Rank the various arcs of the franchise

[TechExpert2021]

Unrelated to the thread, but would Daima be better if it was originally a web series (which was rumored to be a web series months between the initial teaser trailer of Daima and the July 2024 trailer) like SDBH with episodes being 5-8 minutes long?

[AliTheZombie13]

Unrelated to the thread, but would Daima be better if it was originally a web series (which was rumored to be a web series months between the initial teaser trailer of Daima and the July 2024 trailer) like SDBH with episodes being 5-8 minutes long?

There would have to be "Daima Kai" version of it for me to judge.
But yes, if it was shorter, and reduced all the moments of lore dumping, flashbacks, repeated information and fake tension, it would flow a lot better and eliminate a lot of my grievances with the show.

[BernardoCairo]

It's difficult to rank Daima while it's still airing (which is why I haven't). But shortening it to 5 to 8-minute episodes wouldn't improve it much, I think. As it stands, I’ll probably end up liking it more than GT and Super (anime) once it's all set and done, even with the weaker episodes.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Would Daima be better if it was originally a web series with episodes being 5-8 minutes long?

I think it would be better even with 15 minute long episodes. There's just not enough material there to justify the full 20 minutes.

There would have to be "Daima Kai" version of it for me to judge.

I expect someone to do this sooner or later.

[sunsetshimmer]

You could easily cut half of Daima out and miss nothing. Why it wasn't edited down to a movie's length and put in theaters is beyond me.

Tbh that's exactly my opinion on ToP arc, especially in anime. In fact, i would say at least 80% of it could be cut and you wouldn't miss anything. Plenty of people do not remember most of fodder and they do not appear in games etc. The thing is, it's not 6 or even 20 episodes long. It's as long as entire GT series. That's why i rate it at absolutely lowest tier. Watching it was just painful. It was in fact the only arc in DB history that i simply couldn't finish, i stopped watching after very first episodes and wouldn't finish it until it aired in Poland with a dub and i watched entire series simply to support our first dub for DB (except Z movies 12&13). Otherwise, i would probably never find enough will to finish it. I mean the only antagonist characters in this arc that mattered in any way were Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo + Ribrianne + U6 warriors, mostly saiyans. Maybe the three wolves had some relevance and that's it i think.

[Yuji]

Daima Kai is a funny title. Considering Demon Realm is Dai Makai in Japanese

[TechExpert2021]

Daima Kai is a funny title. Considering Demon Realm is Dai Makai in Japanese

大魔界 (daimakai) = Great Demon Realm or Great Demon World

The word "Great" in the name "Great Demon Realm" is omitted in Toei's official simulcast English subs of Daima every time 大魔界 (daimakai) is spoken in the series, rendering the translation partially inaccurate. The same goes for the name "Great Demon King" (大魔王, daimaō), except that they replaced the word "Great" with "Supreme".

[Zephyr]

Daima Kai is a funny title. Considering Demon Realm is Dai Makai in Japanese

If the inevitable shortened fancut of Daima doesn't roll with a pun like this for its name, I'll be extremely disappointed.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

That's exactly my opinion on ToP arc, especially in anime. In fact, i would say at least 80% of it could be cut and you wouldn't miss anything. Plenty of people do not remember most of fodder and they do not appear in games etc.

The multiverse was completely wasted in that arc. Why not introduce U10 characters in the Zamasu arc, then have a shorter tournament between U7, U6, U10, and U11 ?

[BernardoCairo]

That's exactly my opinion on ToP arc, especially in anime. In fact, i would say at least 80% of it could be cut and you wouldn't miss anything. Plenty of people do not remember most of fodder and they do not appear in games etc.

I don't agree with this for one big reason: the arc was "80%" cut in the manga, and it’s absolute trash compared to the anime version. It's definitely the worst arc in the manga after Granolah.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I don't agree with this for one big reason: the arc was "80%" cut in the manga, and it’s absolute trash compared to the anime version. It's definitely the worst arc in the manga after Granolah.

The tournament of power is flawed at its core; you'd have to re-write it from the ground up for it to work. A simple omission of certain scenes/episodes won't be enough to fix it.

[GokuHater]

You could easily cut half of Daima out and miss nothing. Why it wasn't edited down to a movie's length and put in theaters is beyond me.

Tbh that's exactly my opinion on ToP arc, especially in anime. In fact, i would say at least 80% of it could be cut and you wouldn't miss anything. Plenty of people do not remember most of fodder and they do not appear in games etc. The thing is, it's not 6 or even 20 episodes long. It's as long as entire GT series. That's why i rate it at absolutely lowest tier. Watching it was just painful. It was in fact the only arc in DB history that i simply couldn't finish, i stopped watching after very first episodes and wouldn't finish it until it aired in Poland with a dub and i watched entire series simply to support our first dub for DB (except Z movies 12&13). Otherwise, i would probably never find enough will to finish it. I mean the only antagonist characters in this arc that mattered in any way were Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo + Ribrianne + U6 warriors, mostly saiyans. Maybe the three wolves had some relevance and that's it i think.

The problem with ToP is that at it's best it's one of the most well animated, exciting and beautiful DB can deliver
However this is mostly the ending, some stuff in the beginning and specific UI moments.

At it's worst, ToP is an absolute slog to get through having some of the worst writing of the entire series.

And because most of this has a filler feel to it, when the dust is settled after the arc, we rarely think of this episodes.
On my first airing I tried to watch ToP 5 times.
4 times I dropped out at similar time because of sheer boredom.

The manga version is rushed but I actually prefer it as it cuts all the nonsense.

[Yuji]

That's exactly my opinion on ToP arc, especially in anime. In fact, i would say at least 80% of it could be cut and you wouldn't miss anything. Plenty of people do not remember most of fodder and they do not appear in games etc.

I don't agree with this for one big reason: the arc was "80%" cut in the manga, and it’s absolute trash compared to the anime version. It's definitely the worst arc in the manga after Granolah.

I disagree. The Tournament of Power in the manga cuts down a lot of the fluff and it actually tells a clear, concise and straightforward story with themes of teamwork, trust and strength. Every major character has an arc that is well presented and completed. It is probably Dragon Ball's most conventionally well written and thematically dense story, in the sense that everything has a satisfying payoff, even if some set pieces and dramatic moments come across as underwhelming. In comparison, the anime version is a clusterfuck mess. For as good as 10% of the anime ToP is in terms of spectacle and rule of cool, there's another 90% of inane nonsense especially in the first half.

[BernardoCairo]

I disagree. The Tournament of Power in the manga cuts down a lot of the fluff and it actually tells a clear, concise and straightforward story with themes of teamwork, trust and strength.

As I said before, I greatly prefer Toyotaro’s manga over the anime. However, I have to disagree regarding this arc. While the introduction of Ultra Instinct is far more compelling in the manga, as are the themes of camaraderie and teamwork, the story doesn’t develop them enough. Its shorter length also means losing great character moments, like Muten Roshi’s sacrifice, Gohan and Freeza working together, and a proper Vegeta vs. Toppo fight.
I especially miss the emphasis the anime placed on Freeza and Goku’s dynamic. The arc isn’t bad in concept, but it feels rushed, as if Toyotaro was simply pushing through it to get to the Moro arc, which he seemed much more invested in.

[sunsetshimmer]

That's exactly my opinion on ToP arc, especially in anime. In fact, i would say at least 80% of it could be cut and you wouldn't miss anything. Plenty of people do not remember most of fodder and they do not appear in games etc.

I don't agree with this for one big reason: the arc was "80%" cut in the manga, and it’s absolute trash compared to the anime version. It's definitely the worst arc in the manga after Granolah.

I actually think manga version is far superior honestly. Just like Vegeta th3 4th said - ToP is bad at its core, but if i have to choose i prefer manga version for at least not wasting my time. Also i liked portrayal of some characters better. I like Gohan fighting Kefla as well. Not to mention Kale that is MUCH better in manga imo.

[AliTheZombie13]

...

I was going to wait, but nah, with one episode left, it ain't turning me around. It is what it is.

Dragon Ball Daima: 1/10

Spoiler:

At its best, Daima is just a painfully inoffensive, barebones story about Good vs. Evil that prioritizes spectacle above everything else. And hey, there's nothing wrong with that. If you like pretty and well-animated fight scenes, power to you. It's just not my thing.

At its worst, it outright infuriates me with large segments of exposition dumping that is completely irrelevant to the story, or fake tension where characters spend entire episodes pretending to be weak, before going, "Nah, we weren't even serious!" During these segments, all I could feel was that my time was being wasted with a bunch of nothing, and that's the worst thing you can say about a show.

There are genuinely good ideas here that are underexplored or have a terrible payoff. Glorio's struggles with loyalty, Shin's suspicions of Glorio, Arinsu's redemption and questionable morality, Pansy's quest to be a hero, Degesu's ambitions and betrayal of Gomah, Dende being kidnapped, a new Hunt for the Dragon Balls in a new Realm, characters being nerfed and having to adjust to new bodies... They all go nowhere and are all shoved aside to make way for new, shiny transformations that don't mean anything and characters fighting just for the sake of fighting. It all felt to me as extremely hollow and boring.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but this is worse than Cell. At least Cell had a story.
This is "Good ideas, bad execution." For all the GT comparisons, Daima is far, far, far inferior.

ALL RANKED FROM BEST TO WORST:

#01: First Dragon Ball Hunt Arc
#02: 21st Budokai Tenkaichi
#03: Baby Saga
#04: Piccolo Daimao
#05: Saiyans
#06: Battle of Gods (Movie Only)
#07: Super Hero
#08: Red Ribbon
#09: Evil Dragons
#10: Broly
#11: Afterlife Tournament
#12: 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi
#13: 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi
#14: Namek
#15: Goku Black
#16: Boo
#17: Super #17
#18: Garlic Jr.
#19: Cell
#20: Daima
#21: Champa
#22: Tournament of Power
#23: Resurrection F

[Zephyr]

I think people are really exaggerating how bad the Tournament of Power is "at its core", unless you just dislike tournament stories with a "losers must die" angle.

There are three big issues with it.

1. We're supposed to believe all of that shit happened in the span of 48 minutes. So many conversations, so many instances of people pushing themselves to exhaustion and recovering enough to continue fighting. If they never introduced that framing gimmick, and we were allowed to believe that it took at least as much time to happen as it did to watch, it would have gone a long way to making it not feel like as much of a slog.

2. But even if it took nearly 12 hours in-universe, a lot of the moment-to-moment stuff is indeed still a slog just from a raw viewing standpoint. There is so much time dedicated to characters who really don't matter. Goku, Freeza, #17, and Geran are who the story is about, and their dynamics and growth through each other is really good stuff. I think it is very clear and straightforward, even if nowhere close to concise. Hit, Caulifla, Kale, Frost, Dyspo, Gohan, and Toppo are also important supporting characters in that mix. Most everyone else is a glorified Tenkaichi Budokai preliminary contestant, who really didn't need the amount of spotlight they got (especially Vegeta).

3. That recruitment stuff was mostly unnecessary. #17 had been out of the story for a very long time (and never actually met Goku before), and Freeza was a begrudging ally. For those two, it makes sense to showcase Goku's recruitment, especially given that they are characters the story arc is about. Vegeta? Piccolo? They were just there with Goku fighting in the last tournament. Gohan, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Roshi? They showed up to fight Freeza, like, a year ago, with no invitation from Goku; you do not need to convince them. Kuririn in particular had also just gotten a "get my groove back" episode less than 10 episodes before his recruitment, making that even less necessary than it otherwise would have been. You could make the case that maybe he'd need to convince #18 a little bit, but I don't think it was necessary to show that to the audience.

The best thing Toyotaro's adaptation added was showing just how crazy a free for all can be when someone just goes ham, via Kale and Frost. But that comes at the expense of so much of the character dynamics and chemistry between Goku and Freeza, and Goku and Geran. It cuts the nonsense and also stuff it shouldn't have. Also, tying Ultra Instinct into past lessons is interesting, but Goku calling himself "the worst apprentice ever who never listened" is just a load of crock.

[BernardoCairo]

I actually think manga version is far superior honestly. Just like Vegeta th3 4th said - ToP is bad at its core, but if i have to choose i prefer manga version for at least not wasting my time. Also i liked portrayal of some characters better. I like Gohan fighting Kefla as well. Not to mention Kale that is MUCH better in manga imo.

I personally don’t see how the Tournament of Power is a bad idea at its core. It’s pure fighting mayhem and a struggle for survival. The story aims to honor Dragon Ball's history by bringing together all these beloved characters to fight. Plus, the dynamic between Goku and Freeza works especially well with the theme of teamwork and trust.
As I said before, the manga version has a lot of cool ideas, but they all feel rushed. Kale was mostly used as a device to eliminate as many participants as possible just to speed up the story. And then, a fusion of her and another saiyajin still can't even defeat truly Gohan on his own.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I personally don’t see how the Tournament of Power is a bad idea at its core. It’s pure fighting mayhem and a struggle for survival. The story aims to honor Dragon Ball's history by bringing together all these beloved characters to fight.

The problem is that no one out of U7 and U6 are loved. There's no weight behind the eliminations because we don't know any of these characters and have no attachment to them. Had the tournament been smaller in scale (4 universes), and had U10 been established during the Zamasu arc, then we'd feel something seeing these pride troopers form U11 throwing everyone out.

Dragon Ball Daima: 1/10

This is "Good ideas, bad execution." For all the GT comparisons, Daima is far, far, far inferior.

GT and Super's ideas were badly executed, while Daima's were rushed. The Black Star arc for example would require a lot of rewrites to be anywhere near good. The tournament of power would require even more rewrites to make us care about all those characters. Unlike GT and Super's ideas that require extensive rewrites to be good, Daima's just needed more room to breath. Piccolo in Daima took down Degesu, however I would've liked it to be an actual fight rather than a one shot. Glorio working against the heroes was interesting, however it was resolved too fast. Ssj3 and Ssj4 are great to see in modern animation, they just needed more build up. Vegeta remembering his infant son all alone on earth would've been great to see before he transformed. The pieces are all there, they just need more room to breath.

[AliTheZombie13]

GT and Super's ideas were badly executed, while Daima's were rushed.

I wouldn't exactly call them rushed, given the show's absurd time of pre-production.

The Black Star arc for example would require a lot of rewrites to be anywhere near good.

Agree to disagree here, I like the first half of the Baby Arc.
The random adventures are fun enough, with sole exception of the Oolong Planet... and the creepy scenes with Pan.