Unpopular DB opinions

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Unpopular opinion, Toriyama left to his own devices sans editors was not a very good writer.

Super has proven this to be a fact. Classic DB was a success due to the collaboration of Toriyama, his editors, and the anime's producers. All three came together to make something great, and chances are that greatness wouldn't have been achieved if one of those three wasn't in the mix. Daima, although not as badly written as Super, was in desperate need of a 2nd or even 3rd pair of eyes to iron out its issues.

[BernardoCairo]

Unpopular opinion, Toriyama left to his own devices sans editors was not a very good writer.

Super has proven this to be a fact. Classic DB was a success due to the collaboration of Toriyama, his editors, and the anime's producers. All three came together to make something great, and chances are that greatness wouldn't have been achieved if one of those three wasn't in the mix.

Honestly, I think that's nonsense. Yes, the original Dragon Ball manga was a collaborative effort, but it was Toriyama himself who wrote the chapters and developed most of the story. Editors like Torishima provided valuable input, offering suggestions and even contributing great ideas. However, Toriyama often challenged their expectations and subverted conventions in his own way.
Regarding the anime producers, they had little to no influence on the production of the manga.
Super doesn’t really prove anything. Toriyama barely "wrote" it. He came out of retirement only to provide the anime staff and Toyotaro with general ideas. What they did with those ideas was entirely up to them.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Honestly, I think that's nonsense. Yes, the original Dragon Ball manga was a collaborative effort, but it was Toriyama himself who wrote the chapters and developed most of the story.

Toriyama was undoubtedly the captain of the ship, but even the best captains need advisors and navigators. The problem with the modern material is that there was no one willing to provide Toriyama with constructive input.

Regarding the anime producers, they had little to no influence on the production of the manga.

True, but that didn't stop them from making changes in the anime where it was needed, resulting in certain parts of the story being better in the anime.

[Zephyr]

Regarding "Toriyama with editors vs. Toriyama without editors", it's a lot more complicated than "good when editors, bad when not". Apparently his last editor during the comic's original run, Fuyuto Takeda, who held the position roughly from Cell becoming Perfect through the end of the story, was incredibly hands off. So, unless you're including the Cell Games and the Boo arc in the "see what happens when Toriyama isn't reigned in?" argument, then some re-evaluation of the argument is in order.

On the other hand, the Cell arc prior to the Cell Games, under Kondo (apparently much more hands-on than Takeda), was especially messy. You'd need to argue that, actually, Trunks' future somehow being so bleak (despite all kinds of things that could have been done), Trunks' frequently changing reasons for traveling to the past in the first place, Cell's random mystery-dispelling exposition-dump, and more, are actually examples of terrific writing. Without doing that, some re-evaluation of the argument is in order.

Finally, there is a difference between merely coming up with ideas for others to execute and having to actually execute ideas yourself. We don't know how bad we might find ideas from the original run if they were executed through someone else's hands. We don't know how good we might find ideas from the revival era if they were executed through Toriyama's hand. Maybe we'd still have the same opinions about both sets of ideas, but we shouldn't pretend that we can know what we would think, and use that to support a judgment call on Toriyama with vs. without oversight.

Not to mention that the revival era, much like the original run, has a collaborative aspect to it. If Toriyama's ideas were executed the way he'd envisioned, then the Black arc, for example, would have played out very differently. But they weren't! So the notion that the revival era is an example of "Toriyama being left to his own devices" isn't even a true premise to be reasoning from.

I'd say a better line of thinking is, who does Toriyama work best with? We know that Torishima, the man who discovered Toriyama and was his editor through the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, rejected a ton of his stuff. He's told Toriyama that we wouldn't have had the messy time travel stuff if he was still the editor. We also know that Toriyama was thinking of some of the Freeza stuff during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, leading me to believe that at least some of the Namek storyline was devised through collaboration with Torishima. Obviously it was executed under Kondo's tenure, but putting two and two together leads to the conclusion that Torishima's hands were in it somewhere during the early planning stages. Further, it's worth acknowledging just how popular the Namek arc was, and just how widespread the belief is that Dragon Ball peaked in quality there. In other words, Dragon Ball was at its strongest when Toriyama and Torishima were collaborating. Which is very different from "Toriyama and somebody, anybody, collaborating".

To put another way: clearly there were a lot more yes-men in the revival era than there were during, say, the Piccolo Daimao arc. But there were more yes-man in the Cell and Boo arcs than in the Daimao arc as well!

For me, the main issue with them is that they didn’t wish for more power, they wished to be the strongest. This sets a bad precedent where anyone could make the same wish and become unbeatable. But I guess the point was that, unlike Piccolo’s, their wish was shallow and selfish, which ultimately led to their defeat and, in Gas’s case, his demise.

That's fair. The main caveat that keeps it from bothering me that much is the Monkey's Paw element to it, where they're drastically shortening their lifespan as a result of it. There's also the "except for gods" caveat that keeps them from getting stronger than, say, Zeno, with a mere wish; but that has a built-in workaround, insofar as a non-god could become stronger than Zeno through other means, so it's not completely foolproof.

[BernardoCairo]

Toriyama was undoubtedly the captain of the ship, but even the best captains need advisors and navigators.

I agree with this 100%! But the issue is that Toriyama wasn't the one actually writing Super. He was just coming up with ideas. Modern Dragon Ball really needs a true captain to guide the story forward. It could be Toyotaro, or someone else.

True, but that didn't stop them from making changes in the anime where it was needed, resulting in certain parts of the story being better in the anime.

This might be an unpopular opinion in itself, but I don’t think there’s a single arc in the anime that’s better, especially in Dragon Ball Z.
However, the original Dragon Ball anime is really good. I especially like Goku's wedding at the end and other filler content, even if some of it contradicts the broader DB lore, like Dr. Flappe or the origin of the Dragon Balls themselves.

[BernardoCairo]

The main caveat that keeps it from bothering me that much is the Monkey's Paw element to it, where they're drastically shortening their lifespan as a result of it.

This works really well for Gas, as we see him essentially losing his life during the battle. But Granolah? It’s easy to forget that he only has three years left to live now. It's funny to think about it actually.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This might be an unpopular opinion in itself, but I don’t think there’s a single arc in the anime that’s better, especially in Dragon Ball Z.

The Saiyan arc benefited from Gohan getting extra screen time to develop, and most of the training scenes were very well handled. The Buu arc benefited from certain character moments that were absent in the manga and the extended fight scenes. The Namek arc...we won't speak of.

[MasenkoHA]

Oh we’re back to do this again?

Unpopular opinion, Toriyama left to his own devices sans editors was not a very good writer. Character designs in general remain timeless regardless of story.

I believe he’s an ideas and concepts guy, not necessarily make great literary connections and themes type.

Counterargument: This is true of pretty much every writer ever not just Toriyama. This is why editors exist. Why screenplays have script doctors. Why you'll hear of shows going down in quality when a showrunner is given more freedom etc.

[JulieYBM]

Oh we’re back to do this again?

Unpopular opinion, Toriyama left to his own devices sans editors was not a very good writer. Character designs in general remain timeless regardless of story.

I believe he’s an ideas and concepts guy, not necessarily make great literary connections and themes type.

Counterargument: This is true of pretty much every writer ever not just Toriyama. This is why editors exist. Why screenplays have script doctors. Why you'll hear of shows going down in quality when a showrunner is given more freedom etc.

Speaking as a writer myself, I definitely feel like it's easier to write The Good Shit when I have someone to serve an editor function to bounce ideas off of and not just say 'yes', so I agree with this.

[MasenkoHA]

Oh we’re back to do this again?

Unpopular opinion, Toriyama left to his own devices sans editors was not a very good writer. Character designs in general remain timeless regardless of story.

I believe he’s an ideas and concepts guy, not necessarily make great literary connections and themes type.

Counterargument: This is true of pretty much every writer ever not just Toriyama. This is why editors exist. Why screenplays have script doctors. Why you'll hear of shows going down in quality when a showrunner is given more freedom etc.

Speaking as a writer myself, I definitely feel like it's easier to write The Good Shit when I have someone to serve an editor function to bounce ideas off of and not just say 'yes', so I agree with this.

Right. Even getting a second opinion from a friend is better than assuming your ideas are great and don't need to be challenge. Editors BAD or Toriyama is only good when editors is pure black and white thinking.

This might be an unpopular opinion in itself, but I don’t think there’s a single arc in the anime that’s better, especially in Dragon Ball Z.
However, the original Dragon Ball anime is really good. I especially like Goku's wedding at the end and other filler content, even if some of it contradicts the broader DB lore, like Dr. Flappe or the origin of the Dragon Balls themselves.

The anime version of the Daimao arc mitigates the blatant deus ex machina nature of the Super God Water by turning it into a quest instead of something Karin had in his pantry. It also does a better job of showing the mazoku terrorize mankind iirc

The Saiyan arc fleshed out Gohan's character and growth better in the anime as well. He felt more like an idea than a character in the manga version.

There's also little things I enjoy being expanded on like Colonel Violet or the Great Saiyaman stuff

[BernardoCairo]

The Saiyan arc benefited from Gohan getting extra screen time to develop, and most of the training scenes were very well handled. The Buu arc benefited from certain character moments that were absent in the manga and the extended fight scenes. The Namek arc...we won't speak of.

I don't really care much about Gohan's training in the anime. It's actually pretty bonkers. But I agree, some of the fights in the anime version of the Boo arc are really cool. Goku Super Saiyajin 2 vs Majin Vegeta comes to mind, even though I understand why it's shorter in the manga.
As for the Namek and Androids arcs... The entire Freeza saga is so perfect in the manga, fun from beginning to end. Then they did that to it in the anime. It's still good because it's the Namek arc, but damn...

[BernardoCairo]

The anime version of the Daimao arc mitigates the blatant deus ex machina nature of the Super God Water by turning it into a quest instead of something Karin had in his pantry. It also does a better job of showing the mazoku terrorize mankind iirc

Overall, I think OG Dragon Ball is the best anime adaptation by far. It had some fun additions, even if not every single one was a win. I especially love the Jingle Village and Colonel Silver materials.

[JulieYBM]

The anime version of the Tournament of Power is better because it's gayer (and you can track an actual arc for Kale and Caulifla there, too). This is to say nothing of how gay the final combination between Gokuu, Freeza and #17 is in Episode #131.

I'm also seconding MasenkoHA on the case of the Daimaou arc. It feels bigger in scale in the anime.

[MasenkoHA]

The anime version of the Daimao arc mitigates the blatant deus ex machina nature of the Super God Water by turning it into a quest instead of something Karin had in his pantry. It also does a better job of showing the mazoku terrorize mankind iirc

Overall, I think OG Dragon Ball is the best anime adaptation by far. It had some fun additions, even if not every single one was a win. I especially love the Jingle Village and Colonel Silver materials.

Agreed though I think it helped the anime started like 14 months after the manga so most of the original content designed to expand on the material could be creative. By the time they got to the Z portion they were so close to caught up with to the manga they had to create more pointless padding out of necessity.

[WittyUsername]

The anime version of the Tournament of Power is better because it's gayer (and you can track an actual arc for Kale and Caulifla there, too). This is to say nothing of how gay the final combination between Gokuu, Freeza and #17 is in Episode #131.

I'm also seconding MasenkoHA on the case of the Daimaou arc. It feels bigger in scale in the anime.

To me, the manga version of the ToP weirdly has the opposite problem of the anime. Whereas the anime version drags on for far too long, the manga version is pretty barebones, to the point where a bunch of the eliminations either happen offscreen or via Kale’s rampage. With that said, I do prefer how Jiren is handled in the manga, even if that isn’t saying much. He’s still a standoffish jerk, but in a less cliche way than the anime, and unlike the anime, the manga actually explains why he wants the Super Dragon Balls.

[JulieYBM]

The anime version of the Tournament of Power is better because it's gayer (and you can track an actual arc for Kale and Caulifla there, too). This is to say nothing of how gay the final combination between Gokuu, Freeza and #17 is in Episode #131.

I'm also seconding MasenkoHA on the case of the Daimaou arc. It feels bigger in scale in the anime.

To me, the manga version of the ToP weirdly has the opposite problem of the anime. Whereas the anime version drags on for far too long, the manga version is pretty barebones, to the point where a bunch of the eliminations either happen offscreen or via Kale’s rampage. With that said, I do prefer how Jiren is handled in the manga, even if that isn’t saying much. He’s still a standoffish jerk, but in a less cliche way than the anime, and unlike the anime, the manga actually explains why he wants the Super Dragon Balls.

I think the issue with the Tournament of Power arc in the anime—besides having no time and animators—is also that it doesn't break up the action enough to do flashbacks to flesh out the characters more. I probably wouldn't aim to do a, what, 34 episode tournament arc, but damn, they might as well have made a 48 episode fight that covers a minute per episode and then used that extra runtime for flashbacks and character arcs.

I can't remember Jiren from the manga, but I love how pathetic he is in the anime. Really makes me want to beat the shit out of him lol

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Here's a thought that may or may not be popular: Adult Goku's Ssj4 in Daima is the strongest Ssj form, both in terms of looks and actual power. As far as looks go, it puts all those recolors we've been getting since 2013 to shame. This looks like a form that can actually get shit done, unlike those crayons Super has that fail in nearly every fight. As far as power goes, it shook the entire demon realm. That's an upgrade from Ssj3 shaking planet earth. GT's Ssj4 and Super's color box told us they were stronger than Ssj3, but they never actually demonstrated it. This is honestly the very first time I've seen a new form stronger than Ssj3. With that said, this will all mean nothing if it doesn't get the job done next week, so fingers crossed they stick the landing.

[SupremeKai25]

Here's a thought that may or may not be popular: Adult Goku's Ssj4 in Daima is the strongest Ssj form, both in terms of looks and actual power. As far as looks go, it puts all those recolors we've been getting since 2013 to shame. This looks like a form that can actually get shit done, unlike those crayons Super has that fail in nearly every fight. As far as power goes, it shook the entire demon realm. That's an upgrade from Ssj3 shaking planet earth. GT's Ssj4 and Super's color box told us they were stronger than Ssj3, but they never actually demonstrated it. This is honestly the very first time I've seen a new form stronger than Ssj3. With that said, this will all mean nothing if it doesn't get the job done next week, so fingers crossed they stick the landing.

So your hot take is that SSJ4 is better than the "recolours"? (funny how that was never a problem with those weird "grades" stuff or whatever from the old childhood show, those were badass)

Wow, daring today aren't we?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

So your hot take is that SSJ4 is better than the recolours?

I think Daima's looks better than both the recolors and GT's Ssj4, at least on adult Goku.

Wow, daring today aren't we?

I'm agreeing with you for once; take the win.

[SupremeKai25]

So your hot take is that SSJ4 is better than the recolours?

I think Daima's looks better than both the recolors and GT's Ssj4, at least on adult Goku.

Wow, daring today aren't we?

I'm agreeing with you for once; take the win.

Well, no, you aren't, because I actually think the "recolours" are better than SSJ4.

Now that is a hot take to have.

Hmm, what can I say that would ever convince you of my position?

Argument no.1: I don't see the "recolours" as more asspullish than any form that came before it.

Goku trained off-screen for 7 years and got a new form = good writing

Goku trained off-screen for weeks/months with Lord Beerus and Whis the Angel and got a new form = bad writing

Black trained off-screen for an entire year, and he's also a god, so he got a new form = bad writing

I wonder what the Buu saga did so much better than Super. Aside from coming out 20 years earlier, that is.

Argument no.2: Visually, I don't need all those weird hair modifications, magical trousers, emo eyeliners, and whatever to enjoy a new form. I like the Super forms because 1) the colours are pretty 2) the modern CGI aura stuff they do is pretty 3) in the simplicity of the design, they convey the elegance of the gods, as there is elegance in simplicity.

Plus, SSJ1 looks like that only because Toriyama/his assistant were tired of colouring the Saiyan hair. Yet that's = good writing, but when Super recolours stuff, it's bad writing?