If Daima becomes non-canon to Super, then what was the point?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Do you have a source on that?

It's something I've read about over the years, likely due to marketing. But no, I don't have a source on hand now. There have been exceptions, so it's not completely out of the realms of possibility, just not likely.

[super michael]

Would you be open to seeing them as story modes in games if they weren’t ever animated as a show or movie?

Manga only content, be it for DB or other series, aren't allowed to appear in games before animation. There are rare exceptions, but that's all they are, exceptions.

Do you have a source on that?

I don't know of any source, however the Moro chapter came out around 2018 or 2019, yet no games has those characters and forms.
We don't get DLC from the manga exclusive chapters.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Daima is bad, but it's hardly offensive enough to speak so melodramatically about it.

Daima? Did you mean Super?

[JulieYBM]

Daima is bad, but it's hardly offensive enough to speak so melodramatically about it.

Daima? Did you mean Super?

Probably. They're both—generally-speaking—bad television series.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Probably. They're both—generally-speaking—bad television series.

Daima has been nice. Super was bad on a technical level with that animation, that's straight up unprofessional from the studio.

[Peach]

Do you have a source on that?

It's something I've read about over the years, likely due to marketing. But no, I don't have a source on hand now. There have been exceptions, so it's not completely out of the realms of possibility, just not likely.

I see.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But we don't know what contracts or rights look like behind the scenes. I think we should probably keep an open mind and acknowledge that we don't know one way or another why manga content isn't in games.

It's possible they just haven't developed a consistent vision for the character with a voice actor. Or maybe, they're focusing on Daima, Super Super Hero, and the Broly film more before manga content. Or maybe some executives think the manga content is non-important side story, like Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I'm not saying you're wrong. But we don't know what contracts or rights look like behind the scenes. I think we should probably keep an open mind and acknowledge that we don't know one way or another why manga content isn't in games.

I agree with you. We could very well get all this manga content if the rights holders decided it would be beneficial to them financially, they just haven't done that as of today.

[smiley]

Daima is canon as far as I'm concerned, and so is Super.

Most incosistencies can be explained away with a litttle creativity, and even if you cannot do that, it doesn't matter. There are contradictions within the main manga as well. For example, Vegeta says he's the strongest in the universe in the Saiyan saga. Then we learn Freeza is actually the strongest in the next arc. But then in the Buu saga, we learn that Kaioshin is even stronger than Freeza. Are the Buu, Saiyan and Freeza sagas non-canon to each other?

Retcons happen.

The Daima and Super stories were written by Toriyama. Unless there's some kind of direct confirmation that he intended this to be a "What if", alternate universe, or whatever (like he said about the Z movies), I'm going to consider it canon.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

There are contradictions within the main manga as well. For example, Vegeta says he's the strongest in the universe in the Saiyan saga. Then we learn Freeza is actually the strongest in the next arc. But then in the Buu saga, we learn that Kaioshin is even stronger than Freeza. Are the Buu, Saiyan and Freeza sagas non-canon to each other?

A couple of lines of dialogue not lining up is not the same as an entire Ssj4 not showing up out of nowhere. Unless he can't access the form without Neva, then Daima and Super will never fit together.

[smiley]

There are contradictions within the main manga as well. For example, Vegeta says he's the strongest in the universe in the Saiyan saga. Then we learn Freeza is actually the strongest in the next arc. But then in the Buu saga, we learn that Kaioshin is even stronger than Freeza. Are the Buu, Saiyan and Freeza sagas non-canon to each other?

A couple of lines of dialogue not lining up is not the same as an entire Ssj4 not showing up out of nowhere. Unless he can't access the form without Neva, then Daima and Super will never fit together.

It's not the same, but it's analogous. So what if it's just dialogue? That also creates problems that you have to rationalize. Why was Vegeta said to be the strongest when there was Freeza? You can't just say that he was boasting, because he said something along the lines of: "I, Vegeta, said to be the strongest in the universe". He is quoting what someone else said about him. And IIRC, he's talking to himself, he's not bragging to anyone.

And these lines of dialogue create problems. If Kaioshin is so much stronger than Freeza, then why didn't he do anything about him? Of course, I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of creative solutions if you put your mind to it, but to me, there's no obvious, immediate answer.

As for SSJ4, we can just say that he didn't use it in BoG because he estimated that there's no point because it wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus. I understand that this is a weak explanation because the true answer is that back when BoG was written, they didn't know that Goku had SSJ4. The true answer is that it was retconned.

Anything can be retconned. In Spider-Man, Norman Osborn gets killed on-screen, twenty years later, they decide to bring him back.

[SupremeKai25]

As for SSJ4, we can just say that he didn't use it in BoG because he estimated that there's no point because it wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus. I understand that this is a weak explanation because the true answer is that back when BoG was written, they didn't know that Goku had SSJ4. The true answer is that it was retconned.

It's not even a weak explanation. SSJ3 was complete and utter fodder compared to Lord Beerus, who finger-flicked it without even paying attention, and was barely tickled.

So why would SSJ4 make any difference? He also didn't try fusion.

Where's this "rule" that Goku always goes through the Super Saiyan list before surrendering? Yet I thought this was one of the main complaints of the Goku vs. Jiren fight, that Goku just wasted everyone's time by going through a bunch of fodder forms that clearly weren't going to tickle Jiren? So why is this fandom now suggesting that Goku should have tried every useless form he had against Beerus?

People always find new character rules about Goku. Do you know what it is about this strange idea that Goku always tries every transformation available in a fight? Never heard of that.

[super michael]

I'm not saying you're wrong. But we don't know what contracts or rights look like behind the scenes. I think we should probably keep an open mind and acknowledge that we don't know one way or another why manga content isn't in games.

I agree with you. We could very well get all this manga content if the rights holders decided it would be beneficial to them financially, they just haven't done that as of today.

I can understand adding new characters requires to know what voice to use, but what about forms? What is stopping Vegeta from getting UE and Goku getting TUI? Then there are manga exclusive techniques like Vegeta Hakai, Spirit Fission, Goku Avatar Susano, etc.

As for SSJ4, we can just say that he didn't use it in BoG because he estimated that there's no point because it wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus. I understand that this is a weak explanation because the true answer is that back when BoG was written, they didn't know that Goku had SSJ4. The true answer is that it was retconned.

It's not even a weak explanation. SSJ3 was complete and utter fodder compared to Lord Beerus, who finger-flicked it without even paying attention, and was barely tickled.

So why would SSJ4 make any difference? He also didn't try fusion.

Where's this "rule" that Goku always goes through the Super Saiyan list before surrendering? Yet I thought this was one of the main complaints of the Goku vs. Jiren fight, that Goku just wasted everyone's time by going through a bunch of fodder forms that clearly weren't going to tickle Jiren? So why is this fandom now suggesting that Goku should have tried every useless form he had against Beerus?

People always find new character rules about Goku. Do you know what it is about this strange idea that Goku always tries every transformation available in a fight? Never heard of that.

In the manga of DBS BoG Goku says he doesn't have any transformation above SSJ3, when Beerus tells SSJ3 Goku to turn into SSG. As for BoG anime and movie, I can't check it at the moment.


So no DBS Manga Goku doesn't have SSJ4. SSJ3 used to be Goku final transformation, until Goku did the ritual for SSG.

[GokuHater]

It's obvious Goku goes through every transformation in that first fight with Beerus cause Beerus specifically asked him to show his strength.
Kind of what he had done in Buu to buy Trunks time. So going form by form makes sense here. He wants to "show" them all to Beerus as well as making it a challenge for himself.

Stating "this is my final form, I've got nothing more" is clearly different than "I have one more form but I'm sure it won't make a difference".

[Yuji]

It's obvious Goku goes through every transformation in that first fight with Beerus cause Beerus specifically asked him to show his strength.
Kind of what he had done in Buu to buy Trunks time. So going form by form makes sense here. He wants to "show" them all to Beerus as well as making it a challenge for himself.

Stating "this is my final form, I've got nothing more" is clearly different than "I have one more form but I'm sure it won't make a difference".

Goku goes straight to SS3 in the film. He does transform to 1 and 2 but he only fights in 3. Maybe next episode we will find out he can't use SS4 at will outside the demon realm, or, like UI, he suddenty can't do it anymore unless he's "in a pinch". I figure they'll add some convoluted caveat like that instead of just outright ignoring continuity.

[SupremeKai25]

So no DBS Manga Goku doesn't have SSJ4. SSJ3 used to be Goku final transformation, until Goku did the ritual for SSG.

Uhm, yeah, but that's not a problem because Toyotaro had nothing to do with Daima. There will only be an inconsistency if Movie/Anime Goku says the same thing.

Why should Toyotaro correct something or care about what Daima did? He had no hand in that product. It's not his problem.

[GokuHater]

It's obvious Goku goes through every transformation in that first fight with Beerus cause Beerus specifically asked him to show his strength.
Kind of what he had done in Buu to buy Trunks time. So going form by form makes sense here. He wants to "show" them all to Beerus as well as making it a challenge for himself.

Stating "this is my final form, I've got nothing more" is clearly different than "I have one more form but I'm sure it won't make a difference".

Goku goes straight to SS3 in the film. He does transform to 1 and 2 but he only fights in 3. Maybe next episode we will find out he can't use SS4 at will outside the demon realm, or, like UI, he suddenty can't do it anymore unless he's "in a pinch". I figure they'll add some convoluted caveat like that instead of just outright ignoring continuity.

Point taken.
I forgot he only battled with 3. But the point still stands. He showed them all specifically. So there's no sense in him going "I will show you all my tranformations expect the strongest one".

If they actually address it, then I will be very happy, if not, it isn't such a big problem for me really, DB does this all the time

My point is it's not really a good storytelling if they don't address it.

[super michael]

So no DBS Manga Goku doesn't have SSJ4. SSJ3 used to be Goku final transformation, until Goku did the ritual for SSG.

Uhm, yeah, but that's not a problem because Toyotaro had nothing to do with Daima. There will only be an inconsistency if Movie/Anime Goku says the same thing.

Why should Toyotaro correct something or care about what Daima did? He had no hand in that product. It's not his problem.

In Dragon Ball Super episode 5 Beerus knew that SSJ2 was hiding power, Beerus says for Goku to showing him everything or he won't show his powers of the God of Destruction. Goku then turns into SSJ3, which Goku says "This is the most powerful Super Saiyan 3!". Beerus then says "Well... You must show me your real power.".
Later on against SSJ3 Goku, Beerus says this "Could you be hiding more powers? For instance, the powers of the Super Saiyan God?". Goku replies like this "You're mocking me!".


It was stated that enraged SSJ2 Vegeta surpass Goku, now I can only believe Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku and not SSJ4 which doesn't exist at this time.

As for BoG movie when I have time, I will try and quote it.

[taikufuru]

I find all this panic about the Dragon Ball Super connection to be very unnecessary. They are part of the same story. Dragon Ball Daima takes place before Dragon Ball Super, that's all you need to know.

"Oh, Goku doesn't have Super Saiyan 4 in Dragon Ball Super!"

Dragon Ball Daima didn't exist in 2015, that's why they didn't include it.

Dragon Ball Super was a plot conceived by Toriyama, but it was fragmented into three different media and throughout its production, it passed through several hands. The TV series isn't even consistent with itself.

• For example, in the Battle of Gods arc, Vegeta (as a child) and his father have the look from the 90s TV Special, not the one we saw in Dragon Ball Minus and Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

• Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution don't appear in Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

• Ginyu switching bodies with Bulma (Dragon Ball Z TV Series) is referenced in Resurrection 'F' arc, while the series also references the pair of bandits who were arrested by Great Saiyaman and Videl in the manga (something that did not happen in Dragon Ball Z TV series).

Ultimately, the narrative is what matters most. Goku being SSJ4 and Vegeta SSJ3 in the Battle of Gods arc would not affect the narrative at all. They would lose to Beerus anyway. The story is about the Super Saiyan God and Beerus' premonition.

The inconsistencies between the period in which Shin and Kibito separate also make no difference. They do not interfere with the narrative of Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F' and when they appear separately in the Champa arc, they are still mere extras.

As a fan, I would like everything to be very well organized, but the series is very big, it has been around for 40 years and its creator and the rights holders have never worried about that. For Toriyama, these modern stories have always been something beyond the original manga. So if you want to follow this canon line to the letter, without stressing, just stick with the original work.

[FinalForumPodcast]

I think it's less "panic" and more just 'another in a list of complaints.'

I've GENERALLY actually enjoyed Daima while I'm watching it, but the complaints start to stack up, and I don't think there's anything wrong with putting "it fits poorly with the continuity in seemingly bigger than usual ways" on that list. It's just another thing that takes the show from being a 5/5 to a 4.5...to a 4...to a 3.5...

[Piramid]

I find all this panic about the Dragon Ball Super connection to be very unnecessary. They are part of the same story. Dragon Ball Daima takes place before Dragon Ball Super, that's all you need to know.

"Oh, Goku doesn't have Super Saiyan 4 in Dragon Ball Super!"

Dragon Ball Daima didn't exist in 2015, that's why they didn't include it.

Dragon Ball Super was a plot conceived by Toriyama, but it was fragmented into three different media and throughout its production, it passed through several hands. The TV series isn't even consistent with itself.

• For example, in the Battle of Gods arc, Vegeta (as a child) and his father have the look from the 90s TV Special, not the one we saw in Dragon Ball Minus and Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

• Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution don't appear in Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

• Ginyu switching bodies with Bulma (Dragon Ball Z TV Series) is referenced in Resurrection 'F' arc, while the series also references the pair of bandits who were arrested by Great Saiyaman and Videl in the manga (something that did not happen in Dragon Ball Z TV series).

Ultimately, the narrative is what matters most. Goku being SSJ4 and Vegeta SSJ3 in the Battle of Gods arc would not affect the narrative at all. They would lose to Beerus anyway. The story is about the Super Saiyan God and Beerus' premonition.

The inconsistencies between the period in which Shin and Kibito separate also make no difference. They do not interfere with the narrative of Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F' and when they appear separately in the Champa arc, they are still mere extras.

As a fan, I would like everything to be very well organized, but the series is very big, it has been around for 40 years and its creator and the rights holders have never worried about that. For Toriyama, these modern stories have always been something beyond the original manga. So if you want to follow this canon line to the letter, without stressing, just stick with the original work.

You can’t just say it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t affect the story. If nothing changes in the last episode, then DB Daima and DB Super definitely aren’t part of the same story, universe, or canon—just like DBGT and Super aren’t.

And I’m glad about it.