How would you fix Daima?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Goku literally had SSJ4 handed to him by Neva in a full-on 100% asspull...

I'm also not a fan of how he got it.

Also... Goku needs something exclusive to him??? What???

Goku is the strongest character in the show; he should have something to represent that strength.

HE HAS ULTRA INSTINCT EXCLUSIVE TO HIM.

Super isn't (as of now) connected to Daima.

Never ceases to amaze me little awareness Goku and Vegeta fans have sometimes.

I just said they should take a back seat to a new cast in a story set after the end of Z. Goku getting Ssj4 and Vegeta getting Ssj3 should be the end of their journey as the main characters.

What else can be said when someone says "Goten and Trunks shouldn't have SSJ4 handed to them, but Goku should have it handed to him because he's very neglected and doesn't get enough transformations and exclusive forms"...

Goku is the leader of the group; the person everyone looks to when things get tough. If there's one character deserving of the title "Super Saiyan 4", it's him. If I don't think Vegeta, my favorite, should get it, then there's no way I think those two brats should. They didn't deserve Ssj1, much less skipping two forms onto 4.

[Basaku]

Goku is the strongest character in the show; he should have something to represent that strength.

Super isn't (as of now) connected to Daima.

I'm ready to be proven wrong in EP 20 but even if, we are now moving the goalposts that Goku needs an exclusive form to himself in literally every timeline and show and continuity?

I just said they should take a back seat to a new cast in a story set after the end of Z. Goku getting Ssj4 and Vegeta getting Ssj3 should be the end of their journey as the main characters.

How could the new cast EVER happen of Goku and Vegeta are constantly on the screen and constantly get all the powerups tho?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

We are now moving the goalposts that Goku needs an exclusive form to himself in literally every continuity?

Yes. Again, Goku is the character everyone looks to for leadership when things get tough. If Goku is going to be in that position, he needs to be able to support it with strength.

How could the new cast EVER happen if Goku and Vegeta are constantly on the screen and getting all the power ups ?

This is a Toei issue, not a me issue. If I had a say, I'd discard Super in its entirety and continue the story after the end of Z with the next generation. Daima's events would of course be taken into account.

[Basaku]

We are now moving the goalposts that Goku needs an exclusive form to himself in literally every continuity?

Yes. Again, Goku is the character everyone looks to for leadership when things get tough. If Goku is going to be in that position, he needs to be able to support it with strength.

How could the new cast EVER happen if Goku and Vegeta are constantly on the screen and getting all the power ups ?

This is a Toei issue, not a me issue. If I had a say, I'd discard Super in its entirety and continue the story after the end of Z with the next generation. Daima's events would of course be taken into account.

If your are advocating for Goku to be getting all the powerups and screentime then... kinda yes? You are part of the issue? The issue is in big way fans who demand Goku (&Vegeta) Time all the time and Toei/Iyoku respond to that

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If your are advocating for Goku to be getting all the powerups and screentime then... kinda yes?

Goku getting a power up exclusive to him doesn't mean the others can't get their own thing and have screen time. Again, if I had a say in the franchise's future I'd switch focus to the next generation of fighters.

[Vice]

You honestly believe a series centered around Goten, Trunks, Pan and Oob is going to move the needle in any way whatsoever?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

You honestly believe a series centered around Goten, Trunks, Pan and Oob is going to move the needle in any way whatsoever?

Do I think it would happen ? absolutely not. Should it happen, with the old cast taking on a mentor role ? absolutely yes. Keep in mind it wouldn't just be the 4 you mentioned.

[JulieYBM]

I suggest just writing original fiction instead. You could create something way more fun than Dragon Ball, especially when it's so centered on not having character arcs.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

You could create something way more fun than Dragon Ball, especially when it's so centered on not having character arcs.

DB did have character arcs back in the day; it's just the modern material that seems uninterested in that aspect of the franchise.

[JulieYBM]

You could create something way more fun than Dragon Ball, especially when it's so centered on not having character arcs.

DB did have character arcs back in the day; it's just the modern material that seems uninterested in that aspect of the franchise.

Haphazardly stumbling into some resolution for one or two characters is hardly what I'd call character writing, especially from a guy who goes out of his way to talk about intentionally not writing while trying to say anything.

I really don't think "change the main character" is the solution to the problem here. It ultimately won't amount to anything if you don't just try to write character stuff and change your characters a bit. We'll just be palette-swapping at that point.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I really don't think "change the main character" is the solution to the problem here.

This I can agree with. In order for DB to move forward, it needs to move away from the people keeping it in this state of mediocrity for the past decade plus.

[JulieYBM]

I really don't think "change the main character" is the solution to the problem here.

This I can agree with. In order for DB to move forward, it needs to move away from the people keeping it in this state of mediocrity for the past decade plus.

That's the entire production committee, so I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. Until the series director and writers assigned to a project are trusted more to do their jobs, the projects are going to continue to be bad.

That being said, if the creative side were trusted more, we could definitely get actually good Gokuu and Vegeta stuff, I'd offer.

Round-and-round the circle we go, I guess.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

That's the entire production committee...

Exactly. All of them need to go in order for this franchise to move forward. This same group of people have been working on this revival for 12 years now; it's time to move on. I will always appreciate projects like the 2008 OVA, the 2013's Battle of Gods movie, and the current Daima series. They may have been flawed, but they at least kept the heart of the franchise intact. With that said, that's only 3 projects. The Super anime in its entirety was a train wreck, Resurrection F and Superhero were very underwhelming compared to what came before them, The Granola arc was one of the worst manga arcs ever written, etc... Dragon Ball needs a new set of eyes to carry it into the future.

[Basaku]

If your are advocating for Goku to be getting all the powerups and screentime then... kinda yes?

Goku getting a power up exclusive to him doesn't mean the others can't get their own thing and have screen time. Again, if I had a say in the franchise's future I'd switch focus to the next generation of fighters.

But you're still saying Daima should be the Goku (&Vegeta) show and SSJ4 should be exclusive to Goku.

What I mean is that unless you're willing to give it up actually at some point, then the 'moving on' will NEVER happen because all the people involved are thinking the same way - "sure we wanna move on but this time it's Goku Time again because this and that reason, next time we will totally move on". And then the next time becomes Goku (&Vegeta) Time again and we end up stuck in the same perpetual circle since Yo Son Goku

[Vegeta th3 4th]

But you're still saying Daima should be the Goku (&Vegeta) show and SSJ4 should be exclusive to Goku.

I said if it was up to me, Daima would be the final project that focuses on Goku and Vegeta. Anything after that would be set after the end of Z, with a focus on the next generation of fighters being trained by the established cast. Known characters such as Pan and Uub would be there, as well as new characters being introduced for the first time. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Tien, Krillin, etc... have all completed their story arcs, there's very little room left for them to grow as main characters. However, turning them into martial arts masters opens all kinds of doors for them to develop.

Why now though, what makes Daima the perfect end point you may ask. Simple; it ties up all loose ends from the Buu arc. We got to visit the demon realm which was teased at the start of the Buu arc, Vegeta got the Ssj3 that was the key to changing his views on Goku and fighting, and Goku himself is once again the unquestionable power house of the group with Ssj4. What about Super you may be wondering, and to that I say, what the hell is Super ? never heard of it.

[Basaku]

I said if it was up to me, Daima would be the final project that focuses on Goku and Vegeta. Anything after that would be set after the end of Z, with a focus on the next generation of fighters being trained by the established cast. Known characters such as Pan and Uub would be there, as well as new characters being introduced for the first time. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Tien, Krillin, etc... have all completed their story arcs, there's very little room left for them to grow as main characters. However, turning them into martial arts masters opens all kinds of doors for them to develop.

Why now though, what makes Daima the perfect end point you may ask. Simple; it ties up all loose ends from the Buu arc. We got to visit the demon realm which was teased at the start of the Buu arc, Vegeta got the Ssj3 that was the key to changing his views on Goku and fighting, and Goku himself is once again the unquestionable power house of the group with Ssj4. What about Super you may be wondering, and to that I say, what the hell is Super ? never heard of it.

Well ok, but you gotta admit you're kinda just putting it openly on the table yourself - Daima for Goku & Vegeta because powerhouse and SSJ3. C'mon, you know these are superbly superficial and weak reasons. I absolutely agree with you that Goku & Vegeta's developement and character arcs been done and over with since Buu saga.

So basically going back to the original point - Daima really could've been already used for the kid cast instead of Goku & Vegeta AGAIN when the reasons to "give" it to them are so... thin. And to say that Super is pretend-non-existant to boost up the Daima-for-Goku argument is well, you know, even thinner to put it delicately

[fadeddreams5]

Well, now that the series is over, I can revisit this question. I don't like to use the word "fix" cause it seems disrespectful to Toriyama's vision, but my version of Daima would be quite different:

• I would replace Gomah with Pilaf because they are both practically the same character, only Pilaf is better designed and iconic. I would also omit Degesu from the story. He was a tad pointless. Pilaf's usual minions would do.

• Pilaf's role of demon king would be something of a gag. After Dabura was brainwashed, Babidi made sure to kill all his family members within the demon realm, in fear of rebellion. In this story, only Dabura's lineage can be heir to the thrown, as well as use the third eye. Arinsu, who shared Dabura's vision of the demon realm overtaking the outside world seeks someone who shares his blood, and it turns out Pilaf is his only distant relative alive, somehow being born in the outside world.

• Upon introducing herself and bestowing the title of king to Pilaf, Pilaf humorously tears up before playing it cool, and of course does not hesitate to accept the throne, though Mai and Shu are skeptical. Of course, for Arinsu's plans to work, she requires him to possess the power of the third eye, so she brings Neva with her to the outside world so they can use the dragon balls to wish for it. However, Goku and crew interrupt, Pilaf has a PTSD episode and wishes for something humorous to happen to Goku (NOT MAKING HIM SMALL) that wastes the wish, and they retreat back, now forced to find the third eye a different way.

• Goku and crew don't really take Pilaf seriously, so they ignore everything that happened. However, Glorio appears and informs them that both worlds will be in trouble if Pilaf obtains the third eye, and mentions the demon realm dragon balls, which are guarded by strong foes. This excites Goku, so he accepts to join him. Since there are 3 different demon worlds, they split into two groups, with Goku the leader of one, and Vegeta of the other.

• Arinsu decides she'll need to use the demon realm's dragon balls to acquire the third eye, so she creates Kuu and Duu as normal to help Pilaf. Goku and crew decide they have to get them before she does too.

• In this story, Goku is not a child. The struggle he faces, instead, is that the demon world he visits has very different physics he has to adapt to, preventing him from going SSJ and flying, initially. Additionally, he has no access to the 3rd demon realm at the start. Most of the start is similar, with him meeting Panzy. Because of his handicap, he loses to the first tamagami. This, of course, requires him to train, and Neva becomes his master, possibly out of boredom and amusement. This training replaces some filler from Daima. After which, he beats the tamagami after achieving SSJ in the middle of the battle.

• Meanwhile, the dilemma Vegeta's crew faces is his demon world is a big ball of water, so he needs a suit to even survive there. Perhaps, Bulma manages to create one. He has his own adventure there, and fights the tamagami. Unlike Goku, Vegeta does have access to all his powers in this demon world. He's just underwater and is forced to adapt to the pressure.

• At the end, replace the giant bs, shooting episode, and Ginyu Force rip-off with Goku and Vegeta having a battle against Kuu and Duu to get the remaining dragon ball. While they are distracted, Shu takes them, and Arinsu wishes for the third eye. Pilaf, in a panic, puts it on immediately.

• So Pilaf transforms, and we get to see something we never thought we would: him beating up Goku and everyone for a brief moment. Mai and Shu are scared of his transformation, and plead him to remove the eye, especially when Pilaf begins to experience mental lapses. It becomes clear he is too weak a host for the third eye, which is what Arinsu anticipated.

• The third eye becomes unstable and consumes Pilaf's body, using it as a host for my baby, the GOAT, Janemba. It turns out the third eye's origin stems from Hell; it is a relic that consumes the wickedness of souls before they are reincarnated, which is why only the most wicked and powerful demons can equip it, and why Pilaf can't--he's not that bad of a guy. There's a prophecy that when a demon king of lineage fails to properly equip it, the hell demon will be born and end all worlds. Arinsu believed she could take control of this beast to rule over everything.

• Arinsu tries to tame Janemba, who is but a mere baby, by convincing him that she is its mom. Janemba playfully slaps her away and shoots an energy blast at her. Kuu protects her, dying in the process, and making the audience cry, cause we all love Kuu. Duu, seeing this, gets enraged and tries to fight Janemba, but Janemba uses one of its portal thingies to force Duu into its mouth, and swallows him whole. SSJ3 Vegeta fights him, and manages to do well, but the third eye continues to regenerate Janemba. Additionally, Janemba's mere presence begins to distort space. Everyone is in shock. Arinsu is guilt-driven and realizes she's made a mistake. She needs a spell book to neutralize the third eye's regenerative properties, but it's in another world, so Goku needs to distract Janemba in the meantime.

• Goku showcases Janemba his SSJ forms, which Janemba joyfully claps over. After SSJ3, he transforms into SSJ4, but the way I fix this is simple: a) I already mentioned Goku received special training by Neva in the 1st demon world, where physics were different and b) there's a full moon in the 3rd demon world. In this story, Goku can ONLY go beyond SSJ3 if there is a full moon he can gaze at. Also, I would redesign the fur and make it yellow to be consistent. Red eyes can stay to be in line with the great ape eyes.

• SSJ4 Goku beats the living shit out of Janemba, but the third eyes continues to mutate it into other forms, which still can't keep up with Goku, though he keeps recovering too. Arinsu manages to cast a spell to neutralize the regeneration. However, then Janemba's yellow shell cracks, and out comes Super Janemba. Its ki is enough to distort space/time so much that portals open into the outside world. Neva warns Goku that if the third eye enters the outside world, all of reality will cease to exist.

• SSJ4 Goku and Super Janemba have the most epic fight, with Janemba's portals teleporting them across all parts of the demon realm. Goku eventually gains the upper hand, but Janemba retreats, attempting to escape into the outside world by using one of its space distortion portals. Goku uses a feet kamehameha and a great ape punch to kill him. Unfortunately, Goku unintentionally enters Janemba's portal / the outside world with the third eye... reality is completely warped and Goku blacks out.

• Goku wakes up next to the third eye, as well as an unconscious Pilaf and Duu, in a strange dark void, where there are many portals surrounding him, almost like TV screens, showing many different versions of himself (i.e. GT, Super, DBZ movies, etc.) He is confused. Rymus appears and explains that his battle resulted in the end of Universe 7, and what he sees are spatial distortions leading to several of infinite timelines created by his battle. For bringing him that pesky third eye he had been looking for for 1,000,000 years, Rymus restores Goku's own universe and the demon realm, and sends Goku and the other two away.

• Peace is restored. Pilaf's crew cry with joy seeing him okay, but they are banned from the demon realm forever. Arinsu is happy for Duu, and recovers Kuu with a fragment of his body she saved. Happy ending.

I have the flu... that was a fun distraction. lol. Felt like a kid writing all of this.

TL;DR: Pilaf instead of Gomah, no chibi forms, SSJ4 requires a full moon, Janemba as final boss through third eye possession, and the creation of infinite timelines thanks to the aftermath of Janemba / third eye's signature space-time distortions, resulting in everything being canon to the original manga and fans losing their minds.

[BernardoCairo]

I wouldn't necessarily call this a "fix", but one idea I had was to reimagine Super Saiyajin 4 as a werewolf-like transformation. Instead of turning Goku into a child, he would gradually transform into a monkey. He'd be cursed, losing his signature powers over time, including his Super Saiyajin forms. Ultimately, through this struggle, Goku would learn to control this new power and use it to unlock Super Saiyajin 4, transforming the problem into a solution.

Great idea, fadeddreams5! At first I was like: "Pilaf"? But in the end it all made sense

[Yuji]

I wouldn't necessarily call this a "fix", but one idea I had was to reimagine Super Saiyajin 4 as a werewolf-like transformation. Instead of turning Goku into a child, he would gradually transform into a monkey. He'd be cursed, losing his signature powers over time, including his Super Saiyajin forms. Ultimately, through this struggle, Goku would learn to control this new power and use it to unlock Super Saiyajin 4, transforming the problem into a solution.

Great idea, fadeddreams5! At first I was like: "Pilaf"? But in the end it all made sense

Sonic Unleashed?

[BernardoCairo]

Sonic Unleashed?

Actually, now that I think about it, yeah. But I was mostly inspired by a Ben 10 episode I watched when I was a kid.