How would you fix Daima?

[Rory]

I feel these have probably all be said but:

Show don't tell - Instead of telling us Glinds are born of trees, maybe have an episode where this is a relevant plot-point? An episode where we find a Glind being born and they have to care for it - something? I dunno, if you're gonna spend a scene expositing, just consider how important it is to the story.

Consider your characters - Literally why is Bulma there? Why's Piccolo there? Even if they do something cool at this point, the story has totally failed them.

Set things up before paying them off - Would've been cool to see the Third Eye used in some fashion before the last fight, so we had an idea of it being a threat.

Make the whole "they're kids thing" actually a factor. Take Super Saiyan off the table, or very hard to achieve - make fights actually high-stakes affairs.

[Vice]

Sorry mate, but this response sounded just like someone trying to be funny out of sheer laziness to actually elaborate why this would be worse than what we're getting

Nobody would watch a show centered around Kaioshin, Goten and Trunks. Like, literally nobody

[JulieYBM]

Sorry mate, but this response sounded just like someone trying to be funny out of sheer laziness to actually elaborate why this would be worse than what we're getting

Nobody would watch a show centered around Kaioshin, Goten and Trunks. Like, literally nobody

People will watch the series if it's called Dragon Ball, people will watch the series if it's well-written and directed, and people will watch the series if you give it a real hook (Trunks and Goten shipping, for example).

I mean, hell, people are apparently watching Daima as it is and the thing's kinda just really shitty, people are willing to put up with a lot because of brand loyalty.

[Yuji]

Sorry mate, but this response sounded just like someone trying to be funny out of sheer laziness to actually elaborate why this would be worse than what we're getting

Nobody would watch a show centered around Kaioshin, Goten and Trunks. Like, literally nobody

Not if it's marketed as the grand continuation of Dragon Ball, sure. But if Daima was the exact same show with those adjustments in cast, and marketing to match its side-story, low stakes adventure vibe? I'd be willing to bet a lot less people would be critical of it.

[FinalForumPodcast]

Either significantly more episodes, or significantly fewer.

If you wanted to just give us a bunch of forms for people to clap at and silly undercuttings of characters we might think were supposed to be big deals who wind up being jokes to laugh at, then cut the fat, stop having the ship break every episode, and give me what Daima is in a 2 hour movie format.

If you wanted to tell an actual story...you're rushing through so many things here so fast at times that you needed more time to let some of this stuff breathe.
Vegeta gets SSJ3. "He just trained hard' and then it's never mentioned or anything again. We don't even really get any of that good, traditional "Haha Kakarot, we're on the same level now" boasting.
Goku goes SSJ4 and it feels perfunctory, frankly. All of the significance we're supposed to get from it is because we know it from GT, not from anything that happens in THIS show.
That's actually a LOT of this show, everything that happens is something you have to glean/infer/enjoy due to your knowledge of something else...and in some cases that something else is not in continuity with this thing, so it's not doing any of its own legwork.

You could also have given Piccolo something to do, and spent time with fun little character moments. I was so excited to see Bulma and Pansy play off one another and then...I don't know if they were actually really introduced to one another. Piccolo has borderline not reacted to ANYTHING in this show. I wouldn't mind flashes to kid Mr. Satan. Why did EVERYONE turn into kids if there's not gonna be some silly hijinks with that? You could have done SOMETHING with Degesu instead of "He works for Gomah until he doesn't for five seconds then gets swatted away." You could have done SOMETHING with shutting down Warp Sama instead of just making it get magically fixed by Nevah anyway...shows/movies/stories bringing up some big potential roadblock just to magically wipe it away moments later is a big pet peeve of mine. Why have that in there at all? It didn't really matter.

I've loved the little character moments, but there aren't enough of them. Kuu and Duu being best bois and getting choccy bars and brothering each other is so delightful...and the fights are gorgeous too...but there's also a BUNCH of storytelling issues because this thing is only 20 episodes long, and that's making it be a thing that's fun while it's on but the second it's over you start thinking "Wait...." and the more you think down that track, the worse the story starts to feel.


Oh also, I wouldn't have started production until the story and script were finished, but Toei decided not to do that.

[JulieYBM]

You can do a lot in twenty episodes, you just have to have a plot and character arcs that you want to explore. Dragon Ball Daima has none of those things, so the twenty episodes come across as meandering with little in the way of exploring the world in a significant way or that exploration reflecting back on the characters and their growth.

[Vice]

People will watch the series if it's called Dragon Ball

And has Goku in it. That one is pretty important. You know how I know this? Toriyama tried this with Gohan and it flopped, and Gohan is waaaaaaaaaaaay more significant than these three

people will watch the series if it's well-written and directed

Toei doesn’t do "well-written and directed" though, even with help from Toriyama in mind. I might give it to you if it were well animated, but that's either here or there with them

and people will watch the series if you give it a real hook (Trunks and Goten shipping, for example)

Gross. Shipping is the worst thing that could happen to a Dragon Ball series

I mean, hell, people are apparently watching Daima as it is and the thing's kinda just really shitty, people are willing to put up with a lot because of brand loyalty.

Well, yeah. Because Toriyama was hugely involved with it, it has Goku and Vegeta in it and you have to factor in Toriyama's death as well

However, you have to also factor in how many viewers you'd retain without a Goku and Vegeta carrying what we'd know would be a mid series already writing and character wise, that's an awful hard ask for them to retain viewership even with general franchise loyalty and respect in mind, while you're also asking three comparatively unpopular and shallow characters try to hold up a 20+ episode series. You've said it yourself, this is shitty AND kinda unpopular even with motherfucking GOKU all over the show

[JulieYBM]

People will watch the series if it's called Dragon Ball

And has Goku in it. That one is pretty important. You know how I know this? Toriyama tried this with Gohan and it flopped, and Gohan is waaaaaaaaaaaay more significant than these three

Toriyama stated that he couldn't figure out how to write Gohan as a lead character. There's no indication of there being a financial flop in the early and mid-1990s with Gohan in the leading role.

people will watch the series if it's well-written and directed

Toei doesn’t do "well-written and directed" though, even with help from Toriyama in mind. I might give it to you if it were well animated, but that's either here or there with them

Toei Animation isn't a monolith. Each series—especially on larger franchise series—are crafted under rules and restraints that restrict staff's abilities to tell stories. These rules need to be lifted so that the people making these series aren't restricted to playing things safe.

and people will watch the series if you give it a real hook (Trunks and Goten shipping, for example)

Gross. Shipping is the worst thing that could happen to a Dragon Ball series

Well, since you could have just not said anything at all but specifically chose to call a pairing of two male characters as 'gross', I'm not going to feel bad about telling you to go fuck yourself lol.

Kale x Caulifla was a thing that happened, it's hardly a stretch to propose Trunks x Goten.

[Vice]

Not if it's marketed as the grand continuation of Dragon Ball, sure.

Oh yes, marketing. Yet another thing Toei is very, very bad at with Dragon Ball

But if Daima was the exact same show with those adjustments in cast, and marketing to match its side-story, low stakes adventure vibe? I'd be willing to bet a lot less people would be critical of it.

That's because a lot less people would be watching it, more likely than not

I'm not trying to be super negative or anything, but why would you think these three characters are popular enough to carry 20 episodes of an almost assuredly mid show?

[AliTheZombie13]

And has Goku in it. That one is pretty important. You know how I know this? Toriyama tried this with Gohan and it flopped, and Gohan is waaaaaaaaaaaay more significant than these three.

"Gohan wouldn't really make for a good protagonist." - Everybody, including Toriyama.
So, I guess we should just keep having Goku and Vegeta, having to relearn the very same lessons 'til they die?

If the new generation of Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Videl isn't working, then make them work!
Because Goku and Vegeta are past done being interesting.

I know I'm expecting too much from a greedy capitalist-driven series, but if they can't take risks for the sake of the art because that would impact their precious money, then fuck 'em.

Remember when Toriyama fought tooth and nail to make Goku grow up, even though that would potentially hurt sales? Now it feels like everybody is scared of pushing this franchise forward.

[Vice]

Well, since you could have just not said anything at all but specifically chose to call a pairing of two male characters as 'gross', I'm not going to feel bad about telling you to go fuck yourself lol.

How about you don't go immediately to judgment mode and converse like an adult? I can find shit absolutely unappealing, doesn't make it a hate crime. Grow up

[Vegeta th3 4th]

1- Set it after the end of Z. Obviously no one's ever going to go beyond this point for whatever reason, but that's the first step in fixing this and other modern DB stories. It's one thing to set a 30 minute OVA in the past, but it just doesn't work with a series.

2- Do NOT turn the cast back into kids. What's Toei's obsession with turning Goku back into a kid ? It didn't work in GT, it's not working here. The only reason the backlash wasn't as bad was because of the "Toriyama = good" mindset so many fans have.

3- Make the demon realm a dangerous place. If you're going to call something the demon realm, I expect actual threats and danger to be present at all times. But no, they just had to "subvert expectations", resulting in so much potential being wasted.

Daima, just like Super and GT before it, suffers from bad execution of a great idea. We've gotten over 15 new stories since the original manga and its anime adaption ended back in 1995, and it pains me to say that the best way to fix Daima and the franchise as a whole is to let it end already. Outside of 2013's Battle of Gods movie, we've gotten very little value out of these revival/continuation attempts.

[Yuji]

I'm not trying to be super negative or anything, but why would you think these three characters are popular enough to carry 20 episodes of an almost assuredly mid show?

Because this show, by design, is mid. If you have other characters that better suit the tone and stakes, use them, rather than waste or denigrate the existing cast. I don’t understand why everything Dragon Ball has to be the big blockbuster continuation of the main story. What's wrong with spin-offs? Dragon Ball seems to be the only fanbase averse to it. Not every show needs to make a gajillion bucks. Sometimes people just want to tell stories. I have no issue with Toriyama wanting to tell this baby story, my issue is with the cast he chose.

Also, not sure where you got the idea that the Gohan movie flopped. It is the 2nd highest grossing film and pretty close to Broly. The Superhero prequel chapters with Goten and Trunks were fairly successful on their own too.

[Vice]

Because this show, by design, is mid. If you have other characters that better suit the tone and stakes, use them, rather than waste or denigrate the existing cast. I don’t understand why everything Dragon Ball has to be the big blockbuster continuation of the main story. What's wrong with spin-offs? Dragon Ball seems to be the only fanbase averse to it. Not every show needs to make a gajillion bucks. Sometimes people just want to tell stories. I have no issue with Toriyama wanting to tell this baby story, my issue is with the cast he chose.

At the end of the day, this is a business and the end goal of the studio is to make money. It's already hard enough to sell a GT clone to the masses with a cast that the fanbase already likes, but to do so with a cast generally nobody cares about would make that task a thousand times harder. Good luck asking a studio to forego profit for the sake of experimentation when they're already taking a risk experimenting with ripping off GT in the first place.

Also, not sure where you got the idea that the Gohan movie flopped. It is the 2nd highest grossing film and pretty close to Broly. The Superhero prequel chapters with Goten and Trunks were fairly successful on their own too.

I would argue that Super Hero was Piccolo's movie, but I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking about the part of the manga where he attempted to replace Goku as the main character for Gohan and it didn't work

Also, not sure how you can quantity individual chapters of a manga being successful or not when manga is sold in volumes and not chapters on their own. Are the readership numbers for individual chapters even tallied?

[FinalForumPodcast]

You can do a lot in twenty episodes, you just have to have a plot and character arcs that you want to explore. Dragon Ball Daima has none of those things, so the twenty episodes come across as meandering with little in the way of exploring the world in a significant way or that exploration reflecting back on the characters and their growth.

Well yeah. They admitted they started production before the story was finished. Not a good way to go about telling a story.

[Hulk10]

Give the Daima version of SSJ$ forearm fur.

[Basaku]

Now even more than before I wish this was a Goten, Trunks, Marron and Dende show. Literally the whole cast that was needed, already looking like a kid version of the old cast and filling the same role archetypes (just gender swapped for some).

Goten (and maybe Trunks too) gets recanonized SSJ4, at the end the kids get memory wiped and regain it somehow later in Black Freeza arc/post-EOZ, bringing back all the stuff from the Demon Realm (including SSJ4 as Goten/Trunks' unique form) and getting an instant power-boost the moment it would be narratively needed. Which wouldn't even be an asspull, as it would be a memory restore of the stuff that actually happened before and all the experience they got in the Demon Realm. And Dende and Marron would get to be relevant again too as adults. And we wouldn't rehash Goku turned into a kid again and again. And Goten & Trunks would get far more established along with their SuperHero prologue stuff from Toyo as future leads.

Love that SSJ4 was recanonized, but man Daima is still yet another example of Dragon Ball missing golden oppurtunities that present themselves

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Now even more than before I wish this was a Goten, Trunks, Marron and Dende show.

You want to deny me Ssj3 Vegeta ?

With that said, we really need to move past the end of Z and put the focus on newer characters, with Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc... taking on mentor roles.

Goten (and maybe Trunks too) gets recanonized SSJ4...

Those two shouldn't have gotten Ssj1 the way they did, much less be handed Ssj4. I don't even think Vegeta should get it, and he's my favorite character. Goku should have something exclusive to him, and Ssj4 fits that perfectly.

[Basaku]

Those two shouldn't have gotten Ssj1 the way they did, much less be handed Ssj4. I don't even think Vegeta should get it, and he's my favorite character. Goku should have something exclusive to him, and Ssj4 fits that perfectly.

Goku literally had SSJ4 handed to him by Neva in a full-on 100% asspull... And like I said - Goten and Trunks wouldn't even get it back till at least Black Freeza arc when the memories would get restored...

Also... Goku needs something exclusive to him???

What???

He pokemoned every. single. transformation. in. the. show's. history. He gets 99% of the forms first while the rest of the cast never gets any of it or waits ages. HE HAS ULTRA INSTINCT EXCLUSIVE TO HIM. He has 99% of the screentime already as it is

Never ceases to amaze me little awareness Goku and Vegeta fans have sometimes. Sorry if it sounds mean but... literally what else can be said when someone says "Goten and Trunks shouldn't have SSJ4 handed to them, but Goku should have it handed to him because he's very neglected and doesn't get enough transformations and exclusive forms"...

[Yuji]

Goku has Ultra Instinct which is the best possible form anyone could ever give him thematically. He's a martial artist from Earth. It is the perfect form for him and I hope he never gets anything stronger, only progressively better mastery of it.

I don't think any cast member really fits SS4. It's a bit of a fish-out-of-water form. I would have said Vegeta, but he has Ultra Ego. I would have said Broly, but he is the legendary Super Saiyan. The U6 Saiyans don't even have tails.

I think the one Saiyan I could see fit SS4 is Bardock, actually, but I also find the idea of bringing back Bardock and making him super strong incredibly icky, so I don't know.

It should have gone to a completely unique character. It's even more out of place now that it was introduced, chronologically, 10 arcs ago and is outdated by 4 transformations. It serves Goku no narrative or thematic purpose and cynically feels like it was included only to sell toys.

I guess since the Granolah arc is all about Vegeta failing to use UE properly because he can't revert back to a destruction mindset, he could discard the form and lean into the primal nature of SS4 more.