Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

The Tamagamis are still stronger than Dabra. They didn't get hundreds or thousands of times weaker for their base selves > their SS3/4 kids selves, unless you wanna make the argument that they'd defeat Dabra in base form as adults now.

I thought by this point we would have learned not to put any stock into base Saiyan performances.

Agreed. Unless we’re seriously arguing that Base Goku or Vegeta could now beat Dabra or even the Tamagamis, it’s best not to overanalyze base Saiyan feats in these cases.

But we clearly see base Vegeta hurt Giant Gomah while SS4 Mini Goku gets swatted away by him. What's more, the King of the 3rd Demon World is impressed by his strength even after witnessing SS4 Mini Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

The Tamagamis are still stronger than Dabra. They didn't get hundreds or thousands of times weaker for their base selves > their SS3/4 kids selves, unless you wanna make the argument that they'd defeat Dabra in base form as adults now.

I thought by this point we would have learned not to put any stock into base Saiyan performances.

Agreed. Unless we’re seriously arguing that Base Goku or Vegeta could now beat Dabra or even the Tamagamis, it’s best not to overanalyze base Saiyan feats in these cases.

But we clearly see base Vegeta hurt Giant Gomah while SS4 Mini Goku gets swatted away by him. What's more, the King of the 3rd Demon World is impressed by his strength even after witnessing SS4 Mini Goku.

SS4 Mini Goku took a massive hit to the face that should’ve knocked him out, but he still mustered the strength to fire one last Kamehameha. He was already running on fumes by that point, so it’s not really fair to compare his performance to a fresh Base Vegeta. As for King Kadan’s comment, I don’t see why it should matter. Gomah wasn’t even fighting seriously yet.

[QuakingStar]

Let's think about it. By the time of age 778, Goku in SS can defeat SPCell in like one hit, and is confident in taking on Kid Buu. We see this in his mental training(where he adds the opponent as strong as they actually were, since that's how it works.)

Daima is in 775 and Bulma revealed that Vegeta had been training for 6 months alone right before the events of Daima begin, which is how he gets SS3. He was already tied with Goku when both were SS2 in the Buu Saga, after his Majin perma-amp. So we know they are stronger than their Buu Arc selves, but weaker than their Age 778 selves.

[Yuji]

The Tamagamis are still stronger than Dabra. They didn't get hundreds or thousands of times weaker for their base selves > their SS3/4 kids selves, unless you wanna make the argument that they'd defeat Dabra in base form as adults now.

I thought by this point we would have learned not to put any stock into base Saiyan performances.

Stronger than pre Majin Dabura over 300 years before the Boo arc.

I'm sure that wasn't the intention when they wrote the statement. Babidi's boost hasn't been historically that ridiculous, anyway.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t recall Goku fighting Super Perfect Cell in his mind, his fight against Kid Buu was interrupted before it even started, and the Freeza he fought wasn’t even at his strongest version. So there’s no reason to assume he was facing Super Perfect Cell rather than just a version of Perfect Cell at the level he fought 10 years ago.

Goku and Vegeta got stronger, sure, but the idea that their base forms became absurdly more powerful than their SS1/2/3/4 kid selves is a huge stretch. Even in Super, SS2 Future Trunks wasn’t that much stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan from the Cell Games, and he still fought SS2 Goku more than evenly. The jump people are suggesting here just doesn’t track.

[ZombieVito]

SS4 Mini Goku took a massive hit to the face that should’ve knocked him out, but he still mustered the strength to fire one last Kamehameha. He was already running on fumes by that point, so it’s not really fair to compare his performance to a fresh Base Vegeta. As for King Kadan’s comment, I don’t see why it should matter. Gomah wasn’t even fighting seriously yet.

The Kamehameha was not against giant Gomah and base Vegeta was not fresh. Piccolo says they didn't recover the damage they had after the wish.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Base Vegeta vs Gomah is definitely Toeism. They don't just have base Saiyans hold their own sometimes, there's cases of them flat out having the upperhand too. Movie 10 Gohan put up a real fight against Broly and performed better than the SSJ boys.

Vegeta isn't fresh, but he was out for most of the fight. I'm sure he's more in the tank than anyone else.

[QuakingStar]

I don’t recall Goku fighting Super Perfect Cell in his mind, his fight against Kid Buu was interrupted before it even started, and the Freeza he fought wasn’t even at his strongest version. So there’s no reason to assume he was facing Super Perfect Cell rather than just a version of Perfect Cell at the level he fought 10 years ago.

Goku and Vegeta got stronger, sure, but the idea that their base forms became absurdly more powerful than their SS1/2/3/4 kid selves is a huge stretch. Even in Super, SS2 Future Trunks wasn’t that much stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan from the Cell Games, and he still fought SS2 Goku more than evenly. The jump people are suggesting here just doesn’t track.

DBS Chapter 1. He is fighting Cell, who the last time he sensed Cell he sensed Cells power from the afterlife and knew that what Gohan had inside was still enough to beat him. He most definitely was using SPC in his mental training. He kills Frieza first on one blow, then he kills Cell in one blow after a few trade offs, then he is interrupted before he can fight Kid Buu.

You completely made up Future Trunks not being much stronger than SS2 Cell Games Gohan, all that Goku says is that is stronger than Gohan was back then, that's it. He goes on to tie SS2 Goku in a fight, then has a slight edge on SS3 Goku using his own enhanced SS2. This does not mean that he is "not much stronger than Gohan was" and if that is what you are saying then you are saying Goku is essentially the same strength he was in the Buu Saga with his base form and normal SS forms in the Goku Black Arc and that's just nonsense.

[miguelnuva1]

Base Vegeta vs Gomah is definitely Toeism. They don't just have base Saiyans hold their own sometimes, there's cases of them flat out having the upperhand too. Movie 10 Gohan put up a real fight against Broly and performed better than the SSJ boys.

Vegeta isn't fresh, but he was out for most of the fight. I'm sure he's more in the tank than anyone else.

More proof is Toei hax is Vegeta drops SS3 and still is fighting with Gomah.

Not to mention countless times the minis complain about bodies not power being decreased.

[ZombieVito]

Base Vegeta vs Gomah is definitely Toeism. They don't just have base Saiyans hold their own sometimes, there's cases of them flat out having the upperhand too. Movie 10 Gohan put up a real fight against Broly and performed better than the SSJ boys.

Vegeta isn't fresh, but he was out for most of the fight. I'm sure he's more in the tank than anyone else.

Fine but SS3 Vegeta was still stronger than SS4 Mini Goku so that should make the kid nerf whatever difference the forms have in multiplier.

You completely made up Future Trunks not being much stronger than SS2 Cell Games Gohan, all that Goku says is that is stronger than Gohan was back then, that's it. He goes on to tie SS2 Goku in a fight, then has a slight edge on SS3 Goku using his own enhanced SS2. This does not mean that he is "not much stronger than Gohan was" and if that is what you are saying then you are saying Goku is essentially the same strength he was in the Buu Saga with his base form and normal SS forms in the Goku Black Arc and that's just nonsense.

I will never understand the insistence of some people about this. Goku and Vegeta have trained with Whis for months + 3 years in the RoSaT. The anime has Copy Vegeta demolishing SS3 Gotenks in base and the manga has that Rumsshi roar scene that confirms base Goku is stronger than the Kaioshins. Putting him over the Super Saiyans in the Boo arc without any transformations.

Them staying on the same ballpark as their Boo arc selves is indeed nonsense.

[QuakingStar]

Base Vegeta vs Gomah is definitely Toeism. They don't just have base Saiyans hold their own sometimes, there's cases of them flat out having the upperhand too. Movie 10 Gohan put up a real fight against Broly and performed better than the SSJ boys.

Vegeta isn't fresh, but he was out for most of the fight. I'm sure he's more in the tank than anyone else.

Fine but SS3 Vegeta was still stronger than SS4 Mini Goku so that should make the kid nerf whatever difference the forms have in multiplier.

You completely made up Future Trunks not being much stronger than SS2 Cell Games Gohan, all that Goku says is that is stronger than Gohan was back then, that's it. He goes on to tie SS2 Goku in a fight, then has a slight edge on SS3 Goku using his own enhanced SS2. This does not mean that he is "not much stronger than Gohan was" and if that is what you are saying then you are saying Goku is essentially the same strength he was in the Buu Saga with his base form and normal SS forms in the Goku Black Arc and that's just nonsense.

I will never understand the insistence of some people about this. Goku and Vegeta have trained with Whis for months + 3 years in the RoSaT. The anime has Copy Vegeta demolishing SS3 Gotenks in base and the manga has that Rumsshi roar scene that confirms base Goku is stronger than the Kaioshins. Putting him over the Super Saiyans in the Boo arc without any transformations.

Them staying on the same ballpark as their Boo arc selves is indeed nonsense.

Exactly, we have Goku in Age 778 as a SS killing SPCell in one blow. The last time he sensed Cells power was when Cell returned to Earth as SPC so he would most definitely be using SPC in his training battle since he has been training since 774 to defeat Buu level threats and above.

[Yuji]

Shin is clearly not more physically durable/stronger than the base Saiyans as of Daima. This was already clear in the Boo arc, only we chose to ignore it. Whether this means Shin's overall BP is higher or lower is a different argument.

They're obviously way stronger than their Boo arc selves in the anime, but there's nothing indicating they got much stronger in the manga. The manga omits the SSG essence in base/SS scene, it repeatedly states they've reached their physical limits, compares a relative-to-current-Goku Trunks to Cell Games Gohan from 10 years back, and they barely train at all to get physically stronger (only to improve their forms), in fact Goku got rusty from Zamasu to the ToP due to a lack of training.

If Goku got over 50x stronger from Boo to the Zamasu arc, this means that the comparison made between Trunks and Gohan makes no sense and would have been useless. If you claim Goku got way stronger from Zamasu to ToP, then you're ignoring the entire point that the arc was kickstarted precisely because Goku was getting weaker. There's just no way you can make the argument they've got over 50x stronger in the same forms from the Boo arc.

Whether you want to believe the base Saiyans > Freeza or Shin, that's a separate argument, but they haven't really improved much from the Boo arc, the narrative subtext and text makes this abundantly clear.

[Hugo Boss]

The Kamehameha was not against giant Gomah and base Vegeta was not fresh. Piccolo says they didn't recover the damage they had after the wish.

My point is that after the Kamehameha, SS4 Mini Goku was too exhausted to continue fighting. Vegeta had the most energy left since everyone else took turns against Gomah. He even had enough to go SS3, which shows he recovered most of his stamina. So are we really saying Base Vegeta > Pre-Giant Gomah? That’s a wild take.

I will never understand the insistence of some people about this. Goku and Vegeta have trained with Whis for months + 3 years in the RoSaT. The anime has Copy Vegeta demolishing SS3 Gotenks in base and the manga has that Rumsshi roar scene that confirms base Goku is stronger than the Kaioshins. Putting him over the Super Saiyans in the Boo arc without any transformations.

Them staying on the same ballpark as their Boo arc selves is indeed nonsense.

I don’t get why you’re bringing anime stuff into a manga discussion. Base Goku was already stronger than Shin in the original Boo arc and is still stronger than Shin as a kid in Daima, so how exactly this proves Base Saiyans from DBS surpassed Super Saiyans from Boo arc?

DBS Chapter 1. He is fighting Cell, who the last time he sensed Cell he sensed Cells power from the afterlife and knew that what Gohan had inside was still enough to beat him. He most definitely was using SPC in his mental training. He kills Frieza first on one blow, then he kills Cell in one blow after a few trade offs, then he is interrupted before he can fight Kid Buu.

You completely made up Future Trunks not being much stronger than SS2 Cell Games Gohan, all that Goku says is that is stronger than Gohan was back then, that's it. He goes on to tie SS2 Goku in a fight, then has a slight edge on SS3 Goku using his own enhanced SS2. This does not mean that he is "not much stronger than Gohan was" and if that is what you are saying then you are saying Goku is essentially the same strength he was in the Buu Saga with his base form and normal SS forms in the Goku Black Arc and that's just nonsense.

You’re assuming Goku fought Super Perfect Cell with no real evidence. His Cell doesn’t even have the sparking SS2 aura that distinguishes SPC from regular Perfect Cell. That hardly even counts as a fight anyway. Goku himself only noted Future Trunks surpassed Kid Gohan after Trunks turned SS2. If his base or SS1 were stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan, that line would be meaningless.

They're obviously way stronger than their Boo arc selves in the anime, but there's nothing indicating they got much stronger in the manga. The manga omits the SSG essence in base/SS scene, it repeatedly states they've reached their physical limits, compares a relative-to-current-Goku Trunks to Cell Games Gohan from 10 years back, and they barely train at all to get physically stronger (only to improve their forms), in fact Goku got rusty from Zamasu to the ToP due to a lack of training.

That’s it. I don’t get why people insist that Base Goku (Super) has to be stronger than even Final Form Frieza, when in 10 years of training he never reached that level. His real gains come through the god forms, which already far surpass SS3. There’s no narrative purpose or evidence of their base forms leapfrogging everything in the manga continuity.

[Koitsukai]

Goku was daydreaming, I can't believe they are dismissing the only DBZ-DBS comparison(and a hell of a straightforward one) because it doesn't align with their bloated scaling*, while giving credit to Goku closing his eyes and pretending to beat up dead people.

Also surprised in people still taking at face value base form Toeisms. At this rate, base Goku oneshots SSG Vegeta.

*the type of bloated scaling that the franchise keeps debunking. Consensus about Shin now approaching that he is not as strong initially thought; Gohan was not SS2 vs Dabura; Piccolo not being SSB level vs Saganbo; Daima's wish did nerf their power.
The franchise is much more conservative than the fandom wants it to be.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Image training is NOT daydreaming lmao. This is as dumb as Goku saying meditation isn’t training.

How would Goku have noted SSJ Trunks > SSJ2 Gohan if Trunks never even went SSJ in the first place?

Given that SSJ2 is only twice as strong as SSJ, you’d have to think Goku has flat out stagnated if Gohan is closer to SSJ2 Trunks than he is to SSJ Trunks.

All this “they only train to improve their forms” talk makes it sound like you guys never even read/watched Dragon Ball. Not that “he trained so he surely surpassed Freeza” is even an argument, but Goku only goes beyond SSJ in the last saga. In the Cell Saga he’s getting stronger with plain old SSJ. This “improve your transformations” talk debuted with Super, and the series isn’t even that consistent about it - Whis insists that Goku and Vegeta train in base in the anime, and Goku greatly powers up training with Merus in the manga.

[Yuji]

Goku and Gohan trained their Super Saiyan forms in the Cell arc. Nothing tells us their base forms got significantly stronger post-ROSAT. It's merely conjecture because we assume multipliers are stagnant, rather than fluid.

[Koitsukai]

Image training is NOT daydreaming lmao. This is as dumb as Goku saying meditation isn’t training.

I really wouldn't call anybody dumb while also claiming Goku closing his eyes and pretending to oneshot people proves he is actually as strong as he is pretending to be. Specially, if the author, 3 arcs later, is providing a clear-cut comparison of similar forms that puts that non-sense to rest.

[Hugo Boss]

Image training is NOT daydreaming lmao. This is as dumb as Goku saying meditation isn’t training.

How would Goku have noted SSJ Trunks > SSJ2 Gohan if Trunks never even went SSJ in the first place?

Given that SSJ2 is only twice as strong as SSJ, you’d have to think Goku has flat out stagnated if Gohan is closer to SSJ2 Trunks than he is to SSJ Trunks.

All this “they only train to improve their forms” talk makes it sound like you guys never even read/watched Dragon Ball. Not that “he trained so he surely surpassed Freeza” is even an argument, but Goku only goes beyond SSJ in the last saga. In the Cell Saga he’s getting stronger with plain old SSJ. This “improve your transformations” talk debuted with Super, and the series isn’t even that consistent about it - Whis insists that Goku and Vegeta train in base in the anime, and Goku greatly powers up training with Merus in the manga.

I think you’re missing the point. Just one year before, Future Trunks was struggling against Dabra in his Super Saiyan form, and Dabra was far weaker than SS2 Kid Gohan. Even if Trunks got much stronger after multiple battles with Goku Black, the only form that saw a massive increase was his SS2 form. There’s no indication that his base or SS1 had skyrocketed past that level. That’s the main issue. Plus, Goku only commented on Future Trunks surpassing Kid Gohan after Trunks turned SS2. If his base or SS1 were already beyond SS2 Gohan, that statement would make no sense; it would be redundant.

As for the Cell Saga, yes, Goku improved his overall strength, but the focus of his training was on mastering Super Saiyan. His biggest gains were observable in his Super Saiyan form, just like how, in Super, his most significant gains come from godly transformations. No one is saying he didn’t improve at all in base, but where’s the evidence that his base form made a 50x jump past Final Form Freeza? That’s a massive leap with no real justification in the manga continuity.

The Merus training is one of the few times Goku explicitly focused on improving everything rather than just chasing the next transformation. Even then, a major part of his training was about getting accustomed to Ultra Instinct. If you’re looking for an example of base form growth, Vegeta on Yardrat is more fitting, but who does he fight in base? Some random Zarbon lookalike. That’s hardly enough to justify putting their base forms leagues above anything from Z.

And honestly, why bring up the anime in this discussion? Toei is responsible for most of the bloated base Saiyan scaling issues. The manga continuity doesn’t support the idea that base Goku is suddenly beyond Freeza after 10 years when his biggest power boosts always come through transformations.

[QuakingStar]

That's not how the mental image training worked. They showed it as a genuine training. It cannot be geniune training that makes one stronger if they are imagining a weaker version of whatever they are facing.

Anime continuity they get vastly stronger from the BoG Arc onwards.

Manga continuity it isn't stated how much stronger they are to be exact, but Goku 4 years after the Boo Saga takes out Cell as a SS in one attack. Whether you want to do mental gymnastics and say that it was only normal Perfect Cell or not it shows Goku is still stronger than he was in the Buu Saga. They claim in the U6 v U7 Saga that after 3 years of training they have hit their physical limits through training yet this is debunked when it is explicitly stated that Goku's body was not strong enough to use UI properly so Merus later trained him making his base vastly stronger while Vegeta's spirit control training makes him vastly stronger as well.

Shins PL is stated in Daizenshuu 7 to be far superior to Super Namekian Piccolo in the Buu Saga.. That spanish dragon ball guidebook from Bird Studio says that Shins PL is comparable to SS Goku from the Cell Games. No matter how you look at it, if Goku being stronger is the reason why he did not pass out unlike Shin, then at that moment Goku in base was above Buu Saga Super Namekian Piccolo, or Cell Saga SS Goku. You could say all of this was retconned at some points, sure. But then Goku guess what? DBSuper retconned Vegetas statement about not being able to get any stronger already.

Also, I swear a few of you even used that "Goku's body acclimated to SS so his base became 40x stronger, so now when he transforms into SS he only gets 10x stronger" or something. So that would directly contradict what you are implying too.

[ZombieVito]

I don’t get why you’re bringing anime stuff into a manga discussion. Base Goku was already stronger than Shin in the original Boo arc and is still stronger than Shin as a kid in Daima, so how exactly this proves Base Saiyans from DBS surpassed Super Saiyans from Boo arc?

Shin is stronger than Boo arc Piccolo, who is low Super Saiyan tier. No base Saiyan is touching him until after the BoG arc.