Rank the various arcs of the franchise

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I wouldn't exactly call them rushed, given the show's absurd time of pre-production.

I mean rushed within the show, not that they ran out of production time. They seemed to prioritize things that shouldn't have taken priority over aspects such as Glorio's character arc. We spent an entire time fighting goons and being stuck on a giant planet, while Degusu got taken out in one hit.

[AliTheZombie13]

I wouldn't exactly call them rushed, given the show's absurd time of pre-production.

I mean rushed within the show, not that they ran out of production time. They seemed to prioritize things that shouldn't have taken priority over aspects such as Glorio's character arc. We spent an entire time fighting goons and being stuck on a giant planet, while Degusu got taken out in one hit.

Well, that's what I meant by "bad execution."
Semantics at play here.

[BernardoCairo]

Agree to disagree here, I like the first half of the Baby Arc.

People complain about the lighthearted episodes of Daima, but the early episodes of GT are just as bad, if not worse. They fail to capture the magic of Dragon Ball’s first arc and end up being dull to sit through. Without Toriyama's sense of adventure and comedy, this kind of arc loses the essence that makes it special.

The problem is that no one out of U7 and U6 are loved.

I see your point. But the story wasn’t really about making us care for every team in the tournament (that would be impossible). Instead, it was meant to celebrate the Universe 7 characters we know and tell a story about them working together.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I see your point. But the story wasn’t really about making us care for every team in the tournament (that would be impossible).

It would've been possible had there been half the number of universes and had said universes been introduced previously. U6 was already established, so they could've introduced some fighters from U10 during the Zamasu arc, then have the tournament of power be between universes 6,7,10,&11.

[AliTheZombie13]

Agree to disagree here, I like the first half of the Baby Arc.

People complain about the lighthearted episodes of Daima, but the early episodes of GT are just as bad, if not worse. They fail to capture the magic of Dragon Ball’s first arc and end up being dull to sit through. Without Toriyama's sense of adventure and comedy, this kind of arc loses the essence that makes it special.

This is where me and "people" differ: I don't give a flying fuck about the Toriyama Charm™.
I enjoyed it, that's all that matters to me.

That is not to say I don't like the things Toriyama does, the very first arc is still the top for me in the entire franchise. It just means I'm open to other stuff without letting "Ugh, Toriyama didn't write this!" blind my judgement.

[Yuji]

GT's first arc, outside of just being boring, uninspired and incoherent, is just in general way too weird, way too often about Pan. DB's Pilaf arc was also weird about Bulma, and that was also wrong, but, like, in context of serialization in Japan 40 years ago, it's at least understandable how that could be socially passable. She's a 16 year old that already leverages her sexuality to get her way, she's not a 10-year old child.

[BernardoCairo]

This is where me and "people" differ: I don't give a flying fuck about the Toriyama Charm™.

Good for you! But that wasn’t my point at all. I was simply saying that GT’s first arc was designed to emulate something ("Toriyama’s Charm™", as you put it) and it failed completely. I never said it wasn’t good just because Toriyama didn’t write it, that’s on you.
Now, it’s funny how people criticize Daima for its lighthearted episodes but have no problem when GT does the same thing. I guess we tend to overlook certain flaws when we’re fans of something.

It would've been possible had there been half the number of universes and had said universes been introduced previously.

I think they needed such a large number of universes to build both tension (this is the end of the entire multiverse, as far as we know) and to expand the scope of the tournament, turning it into a true battle royal. I’m not saying it was the best decision, but I can understand why they went that route.

[AliTheZombie13]

For the sake of clarity: I don't enjoy the pedo vibes either.

I could write entire paragraphs here about the strengths of that arc, but MistareFusion already dissected GT way better than I ever could, and made sure to highlight the show's positives without denying its negatives. He also doesn't like the show very much.

Why I like GT's first half, while I abhor Daima's, is the simple fact that GT is at least trying to tell a story that isn't a carbon copy of the first arc. Daima, however, isn't interested in doing anything that isn't putting the good guys in one fight scene after another to showcase some fanservice transformation. Things like this, for example, don't exist in Daima:



You may argue it's melodramatic and doesn't fit DB, but I would struggle to call it bad.
I won't force anybody to agree with my views, but I sure as hell don't think that arc is as awful as everyone says.

[BernardoCairo]

I won't force anybody to agree with my views, but I sure as hell don't think that arc is as awful as everyone says.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. My point is this: Daima is trying to tell a story. Is it flawed? Yes. But so is GT's. To say Daima has nothing to offer is the same as saying those GT episodes have no substance. I’m able to criticize Daima while still acknowledging the reality, just like I can do the same for GT. Saying it tries to recapture Toriyama's charm and fails is a fair criticism, as is saying it's mostly boring.
Is it all horrible? No. Personally, I don't care for Pan much and think they could've done more with her in these first few episodes. But I like Trunks and his struggle to meet people's expectations. That said, I consider it one of the weaker arcs of the franchise and the second worst of GT. That doesn't mean I hate it.

[AliTheZombie13]

Once again: Agree to disagree.
I think GT at least explores its concepts.
Daima doesn't outside of some blink and you miss moments that have no weight.
All in all, I vibe better with Pan's arc of growing into a better person than Pansy... doing... whatever she wanted to do in Daima.

[Zephyr]

To say Daima wasn't trying to tell a story is just being obtuse for the sake of it. The latest episode gave the game away when it had a heartfelt rendition of the main theme play as Glorio looked at his new group of family and friends. They tried to tell a story about Glorio, and simply did a really bad job with it.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

All in all, I vibe better with Pan's arc of growing into a better person...

I never understood the hate Pan got in GT. She may not have been the best character, but overall I think she was well written.

[AliTheZombie13]

To say Daima wasn't trying to tell a story is just being obtuse for the sake of it. The latest episode gave the game away when it had a heartfelt rendition of the main theme play as Glorio looked at his new group of family and friends. They tried to tell a story about Glorio, and simply did a really bad job with it.

This ^

[BernardoCairo]

I think GT at least explores its concepts.
Daima doesn't outside of some blink and you miss moments that have no weight.

I don't think there's much difference, to be honest. GT has ideas, but it never takes the time to fully explore them. We're constantly moving to the next thing, to the point that it eventually adopts the "monster of the week" format. Even Pan, whom you mentioned, never reached her full potential. She was relegated to the role of damsel in distress for much of the story and kept having to relearn the same "lessons" over and over again.
It's like Vegeta th3 4th said: good ideas, bad execution.

This ^

Exactly. It is trying to tell a story. It's just flawed, like GT and Super. That's my point.

[AliTheZombie13]

To each their own, I don't think any portion of this franchise whatsoever was ever well written or well executed after Namek.
"Good ideas, bad execution" is kind of the norm now.

[BernardoCairo]

The Androids arc and, to a lesser extent, the Boo arc are both solid in my opinion. I don’t think Cell’s story is inherently bad. Some people praise it while others dislike it, but the truth is somewhere in between. The journey to surpass Super Saiyajin, the relationships between Goku and Gohan, and Vegeta and Trunks, as well as the concept of Cell as a twisted version of Goku, are all interesting elements. I wouldn’t call it bad by any means. The Boo arc, of course, also provides great conclusions to both Goku and Vegeta’s arcs.

[AliTheZombie13]

My big problem with them is that "Let's pass the torch to the new generation" and "Vegeta is learning to let go of his Kakarottophobia" is hammered down so many times and never sticks. Your threshold might vary, but the problem you seem to have with Pan might be comparable to the problem I have with Goku and Vegeta in these two arcs and beyond.

For example, Goku going, "Nah, I could've defeated Boo with SSJ3, but I wanted to pass the torch to the new generation!"
Then it ends up he has to defeat Boo, after all, and didn't intend to pass anything.
Then the ending comes, and he's talking about that all over again... AFTER already neglecting his "staying dead" shtick to let Gohan handle things.

Things like that is what I mean when I say, "No part of this franchise is well-written after Namek."
At this point, I'm just trying to enjoy things in a Power Rangers way. I know it's dumb, I know it's written like shit, but I'm trying to like it.
And I did end up liking some of it. GT, BoG, Super Hero, etc, are all fine in my book.

[Zephyr]

I don't think that the kids failing to defeat Boo and Goku needing to do it meant that he hadn't intended for the kids to do it.

I don't think that Goku needing to come back to life in order to go and (try to) save Gohan means he "neglected" his "staying dead" "shtick".

[AliTheZombie13]

Yes, but you know well where the story was going, before slamming on the breaks and making a detour back into safe territory.

[BernardoCairo]

Your threshold might vary, but the problem you seem to have with Pan might be comparable to the problem I have with Goku and Vegeta in these two arcs and beyond.

If we focus on these two arcs alone, as the final parts of the manga, I believe Goku and Vegeta aren't as flawed as they may initially seem.
Vegeta does regress, but this is an important part of his character arc. After witnessing Goku at the tournament, he reverts to his old ways, abandoning the values he had come to cherish during his time on Earth. However, this regression is mostly superficial, as Goku points out. Vegeta has already changed and can't truly go back. Vegeta himself recognizes this and sacrifices his life twice, embracing redemption for his past actions.
As for Goku, he consistently entrusts the future to the younger generation, only stepping in when there are no other options left. In the end, he doesn't defeat Majin Boo by himself. Instead, he relies on the bonds he has forged throughout the story, along with the people of Earth whom he has saved countless times. In doing so, he overcomes his final challenge. Moreover, he asks for Boo’s reincarnation as a good person, providing a resolution to one of Goku’s most significant internal conflicts: whether to spare or kill. With Freeza, Goku learned that some individuals are beyond redemption, but with Boo, he finds a way to not waste any "potential", as he puts it. That, of course, also leads perfectly into him preparing the next generation (Oob), even if part of it is driven by his own selfish desires.

Dragon Ball is the story of Son Goku meeting people and changing their lives. In turn, these same people lend him a hand in the end. He didn’t just show up to defeat the enemy in the end. The people of Earth saved him and Vegeta.