Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Piccolo is like 55 to 60% of SSJ Goku of the Cell Games. The Saiyans weren't the only ones that went to the RoSaT, he's no slouch.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m not really arguing against the mental image training itself, but the idea that Goku was imagining Super Perfect Cell specifically doesn’t hold much weight for me. He never actually fought that version of Cell, he didn’t even fight Perfect Cell at full strength. The last real reference point Goku’s body had was from their match a decade ago. And, curiously, when he compared Dabra to someone, it was Cell. We even see that Mini Goku in Daima can beat Dabra as a SS1, going by his match against Tamagami #3 and Majin Duu. So, considering SS1 Goku in the Buu arc was stronger than Dabra, the mental fight against Cell could easily represent what would happen if Goku fought Dabra instead of Cell in his mind.

As for Shin, I don’t really put much stock in what guidebooks say about his power. The actual story contradicts them. If the fight with Pui Pui wasn’t enough, the Yakon fight makes it pretty obvious. Shin had no chance against a beast that Goku held his own in base form. That’s the real nail in the coffin. All those ‘Shin > Super Namekian Piccolo’ statements end up misleading in retrospect. It actually makes perfect thematic sense for the Buu arc. Shin was hyped as some almighty Supreme Kai, but when it came down to it, he was weak compared to Piccolo and the Saiyans.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’m not really arguing against the mental image training itself, but the idea that Goku was imagining Super Perfect Cell specifically doesn’t hold much weight for me. He never actually fought that version of Cell, he didn’t even fight Perfect Cell at full strength. The last real reference point Goku’s body had was from their match a decade ago. And, curiously, when he compared Dabra to someone, it was Cell. We even see that Mini Goku in Daima can beat Dabra as a SS1, going by his match against Tamagami #3 and Majin Duu. So, considering SS1 Goku in the Buu arc was stronger than Dabra, the mental fight against Cell could easily represent what would happen if Goku fought Dabra instead of Cell in his mind.

As for Shin, I don’t really put much stock in what guidebooks say about his power. The actual story contradicts them. If the fight with Pui Pui wasn’t enough, the Yakon fight makes it pretty obvious. Shin had no chance against a beast that Goku held his own in base form. That’s the real nail in the coffin. All those ‘Shin > Super Namekian Piccolo’ statements end up misleading in retrospect. It actually makes perfect thematic sense for the Buu arc. Shin was hyped as some almighty Supreme Kai, but when it came down to it, he was weak compared to Piccolo and the Saiyans.

People tend to say Kaioshin was being careful, rather than flat out inferior. What do you think of that? Kaioshin said he didn't think he'd beat Babidi without their help (And that's before the Dabura reveal), but he nor Babidi can sense Ki and are conveniently wrong about too many things. Pui Pui thinking 10x gravity is impressive doesn't help his case.

I'm not so sure about that last part. For ages Piccolo was considered a nothing burger next to any of the Super Saiyans. For know Piccolo has easily disposed of two people Kaioshin probably wouldn't beat so easily (Babidi and Dengesu)

I really wouldn't call anybody dumb while also claiming Goku closing his eyes and pretending to oneshot people proves he is actually as strong as he is pretending to be. Specially, if the author, 3 arcs later, is providing a clear-cut comparison of similar forms that puts that non-sense to rest.

But closing your eyes and thinking about nothing is training somehow?

I can understand if Goku is imagining a weaker variant of Cell he can actually fight, and that's probably the case (No point in imagining SPC tearing him apart), but that's definitely training, not imagination. He literally says he's taking his lunch time to train.

I think you’re missing the point. Just one year before, Future Trunks was struggling against Dabra in his Super Saiyan form, and Dabra was far weaker than SS2 Kid Gohan. Even if Trunks got much stronger after multiple battles with Goku Black, the only form that saw a massive increase was his SS2 form. There’s no indication that his base or SS1 had skyrocketed past that level. That’s the main issue. Plus, Goku only commented on Future Trunks surpassing Kid Gohan after Trunks turned SS2. If his base or SS1 were already beyond SS2 Gohan, that statement would make no sense; it would be redundant.

As for the Cell Saga, yes, Goku improved his overall strength, but the focus of his training was on mastering Super Saiyan. His biggest gains were observable in his Super Saiyan form, just like how, in Super, his most significant gains come from godly transformations. No one is saying he didn’t improve at all in base, but where’s the evidence that his base form made a 50x jump past Final Form Freeza? That’s a massive leap with no real justification in the manga continuity.

The Merus training is one of the few times Goku explicitly focused on improving everything rather than just chasing the next transformation. Even then, a major part of his training was about getting accustomed to Ultra Instinct. If you’re looking for an example of base form growth, Vegeta on Yardrat is more fitting, but who does he fight in base? Some random Zarbon lookalike. That’s hardly enough to justify putting their base forms leagues above anything from Z.

And honestly, why bring up the anime in this discussion? Toei is responsible for most of the bloated base Saiyan scaling issues. The manga continuity doesn’t support the idea that base Goku is suddenly beyond Freeza after 10 years when his biggest power boosts always come through transformations.

But what does SSJ Trunks have to do with anything? That's being pedantic. Goku doesn't know how strong he is until they fight, and when they fight Trunks starts as a SSJ2. This is a lot like what some people argue about Beerus only saying Goku surpassed Freeza when he goes SSJ2 in the manga.

But you do agree SSJ is always 50x right? I don't think improving in itself proves he surpassed anyone, I'm just pointing out the bulk of his improvements up to Super came from his base power, not new SSJ forms. He only gets new forms towards the end of the series.

Dismissing the anime for action sequences that don't make sense is one thing, discarding lore given by it is a whole other thing. Each version of Super left out blanks for the other versions to fill in, and we do see Goku and Vegeta focus on training their base forms when they're training with Whis in the manga.

Goku and Gohan trained their Super Saiyan forms in the Cell arc. Nothing tells us their base forms got significantly stronger post-ROSAT. It's merely conjecture because we assume multipliers are stagnant, rather than fluid.

It can be contested, but I wouldn't call the multiplier we've been given by multiple sources (Including the writer himself) "conjecture".

[QuakingStar]

I’m not really arguing against the mental image training itself, but the idea that Goku was imagining Super Perfect Cell specifically doesn’t hold much weight for me. He never actually fought that version of Cell, he didn’t even fight Perfect Cell at full strength. The last real reference point Goku’s body had was from their match a decade ago. And, curiously, when he compared Dabra to someone, it was Cell. We even see that Mini Goku in Daima can beat Dabra as a SS1, going by his match against Tamagami #3 and Majin Duu. So, considering SS1 Goku in the Buu arc was stronger than Dabra, the mental fight against Cell could easily represent what would happen if Goku fought Dabra instead of Cell in his mind.

As for Shin, I don’t really put much stock in what guidebooks say about his power. The actual story contradicts them. If the fight with Pui Pui wasn’t enough, the Yakon fight makes it pretty obvious. Shin had no chance against a beast that Goku held his own in base form. That’s the real nail in the coffin. All those ‘Shin > Super Namekian Piccolo’ statements end up misleading in retrospect. It actually makes perfect thematic sense for the Buu arc. Shin was hyped as some almighty Supreme Kai, but when it came down to it, he was weak compared to Piccolo and the Saiyans.

He sensed Cells power when he returned, he also sensed Cells full power when Cell fought SS2 Gohan, BEFORE Cell exploded. There is absolutely zero reason he would use the version of Cell he fought in the Cell Games as his training when he himself is now far stronger than he was in the Cell Games. It's absolutely mental gymnastics to say he isn't using SPC considering he very clearly sensed Cells power and also sensed Gohans and knew that inside Gohan had the power to beat SPC(and he did). A version of SS Goku 9 years later would not be using a version of Cell he would vastly outclass to begin with for training.

Mental Image Training is abolutely a real and viable training and Frieze used it in Hell to become far stronger as well.

SS Goku in the BoG Arc is stronger than Perfect Cell at minimum, and Dabura. Future Trunks when he fights Goku as a SS2 is far above SPC and Dabura, and he has an edge on Goku using his Enhanced SS2 until Goku uses SSG. If Goku's power level was even 119 million in the BoG arc in base he would still be weaker than the 120 Million PL of Frieza and like others have pointed out Beerus words don't always match up and his sensing ability does not seem accurate.

The claim Goku didn't get much stronger from Buu Arc is just not true.

[Yuji]

It can be contested, but I wouldn't call the multiplier we've been given by multiple sources (Including the writer himself) "conjecture".

No multiplier was given to SS grade 4, only to regular Super Saiyan.

Super Saiyan 2 is even stated to be SSx2, not base x100. Base Cabba is equal to base Vegeta yet severely outclassed in SS. Vegeta and Trunks both have improved SS2 forms.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It can be contested, but I wouldn't call the multiplier we've been given by multiple sources (Including the writer himself) "conjecture".

No multiplier was given to SS grade 4, only to regular Super Saiyan.

Super Saiyan 2 is even stated to be SSx2, not base x100. Base Cabba is equal to base Vegeta yet severely outclassed in SS. Vegeta and Trunks both have improved SS2 forms.

SSJ Grade 1 and Grade 4 have the same multiplier, they’re considered to be the same form. This might have been an idea in the Cell Saga, but then the idea was abandoned. In the DBS anime you still have U6 Saiyans skipping MSSJ entirely and the manga has SSJ Vegeta and Cabba still fighting evenly.

[Hugo Boss]

People tend to say Kaioshin was being careful, rather than flat out inferior. What do you think of that? Kaioshin said he didn't think he'd beat Babidi without their help (And that's before the Dabura reveal), but he nor Babidi can sense Ki and are conveniently wrong about too many things. Pui Pui thinking 10x gravity is impressive doesn't help his case.

I'm not so sure about that last part. For ages Piccolo was considered a nothing burger next to any of the Super Saiyans. For know Piccolo has easily disposed of two people Kaioshin probably wouldn't beat so easily (Babidi and Dengesu)

Babidi and Kaioshin don’t sense ki the same way Goku does, but Kaioshin’s knowledge of the universe should still give him a rough idea of what he’s up against. He even name dropped Yakon. If he genuinely thought they were that big of a problem, he wasn’t far beyond them.

As for Piccolo, I agree that for most he was portrayed as a non-factor compared to the Saiyans, but I’m still trying to figure out my instance about his exact placement, since there are equally valid and contradictory evidence for both sides (weaker than Base Saiyans; between Base Saiyans and SS1).

But what does SSJ Trunks have to do with anything? That's being pedantic. Goku doesn't know how strong he is until they fight, and when they fight Trunks starts as a SSJ2. This is a lot like what some people argue about Beerus only saying Goku surpassed Freeza when he goes SSJ2 in the manga.

But you do agree SSJ is always 50x right? I don't think improving in itself proves he surpassed anyone, I'm just pointing out the bulk of his improvements up to Super came from his base power, not new SSJ forms. He only gets new forms towards the end of the series.

Dismissing the anime for action sequences that don't make sense is one thing, discarding lore given by it is a whole other thing. Each version of Super left out blanks for the other versions to fill in, and we do see Goku and Vegeta focus on training their base forms when they're training with Whis in the manga.

The point is: a year before, SS1 Trunks was struggling with Dabra. If his SS1 had already surpassed his initial SS2 level, there would be signs of it. If we are being optimistic here SS1 Trunks may have matched his SS2 from the fight against Dabra.

As for Super Saiyan multipliers, I agree that SS is intended to be a 50x boost, but the actual way it’s applied in modern material is inconsistent. We can’t just assume base forms skyrocketed so much beyond Freeza’s level. We do see base-focused training with Whis, but nothing suggests it made their base forms reach absurd levels. We actually see Base Goku struggling against Frost, and there’s no strong reason why Frost would be far above Freeza unless we assume he also trained significantly, which isn’t really supported. Also, Base Cabba rivaling Base Vegeta. That’s why I don’t buy the idea that base forms are in a completely different tier in Super.

He sensed Cells power when he returned, he also sensed Cells full power when Cell fought SS2 Gohan, BEFORE Cell exploded. There is absolutely zero reason he would use the version of Cell he fought in the Cell Games as his training when he himself is now far stronger than he was in the Cell Games. It's absolutely mental gymnastics to say he isn't using SPC considering he very clearly sensed Cells power and also sensed Gohans and knew that inside Gohan had the power to beat SPC(and he did). A version of SS Goku 9 years later would not be using a version of Cell he would vastly outclass to begin with for training.

Mental Image Training is abolutely a real and viable training and Frieze used it in Hell to become far stronger as well.

SS Goku in the BoG Arc is stronger than Perfect Cell at minimum, and Dabura. Future Trunks when he fights Goku as a SS2 is far above SPC and Dabura, and he has an edge on Goku using his Enhanced SS2 until Goku uses SSG. If Goku's power level was even 119 million in the BoG arc in base he would still be weaker than the 120 Million PL of Frieza and like others have pointed out Beerus words don't always match up and his sensing ability does not seem accurate.

The claim Goku didn't get much stronger from Buu Arc is just not true.

I don’t deny mental image training is a valid form of training. But the specific issue is which version of Cell Goku was imagining. You’re assuming he’d use Super Perfect Cell because he sensed him, but Goku never actually fought this Cell. He fought a much weaker version, meaning his personal experience comes from that fight a decade ago. For me, this matters the most for mental training, since Goku is doing a recap of his past opponents. If there was such a need to portray them at their strongest, there would be no point in showing Freeza and Cell, only Buu. And even Buu wasn’t at his strongest either.

[QuakingStar]

People tend to say Kaioshin was being careful, rather than flat out inferior. What do you think of that? Kaioshin said he didn't think he'd beat Babidi without their help (And that's before the Dabura reveal), but he nor Babidi can sense Ki and are conveniently wrong about too many things. Pui Pui thinking 10x gravity is impressive doesn't help his case.

I'm not so sure about that last part. For ages Piccolo was considered a nothing burger next to any of the Super Saiyans. For know Piccolo has easily disposed of two people Kaioshin probably wouldn't beat so easily (Babidi and Dengesu)

Babidi and Kaioshin don’t sense ki the same way Goku does, but Kaioshin’s knowledge of the universe should still give him a rough idea of what he’s up against. He even name dropped Yakon. If he genuinely thought they were that big of a problem, he wasn’t far beyond them.

As for Piccolo, I agree that for most he was portrayed as a non-factor compared to the Saiyans, but I’m still trying to figure out my instance about his exact placement, since there are equally valid and contradictory evidence for both sides (weaker than Base Saiyans; between Base Saiyans and SS1).

But what does SSJ Trunks have to do with anything? That's being pedantic. Goku doesn't know how strong he is until they fight, and when they fight Trunks starts as a SSJ2. This is a lot like what some people argue about Beerus only saying Goku surpassed Freeza when he goes SSJ2 in the manga.

But you do agree SSJ is always 50x right? I don't think improving in itself proves he surpassed anyone, I'm just pointing out the bulk of his improvements up to Super came from his base power, not new SSJ forms. He only gets new forms towards the end of the series.

Dismissing the anime for action sequences that don't make sense is one thing, discarding lore given by it is a whole other thing. Each version of Super left out blanks for the other versions to fill in, and we do see Goku and Vegeta focus on training their base forms when they're training with Whis in the manga.

The point is: a year before, SS1 Trunks was struggling with Dabra. If his SS1 had already surpassed his initial SS2 level, there would be signs of it. If we are being optimistic here SS1 Trunks may have matched his SS2 from the fight against Dabra.

As for Super Saiyan multipliers, I agree that SS is intended to be a 50x boost, but the actual way it’s applied in modern material is inconsistent. We can’t just assume base forms skyrocketed so much beyond Freeza’s level. We do see base-focused training with Whis, but nothing suggests it made their base forms reach absurd levels. We actually see Base Goku struggling against Frost, and there’s no strong reason why Frost would be far above Freeza unless we assume he also trained significantly, which isn’t really supported. Also, Base Cabba rivaling Base Vegeta. That’s why I don’t buy the idea that base forms are in a completely different tier in Super.

He sensed Cells power when he returned, he also sensed Cells full power when Cell fought SS2 Gohan, BEFORE Cell exploded. There is absolutely zero reason he would use the version of Cell he fought in the Cell Games as his training when he himself is now far stronger than he was in the Cell Games. It's absolutely mental gymnastics to say he isn't using SPC considering he very clearly sensed Cells power and also sensed Gohans and knew that inside Gohan had the power to beat SPC(and he did). A version of SS Goku 9 years later would not be using a version of Cell he would vastly outclass to begin with for training.

Mental Image Training is abolutely a real and viable training and Frieze used it in Hell to become far stronger as well.

SS Goku in the BoG Arc is stronger than Perfect Cell at minimum, and Dabura. Future Trunks when he fights Goku as a SS2 is far above SPC and Dabura, and he has an edge on Goku using his Enhanced SS2 until Goku uses SSG. If Goku's power level was even 119 million in the BoG arc in base he would still be weaker than the 120 Million PL of Frieza and like others have pointed out Beerus words don't always match up and his sensing ability does not seem accurate.

The claim Goku didn't get much stronger from Buu Arc is just not true.

I don’t deny mental image training is a valid form of training. But the specific issue is which version of Cell Goku was imagining. You’re assuming he’d use Super Perfect Cell because he sensed him, but Goku never actually fought this Cell. He fought a much weaker version, meaning his personal experience comes from that fight a decade ago. For me, this matters the most for mental training, since Goku is doing a recap of his past opponents. If there was such a need to portray them at their strongest, there would be no point in showing Freeza and Cell, only Buu. And even Buu wasn’t at his strongest either.

He wasn't doing a re-cap of his previous fights, he was fighting previous opponents. Goku sensed Cells power and witnessed him go all out against SS2 Gohan. Goku as a SS over 9 years later then beat him with ease and in one blow. You are doing mental gymnastics to try and explain it away and it's just not working.

SS Goku 4 years after the Buu Saga is stronger than Perfect Cell at minimum and Super Perfect Cell at maximum. Regardless of this in the Buu Saga Goku said Dabura was as strong as Cell was, before adding that including Dabura's magic Dabura would be even stronger. He was not referring to Cell only when he fought Cell himself and that would be completely stupid to assume he did considering he sensed Cells power vs Gohan both times. Why would Goku later go on to fight a weaker version of Cell? and Frieza in that scenario would not matter anyway because even in the Android Saga Goku would have easily and quickly killed Mecha Frieza who is stronger than Frieza was on Namek.

[Hugo Boss]

You’re just repeating the same argument without engaging with the actual point I raised. If we were meant to assume Goku always imagines opponents at their absolute peak, then why include Freeza or even Cell at all instead of just Buu? And why wasn’t Buu portrayed at his strongest? I don’t think the training wasn’t about recreating their max power levels but about revisiting opponents Goku actually fought. Very similar to how Daima’s opening does. If you disagree, fine, but just repeating ‘Goku sensed Cell’s power, duh?’ over and over doesn’t actually address that issue.

[QuakingStar]

You’re just repeating the same argument without engaging with the actual point I raised. If we were meant to assume Goku always imagines opponents at their absolute peak, then why include Freeza or even Cell at all instead of just Buu? And why wasn’t Buu portrayed at his strongest? I don’t think the training wasn’t about recreating their max power levels but about revisiting opponents Goku actually fought. Very similar to how Daima’s opening does. If you disagree, fine, but just repeating ‘Goku sensed Cell’s power, duh?’ over and over doesn’t actually address that issue.

Except it does. He is training to face threats Buu level or above. Why would he imagine a weaker version of Cell? For Frieza he was already far stronger than him in the Android Arc, when he was Mecha Frieza which is stronger than Namek Frieza. He only had SS in the Android Arc and the Cell Arc. Training does not start off with the strongest opponent, as we see he goes from zero diffing Frieza, to trading blows with and then killed Cell with a single hit, then he goes to face Buu as a SS who he had to fight as a SS2 before, when he is interrupted by Goten falling. Cell fought back in the mental image meaning its an actual fight in there just that Goku is creating it with what he knows.

[Hugo Boss]

Your argument contradicts itself. You say Goku is training for Buu-level threats or above, yet he didn’t imagine Freeza or Buu in their strongest forms. Freeza was in his 50% form, and Buu was in his purest form, not his most powerful. So if we already know Goku didn’t mentally recreate Freeza and Buu at their peak, why would Cell be the one exception?

Also, Goku never fought Mecha Freeza, Trunks did. Goku only ever fought Freeza in Namek, so even if Mecha Freeza was stronger, that wouldn’t change what Goku personally experienced in battle. Similarly, you say Goku fought Buu as a SS2 before, but that never happened, he went straight to SS3.

Your claim that Cell fought back doesn’t mean Goku was imagining him at his strongest, only that he was treating it as a fight. And again, Goku’s only real fight with Cell was against a weaker version, which is the version he has direct combat experience with. So unless you’re going to actually engage with the points I’m making instead of just repeating your assumption, I don’t see the point in continuing this.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Babidi and Kaioshin don’t sense ki the same way Goku does, but Kaioshin’s knowledge of the universe should still give him a rough idea of what he’s up against. He even name dropped Yakon. If he genuinely thought they were that big of a problem, he wasn’t far beyond them.

As for Piccolo, I agree that for most he was portrayed as a non-factor compared to the Saiyans, but I’m still trying to figure out my instance about his exact placement, since there are equally valid and contradictory evidence for both sides (weaker than Base Saiyans; between Base Saiyans and SS1).

Agreed on both accounts. Pui Pui is questionable, but Yakon is most definitely a threat for Shin. If we go by Babidi's perspective, then Shin is so weak he's not even a factor.

For me there's only two things that place Piccolo below base Saiyans: His admitted inferiority to Shin, which has always been questioned; and his supposed inferiority to base Gohan in RoF (only implicit in the movie, but clear in the anime), whose canon status is questionable.

Interestingly, Goku suggests more than once that he can feel Kaioshin's Ki in Daima. That throws a wrench in the idea that Shin's power cannot be sensed.

The point is: a year before, SS1 Trunks was struggling with Dabra. If his SS1 had already surpassed his initial SS2 level, there would be signs of it. If we are being optimistic here SS1 Trunks may have matched his SS2 from the fight against Dabra.

We're talking about how he compares to CG Gohan, not to his initial SSJ2 level. I imagine Trunks was on pair with Gohan after both trained with the Z Sword, who's at least as strong as Boo Saga Goku based on how they handle the sword. Throw in 1 extra year of training and I think SSJ2 Gohan would be closer to SSJ Trunks than to SSJ2 Trunks.

I think doing some power levels could help explain this.

Spoiler:

CG Goku: 3,000
CG Gohan: 4,000 --> 8,000

BS Gohan: 3,000 --> 6,000
BS Vegeta: 3,600 --> 7,200
BS Goku: 4,500 --> 9,000
Dabura: 3,200

Z Sword Gohan/Trunks: 5,000 --> 10,000
DBS Trunks: 6,000 --> 12,000

So as I said, not necessarily stronger than Gohan, but definitely nearing that. Close enough that I can see some putting SSJ Trunks on the same level as SSJ2 Gohan or slightly above.

As for Super Saiyan multipliers, I agree that SS is intended to be a 50x boost, but the actual way it’s applied in modern material is inconsistent. We can’t just assume base forms skyrocketed so much beyond Freeza’s level. We do see base-focused training with Whis, but nothing suggests it made their base forms reach absurd levels. We actually see Base Goku struggling against Frost, and there’s no strong reason why Frost would be far above Freeza unless we assume he also trained significantly, which isn’t really supported. Also, Base Cabba rivaling Base Vegeta. That’s why I don’t buy the idea that base forms are in a completely different tier in Super.

Maybe. I just think this interpretation shouldn't get in the way of any possible evidence towards the base Saiyans becoming strong, since Dragon Ball never took the idea of people maxing out very seriously.

I'm very fond of the idea that they can tap into some of Super Saiyan's power without transforming myself. It has become very common for them to show golden auras while fighting and for the transformation to be shown as a gradual process. The anime version of Super most likely has the base forms super strong, but that can be attributed to the writers thinking Goku can still tap into SSJG's power without transforming.

[QuakingStar]

Your argument contradicts itself. You say Goku is training for Buu-level threats or above, yet he didn’t imagine Freeza or Buu in their strongest forms. Freeza was in his 50% form, and Buu was in his purest form, not his most powerful. So if we already know Goku didn’t mentally recreate Freeza and Buu at their peak, why would Cell be the one exception?

Also, Goku never fought Mecha Freeza, Trunks did. Goku only ever fought Freeza in Namek, so even if Mecha Freeza was stronger, that wouldn’t change what Goku personally experienced in battle. Similarly, you say Goku fought Buu as a SS2 before, but that never happened, he went straight to SS3.

Your claim that Cell fought back doesn’t mean Goku was imagining him at his strongest, only that he was treating it as a fight. And again, Goku’s only real fight with Cell was against a weaker version, which is the version he has direct combat experience with. So unless you’re going to actually engage with the points I’m making instead of just repeating your assumption, I don’t see the point in continuing this.

Goku tells Trunks he sensed Mecha Frieza and another Ki signature heading to Earth, he knows how strong Mecha Frieza is so no. You made up that he didn't fight Cell in his strongest form and that's all there is to it. There is zero need to face Frieza in his strongest form considering Goku as a SS had already long surpassed that in the Android Arc, Hugo Employee. For DBS continuity they always refer to Kid Buu as the greatest enemy before Beerus shows up so that is why they would face him. Blame Toriyama for saying that Kid Buu was the strongest enemy they faced.

Your argument just isn't good, and now you can move along.

[Hugo Boss]

Hugo Employee.

Blame Toriyama

Your argument just isn't good, and now you can move along.

Maybe. I just think this interpretation shouldn't get in the way of any possible evidence towards the base Saiyans becoming strong, since Dragon Ball never took the idea of people maxing out very seriously.

I'm very fond of the idea that they can tap into some of Super Saiyan's power without transforming myself. It has become very common for them to show golden auras while fighting and for the transformation to be shown as a gradual process. The anime version of Super most likely has the base forms super strong, but that can be attributed to the writers thinking Goku can still tap into SSJG's power without transforming.

That’s why I respect GreatSaiyaman123. He defends his position without talking down to others. I appreciate discussions where people actually engage with arguments rather than brushing them off with dismissiveness.

[ZombieVito]

The anime version of Super most likely has the base forms super strong, but that can be attributed to the writers thinking Goku can still tap into SSJG's power without transforming.

That's probably the reason why SSG didn't appear in the anime again until the ToP. Once the form appeared again in the manga then the anime staff got the memo that the form can be accessed again and included it where they could.

[QuakingStar]

The anime version of Super most likely has the base forms super strong, but that can be attributed to the writers thinking Goku can still tap into SSJG's power without transforming.

That's probably the reason why SSG didn't appear in the anime again until the ToP. Once the form appeared again in the manga then the anime staff got the memo that the form can be accessed again and included it where they could.

For the anime, this is exactly what happened. The manga didn't start to drop the "God-like Saiyan" nonsense until the U6 v U7 tournament where Goku uses it against Hit. We don't see the "God-like Saiyan" state ever again after that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

For the anime, this is exactly what happened. The manga didn't start to drop the "God-like Saiyan" nonsense until the U6 v U7 tournament where Goku uses it against Hit. We don't see the "God-like Saiyan" state ever again after that.

We see it when Copy Vegeta fights SSJ3 Gotenks too, and maybe when Goku spars with Boo.

My prefered take is that Anime Goku did improve significantly to bridge some of the gap between his base and God forms. That should explain why fusion is so OP now despite being nothing next to SSJG, particularly Kefla.

The idea that SSJG is possibly thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 is very awkward when you try to work with power levels. Like, SSJ2 Trunks can hold off SSJR Black despite this being a Raditz vs Freeza type of gap? Is Blue fusion like 1,000,000x stronger than SSJB? Is UI also 1,000,000x Blue since it rivals Blue fusion?

Outside of BoG SSJG never felt like more than 10x SSJ3. I think the only way to conciliate that is either a) buffing up base Goku or b) nerfing SSJG to beneath Super Vegetto level. I think the former is more credible.

[QuakingStar]

For the anime, this is exactly what happened. The manga didn't start to drop the "God-like Saiyan" nonsense until the U6 v U7 tournament where Goku uses it against Hit. We don't see the "God-like Saiyan" state ever again after that.

We see it when Copy Vegeta fights SSJ3 Gotenks too, and maybe when Goku spars with Boo.

My prefered take is that Anime Goku did improve significantly to bridge some of the gap between his base and God forms. That should explain why fusion is so OP now despite being nothing next to SSJG, particularly Kefla.

The idea that SSJG is possibly thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 is very awkward when you try to work with power levels. Like, SSJ2 Trunks can hold off SSJR Black despite this being a Raditz vs Freeza type of gap? Is Blue fusion like 1,000,000x stronger than SSJB? Is UI also 1,000,000x Blue since it rivals Blue fusion?

Outside of BoG SSJG never felt like more than 10x SSJ3. I think the only way to conciliate that is either a) buffing up base Goku or b) nerfing SSJG to beneath Super Vegetto level. I think the former is more credible.

No, in the anime their base forms are simpy so strong by the time of the Copy Vegeta Arc that they were above SS3 Gotenks, they were not using God-like Saiyan because it stopped existing after U6 v U7.

Base Kefla was above SSG Goku, and Base Gogeta was comparable to or above SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. Broly when he first entered Wrath State was stronger than SSG Vegeta when in base he was only stronger than SS Vegeta. So SSG is retconned to being at least a 10x boost over the mastered Super Saiyan. In DBS Potara is stated to be A + B x "tens of times". So it;s clear that after BoG SSG's power leap was retconned to being smaller.

Currently Base Fusion is above SSG for sure. Especially considering that Kale is pathetically weak in her base form in the anime to begin with.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, the Broly movie made the gap between SS and SSG seem small but now that SS4 exists, the gap would have to be bigger.

I'm thinking about SS4 being 4,000 times base and SSG being 10,000.

[QuakingStar]

Yeah, the Broly movie made the gap between SS and SSG seem small but now that SS4 exists, the gap would have to be bigger.

I'm thinking about SS4 being 4,000 times base and SSG being 10,000.

Not necessarily. We should wait to see what the deal with SS4 is before coming to any conclusions on its power. It could very well be as strong or stronger than SSG but Goku loses the ability to use it after Nevas magic truly wears off. We won't know until more is revealed.