's also nothing I love either. For a show with all that talent involved, all that production time, all that hype by people in the know, surely they could've given us something better, right ?

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama claims to have written the story for the series and I believe he also checked the scripts. The series' lack of structure within episodes and feeling like a single story stretched out extremely thinly also comes across as if it's meant to be one long script, rather than individual episodes contributing to an overall plot. Details that would feel unlike Toriyama would have also crept into the scripts more often.

I don't think Toriyama would have straight up copied story beats from GT like for example the Giants episode. That seems very much like details by those who suggested this trip down Gt's memory lane.

I doubt beyond lore, specific gags and general plot Toriyama contributed much.

The likely scenario is him writing something like: "they turn into kids and get weaker, gradually recovering their powers through various battles". The how and the when's not included.

The script writers either by orders or not wanting to deviate of Toriyama's nebulous writing did a piss poor job.
Toriyama supervision wouldn't help since he's accomplice of not making corrections, unless it's a silly gag. This from his editor-like role in the Super manga and how he just goes along with suggestions, not making all that many changes.

From October 12, 2023:

I came up with the story and settings, as well as a lot of the designs. I’m actually putting a lot more into this than usual!

Not the most descriptive quote, but it does appear that he was more involved in the series than usual.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Not the most descriptive quote, but it does appear that he was more involved in the series than usual.

I really hope one day we can get a modern guide book that goes into detail about Toriyama's exact involvement with each modern project. The old guide books from back in the day explained each thing he did for the anime and older movies, so hopefully something similar is released eventually for Super and Daima.

[Retan]

I guess for me when it comes to daima was I was thinking every episode was going to have have as much effort and soul pored into it as this episode. Even though that’s not really fair.

I never really had any hope for the story, especially when it was shown that Goku and Co. would be kids again. I did hope goku would at least be as fun as he was in OG dragon ball, but whatever.

my final thoughts for this post, why oh why couldn’t they have put as much time and effort into supers preproduction as they did this, that was really the way to go. But apparently thats not really the strength of toei animation. To decide what stories deserves time and prep and which don’t

[AliTheZombie13]

Not that I really enjoy Super, but if Toei pointed a gun to my head and asked me, "Which show gets the better production treatment?" I would still give it to Daima, even though I feel Super had more interesting ideas, simply because as flawed as it is, Toriyama was actually into making Daima.

I don't like it, but give the artist the power at least.

[JulieYBM]

Not that I really enjoy Super, but if Toei pointed a gun to my head and asked me, "Which show gets the better production treatment?" I would still give it to Daima, even though I feel Super had more interesting ideas, simply because as flawed as it is, Toriyama was actually into making Daima.

I don't like it, but give the artist the power at least.

Artists—creative people—worked on Dragon Ball Super, too. They deserved a hell of a lot better than the bullshit that they were forced to work under for three years.

[AliTheZombie13]

Artists—creative people—worked on Dragon Ball Super, too. They deserved a hell of a lot better than the bullshit that they were forced to work under for three years.

I agree. And in a perfect world where Toei wasn't preoccupied solely on making money, I would have it like that.
But that's not our world, our world's history was "Let's start a new Dragon Ball product immediately, no matter how many people die in the process."

[Yuji]

Not that I really enjoy Super, but if Toei pointed a gun to my head and asked me, "Which show gets the better production treatment?" I would still give it to Daima, even though I feel Super had more interesting ideas, simply because as flawed as it is, Toriyama was actually into making Daima.

I don't like it, but give the artist the power at least.

I'm honestly not seeing how Toriyama was more involved with Daima than the average Super arc. It seems he contributed with plot notes and lore drops and some character designs. It definitely doesn't seem he's writing the scripts of each episode, in the way he actually wrote the Super movies.

[JulieYBM]

Artists—creative people—worked on Dragon Ball Super, too. They deserved a hell of a lot better than the bullshit that they were forced to work under for three years.

I agree. And in a perfect world where Toei wasn't preoccupied solely on making money, I would have it like that.
But that's not our world, our world's history was "Let's start a new Dragon Ball product immediately, no matter how many people die in the process."

That's beside's the point, because you weren't talking about the real word. You were talking about a hypothetical. You didn't need to make a post where you said what you said.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm honestly not seeing how Toriyama was more involved with Daima than the average Super arc. It seems he contributed with plot notes and lore drops and some character designs. It definitely doesn't seem he's writing the scripts of each episode, in the way he actually wrote the Super movies.

It's what he said about Daima before passing, "I have been more excited about this one production than any of the others recently." (Or something among these lines, my memory is fuzzy.)

[SupremeKai25]

Not that I really enjoy Super, but if Toei pointed a gun to my head and asked me, "Which show gets the better production treatment?" I would still give it to Daima, even though I feel Super had more interesting ideas, simply because as flawed as it is, Toriyama was actually into making Daima.

I don't like it, but give the artist the power at least.

I mean, Super improved a lot.

[Mr Baggins]

In a very recent, largely untranslated interview (you can find independent translations on Twitter) Iyoku again confirms this is the project Toriyama contributed to the most, and then goes even further to say there is very little in the show that he didn't touch.

This is both surprising and unsurprising. Surprising because Iyoku is well known for collaborating with Toriyama on his own scripted movies, though I'll point out his statement could still work considering Toriyama didn't actually come up with a lot of the ideas for those films and didn't touch the action scenes, whereas he might have here. Unsurprising because whether you like Daima or not, and whether you like Toriyama or not, the show as a whole has Toriyama written all over it. It's especially noticeable if you're even mildly familiar with his non-DB works.

I've also yet to watch a single modern project outside of Super Hero that captures Toriyama's comedic timing as well as Daima. There's no question he had a hand in the script.

[LightBing]

From October 12, 2023:
I came up with the story and settings, as well as a lot of the designs. I’m actually putting a lot more into this than usual!
Not the most descriptive quote, but it does appear that he was more involved in the series than usual.

I don't doubt his role. Just pointing out clues of details that I doubt were from him. I don't think he watched GT in preparation for this, he might have but yeah...

On the other hand the minotaur character(episode 5 or 6), all to make a pun is something I can see him dedicating a lot of detail and a plot I immediately thought, this is Toriyama! There's quite a few moments like these in this show.

In a very recent, largely untranslated interview (you can find independent translations on Twitter) Iyoku again confirms this is the project Toriyama contributed to the most, and then goes even further to say there is very little in the show that he didn't touch.

This is both surprising and unsurprising. Surprising because Iyoku is well known for collaborating with Toriyama on his own scripted movies, though I'll point out his statement could still work considering Toriyama didn't actually come up with a lot of the ideas for those films and didn't touch the action scenes, whereas he might have here. Unsurprising because whether you like Daima or not, and whether you like Toriyama or not, the show as a whole has Toriyama written all over it. It's especially noticeable if you're even mildly familiar with his non-DB works.

I've also yet to watch a single modern project outside of Super Hero that captures Toriyama's comedic timing as well as Daima. There's no question he had a hand in the script.

Just talking about this last action scene. It doesn't feel like Toriyama wrote it at all.
This has the Toei classics with characters repeating special attacks and getting back up after being seemingly defeated. Plus all the weird sequencing.

[Artorias]

No episode of this show has made me more depressed, not because this is the worst episode or anything. But because it once again just drills into my head how wasted all of this phenomenal production value is. The story and writing is just not carrying its weight. So many talented animators, storyboard artists, background artists, directors, and more clearly pouring their heart and soul into delivering a true feast for the eyes throughout this entire show, and especially in this episode. Yet I still feel absolutely hollow watching this. I adore the animation and overall presentation in this episode, and I'll likely revisit this often in the future for that alone. But like the rest of the series, there is just no meat on the bone at all whatsoever. Incredibly sad for me to watch all of the beautiful paint be slapped on a rotting and withered canvas.

[Cybersai]

No episode of this show has made me more depressed, not because this is the worst episode or anything. But because it once again just drills into my head how wasted all of this phenomenal production value is. The story and writing is just not carrying its weight. So many talented animators, storyboard artists, background artists, directors, and more clearly pouring their heart and soul into delivering a true feast for the eyes throughout this entire show, and especially in this episode. Yet I still feel absolutely hollow watching this. I adore the animation and overall presentation in this episode, and I'll likely revisit this often in the future for that alone. But like the rest of the series, there is just no meat on the bone at all whatsoever. Incredibly sad for me to watch all of the beautiful paint be slapped on a rotting and withered canvas.

The irony is back in 2018 I remember people saying the same thing or very similar about Goku vs. Jiren in the TOP. That the animation was (for Super standards) beautiful at the time but it felt shallow because Jiren barely had any character and Ultra Instinct came out of nowhere. I feel like this is something people are going to say a lot going forward honestly. I think I recall some people saying this during Gogeta vs Broly too.

[Artorias]

But I feel that's missing the point. It's treating storytelling as this strictly quantifiable formula: Put one unit of setup in, get one unit of transformation out. It feels like power scaling for storytelling, a type of Cinema Sins-esque warding off of plot holes. If we can fashion a logical precedent that means this controversial element could feasibly exist, it is therefore okay. But I don't think that's how it should be judged, and it's certainly not what I'm saying when I claim this transformation does nothing for me.

Ding ding ding. This right here is the key problem with a LOT of modern DB discourse. Too many people treat storytelling as if it's an equation that can just be "solved". As long as something "makes sense" and isn't literally an objective plot hole, everything is fine. And therefor, if you criticize it, you're either objectively wrong or you just "don't understand it". It's all science, no art. If X, then Y, then Z. Nothing in between. No actual contextual analysis of whether or not something is narratively satisfying, or thematically fitting, or is properly built-up, or literally anything beyond surface level, rigid logic. If you can headcanon your way to reverse engineer something to "make sense", then you've "solved" the story and you move on, like it's some sort of algebra problem.

No episode of this show has made me more depressed, not because this is the worst episode or anything. But because it once again just drills into my head how wasted all of this phenomenal production value is. The story and writing is just not carrying its weight. So many talented animators, storyboard artists, background artists, directors, and more clearly pouring their heart and soul into delivering a true feast for the eyes throughout this entire show, and especially in this episode. Yet I still feel absolutely hollow watching this. I adore the animation and overall presentation in this episode, and I'll likely revisit this often in the future for that alone. But like the rest of the series, there is just no meat on the bone at all whatsoever. Incredibly sad for me to watch all of the beautiful paint be slapped on a rotting and withered canvas.

The irony is back in 2018 I remember people saying the same thing or very similar about Goku vs. Jiren in the TOP. That the animation was (for Super standards) beautiful at the time but it felt shallow because Jiren barely had any character and Ultra Instinct came out of nowhere. I feel like this is something people are going to say a lot going forward honestly. I think I recall some people saying this during Gogeta vs Broly too.

It sadly seems things won't be improving any time soon, given how consistent this problem has been over the past decade and a half. Most DB projects in the modern era simply do not have the narrative might to back up the, at times, jaw dropping visuals and overall presentation. It's such a massive mismatch. Dragon Ball was never some narrative masterpiece either, so I'm not even asking for 10/10 ironclad storytelling. That would be unreasonable. But what I will say is that the franchise just desperately needs a complete overhaul in the way it tells its stories. But I sadly don't see any incentive for them to do so, given how successful the franchise has been over the past decade and a half.

[SupremeKai25]

No episode of this show has made me more depressed, not because this is the worst episode or anything. But because it once again just drills into my head how wasted all of this phenomenal production value is. The story and writing is just not carrying its weight. So many talented animators, storyboard artists, background artists, directors, and more clearly pouring their heart and soul into delivering a true feast for the eyes throughout this entire show, and especially in this episode. Yet I still feel absolutely hollow watching this. I adore the animation and overall presentation in this episode, and I'll likely revisit this often in the future for that alone. But like the rest of the series, there is just no meat on the bone at all whatsoever. Incredibly sad for me to watch all of the beautiful paint be slapped on a rotting and withered canvas.

The irony is back in 2018 I remember people saying the same thing or very similar about Goku vs. Jiren in the TOP. That the animation was (for Super standards) beautiful at the time but it felt shallow because Jiren barely had any character and Ultra Instinct came out of nowhere. I feel like this is something people are going to say a lot going forward honestly. I think I recall some people saying this during Gogeta vs Broly too.

And before that, long before that, people were complaining that Majin Buu barely had any character compared to Freeza and Cell, and SSJ3 and Fusion kind of came out of nowhere.

A tale as old as this fandom.

[Zephyr]

But I feel that's missing the point. It's treating storytelling as this strictly quantifiable formula: Put one unit of setup in, get one unit of transformation out. It feels like power scaling for storytelling, a type of Cinema Sins-esque warding off of plot holes. If we can fashion a logical precedent that means this controversial element could feasibly exist, it is therefore okay. But I don't think that's how it should be judged, and it's certainly not what I'm saying when I claim this transformation does nothing for me.

Ding ding ding. This right here is the key problem with a LOT of modern DB discourse. Too many people treat storytelling as if it's an equation that can just be "solved". As long as something "makes sense" and isn't literally an objective plot hole, everything is fine. And therefor, if you criticize it, you're either objectively wrong or you just "don't understand it". It's all science, no art. If X, then Y, then Z. Nothing in between. No actual contextual analysis of whether or not something is narratively satisfying, or thematically fitting, or is properly built-up, or literally anything beyond surface level, rigid logic. If you can headcanon your way to reverse engineer something to "make sense", then you've "solved" the story and you move on, like it's some sort of algebra problem.

That is, ironically, what a lot of critique feels like at times too. Like storytelling is a one-size-fits-all affair, with a complete set of strict rules that every single one needs to follow, else it is poorly written. They need to make sure they "show don't tell", and "fire all of Chekov's Guns", and "follow the Hero's Journey", and whatever other concepts the person making the critique read about on TV Tropes and/or learned about in their Intro to English Lit class. That's not even to say these aren't helpful devices and concepts for analyzing and critiquing a story, but it often feels like they're treated as prescriptive rules that storytellers must follow in order for the work to be Good™, rather than common trends that many storytellers have followed. It comes across like a substitute for analysis and critique all too often.