Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Hugo Boss
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 26, 2025 10:12 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2025 7:27 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:40 pm For the anime, this is exactly what happened. The manga didn't start to drop the "God-like Saiyan" nonsense until the U6 v U7 tournament where Goku uses it against Hit. We don't see the "God-like Saiyan" state ever again after that.
We see it when Copy Vegeta fights SSJ3 Gotenks too, and maybe when Goku spars with Boo.

My prefered take is that Anime Goku did improve significantly to bridge some of the gap between his base and God forms. That should explain why fusion is so OP now despite being nothing next to SSJG, particularly Kefla.

The idea that SSJG is possibly thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 is very awkward when you try to work with power levels. Like, SSJ2 Trunks can hold off SSJR Black despite this being a Raditz vs Freeza type of gap? Is Blue fusion like 1,000,000x stronger than SSJB? Is UI also 1,000,000x Blue since it rivals Blue fusion?

Outside of BoG SSJG never felt like more than 10x SSJ3. I think the only way to conciliate that is either a) buffing up base Goku or b) nerfing SSJG to beneath Super Vegetto level. I think the former is more credible.
I think we also see that ‘God-like Base’ when Goku fights Beerus disguised as Monaka.

Personally, I lean more toward SSG being nerfed rather than Base getting massive gains. The initial BoG scaling put SSG at 60% of Beerus’ full power, but after all the power-ups Goku has gained since then, including SSB, SSB Kaioken, and UI, it’s hard to believe SSG still holds that level. Otherwise, the entire power structure would be completely broken. I think the subsequent god forms were introduced precisely to scale things more gradually.

The idea that Base Goku improved massively doesn’t fit well with how he performs in Super. He struggles against Frost, fights evenly with Gohan, Krillin, Roshi, Piccolo, and Caulifla, none of whom should logically be near the level of a Boo Arc Super Saiyan. If Base had skyrocketed to such insane heights, none of these fights would make sense.

So between the options you listed, I think ‘nerfing SSG’ is the more consistent approach. The power gaps in Super are already messy, but it makes more sense if SSG was toned down to fit within the scaling rather than Base getting some absurd hidden multiplier.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Feb 26, 2025 11:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2025 10:12 pm The idea that Base Goku improved massively doesn’t fit well with how he performs in Super. He struggles against Frost, fights evenly with Gohan, Krillin, Roshi, Piccolo, and Caulifla, none of whom should logically be near the level of a Boo Arc Super Saiyan. If Base had skyrocketed to such insane heights, none of these fights would make sense.

So between the options you listed, I think ‘nerfing SSG’ is the more consistent approach. The power gaps in Super are already messy, but it makes more sense if SSG was toned down to fit within the scaling rather than Base getting some absurd hidden multiplier.
Eh, there's nothing wrong with those fights?

With Roshi and Krillin, Goku was just testing them. This was confirmed by someone who worked on DBS as far as I remember.

With Piccolo, he managed to endure a massively amped shock wave from him and this is a stronger Piccolo than the one that almost killed SS2 Gohan with ease.

Against base Gohan, he was clearly holding back since with SS2 he was fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan (Before Gohan adapts and grows stronger) and his Ultimate form yields far more than a 100 times boost.

There's no issue with Caulifla.

P.S. There's also his fight with Slim Boo, which should kill any notion that him or Vegeta are not strong in base.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:17 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2025 8:42 pm Yeah, the Broly movie made the gap between SS and SSG seem small but now that SS4 exists, the gap would have to be bigger.

I'm thinking about SS4 being 4,000 times base and SSG being 10,000.
Daima SS4 is barely above SS3. Probably 500x.
I think the minimum multiplier SSG could have is 20,000x = 400 x 50
400x for Base Vegito (who's stated to be stronger than SS3 Goku) and accounting for the 50x multiplier for Super Saiyan.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Feb 27, 2025 11:03 am

DBZ Macky wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:17 am
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2025 8:42 pm Yeah, the Broly movie made the gap between SS and SSG seem small but now that SS4 exists, the gap would have to be bigger.

I'm thinking about SS4 being 4,000 times base and SSG being 10,000.
Daima SS4 is barely above SS3. Probably 500x.
I think the minimum multiplier SSG could have is 20,000x = 400 x 50
400x for Base Vegito (who's stated to be stronger than SS3 Goku) and accounting for the 50x multiplier for Super Saiyan.
You have zero proof for SS4's multiplier, and it makes no sense.

In DBS Potara and Fusion Dance are both is A + B x "Tens of times", then 50x on top of that when they go SS and we see Gogeta do as good or better than SSB Goku and Vegeta and Base Kefla outclass SSG Goku with ease despite Kale being pathetically weak in base, in the anime.

SSG might have had a 20,000x boost in BoG, but that has been retconned and the ToP and Broly movie prove that.

So base Fusion is above SSG, and SS Fusion is above SSB. Gogeta proves this by being able to fight on equal grounds with SS Broly.

We see SSG Vegeta overpower base Broly who overpowered SS Vegeta, then we see Wrath State Broly overpower SSG Vegeta. This shows SSG is around a 10x boost over the mastered SS form and nothing after the Broly movie has contradicted this as it still makes it stronger than SS3.
Last edited by QuakingStar on Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Thu Feb 27, 2025 11:08 am

Whether SSG is below base/SS fusion or not, it's still stronger than Daima SS4.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:07 pm

Yuji wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 11:08 am Whether SSG is below base/SS fusion or not, it's still stronger than Daima SS4.
You have to prove that, which you can't. Because as of BoG SS3 was his final form and his only other thought of option was Fusion. Goku says in episode 19 he doesn't have much time left and could have been referring to Neva's magic. So until more info on this form is found you're using headcanons.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Vice » Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:59 pm

Just throwing out a power level list at random. Don't mind me. I rounded most numbers up to the nearest 0 or 5 because I like nice, even numbers. Also didn't calculate numbers for like injuries or exhaustion or like individual attacks or anything like that.

Dragon Ball Power Levels

The 21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku 20
Tournament 55

Yamcha 15
Tournament 30

Kuririn 15
Tournament 40

Ox-King 50

Bacterian 15

Ranfan 20

Giran 35

Namu 45

Master Roshi 55
Buff Form 135


The Red Ribbon Army and Fortuneteller Baba's Tournament

Goku 55
Karin Training 105

Colonel Silver 20

General White 10

General Blue 50

Staff Officer Black 15
Battle Jacket 75

Kuririn 40

Major Metallitron 45

Ninja Murasaki 20

Android 8 115

Buyon 40

Pirate Robot 55

Bora 45

Karin 160

Tao Pai Pai 90

Yamcha 30

Dracula Man 25

Invisible Man 20

Mummy Man 55

Devil Man 75

Grandpa Gohan 100


The 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and Piccolo Daimao Returns

Goku 170
Ultra Divine Water 260

Kuririn 110

Master Roshi 140

Yamcha 100

King Choppa 95

Chaozu 95

Man Wolf 20

Panput 40

Tenshinhan 170

Yajirobe 130

Tenshinhan 170

Cymbal 60

Tambourine 140

Drum 200

Mr. Popo 290

Kami 315

Piccolo Daimao 215
Young 260


The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku 375

Kuririn 195

Tenshinhan 240

Yamcha 170

Tao Pai Pai 190

Chichi 100

Kami 315

Chaozu 130

King Choppa 110

Piccolo 370


Saiyan Arc

Raditz 1,200

Goku 415
Training w/North Kaio 8,000
Kaio-Ken 16,000
Kaio-Ken x3 24,000
Kaio-Ken x4 32,000

Piccolo 410
1 Year Training 3,500

Gohan 1
Upset 710
Angry 1,305
1 Year Training 1,100
Enraged 2,800
Oozaru 11,000

Enma 2,000

North Kaio 3,000

Yajirobe 130
1 Year Training 790

Yamcha 175
1 Year Training 1,500

Tenshinhan 250
1 Year Training 1,800

Kuririn 205
1 Year Training 1,800

Chaozu 145
1 Year Training 610

Master Roshi 140

Nappa 7,500

Vegeta 18,000
Oozaru 180,000


Freeza Arc

Goku 90,000
Kaio-Ken 180,000
Zenkai (Ginyu) 3,000,000
Kaio-Ken x10 30,000,000
Kaio-Ken x20 60,000,000
Super Saiyan 150,000,000

Vegeta 24,000
Zenkai (Zarbon) 30,000
Zenkai (Reacoom) 70,000
Rested 300,000
Zenkai (Kuririn) 2,400,000

Cui 18,000

Dodoria 21,000

Zarbon 22,000
Transformed 28,000

Freeza's Soldiers 500 - 1,500

Young Namekians 3,000

Kuririn 1,800
Potential Unlocked 13,000
Potential Tapped 35,000

Gohan 1,800
Potential Unlocked 15,000
Zenkai (Reacoom) 26,000
Zenkai (Freeza) 150,000

Gurd 4,000

Reacoom 45,000

Butta 45,000

Jheese 45,000

Captain Ginyu 120,000
In Goku's Body 23,000

Nail 42,000

Piccolo 80,000
Merged w/Nail 1,200,000

Freeza 530,000
Second Form 1,100,000
Third Form 2,200,000
Fourth Form 3,000,000
50% Full Power 60,000,000
Full Power 120,000,000


Cell Arc

Goku 3,400,000
Super Saiyan 170,000,000
3 Years Later 4,800,000
Super Saiyan 240,000,000
RoSaT Training 60,000,000
Super Saiyan 3,000,000,000

Gohan 150,000
3 Years Later 3,500,000
RoSaT Training 64,000,000
Super Saiyan 3,200,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 6,500,000,000

Vegeta 2,800,000
3 Years Later 4,600,000
Super Saiyan 230,000,000
RoSaT 14,000,000
Super Saiyan 700,000,000
Ascended 950,000,000
2nd RoSaT 38,000,000
Super Saiyan 1,900,000,000

Trunks 3,200,000
Super Saiyan 160,000,000
3 Years Later 4,000,000
Super Saiyan 200,000,000
RoSaT Training 13,000,000
Super Saiyan 650,000,000
Ascended 900,000,000
Ultra 1,400,000,000
2nd RoSaT 36,000,000
Super Saiyan 1,800,000,000

Piccolo 2,500,000
3 Years Later 140,000,000
Merged w/Kami 325,000,000
RoSaT Training 1,200,000,000

Kuririn 67,000
3 Years Later 1,800,000

Tenshinhan 64,000
3 Years Later 1,700,000

Yamcha 40,000
3 Years Later 1,000,000

Freeza 130,000,000

King Cold 100,000,000

Dr. Gero 85,000,000

Android 19 70,000,000

Android 18 300,000,000

Android 17 325,000,000

Android 16 450,000,000

Mr. Satan 15

Cell Jr.'s 2,000,000,000

Imperfect Cell 250,000,000
Humans Absorbed 450,000,000
Semi-Perfect 800,000,000
Perfect 4,500,000,000
Ultra Perfect 5,500,000,000
Super Perfect 6,500,000,000


Boo Arc

Goku 80,000,000
Super Saiyan 4,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 8,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 32,000,000,000

Vegeta 70,000,000
Super Saiyan 3,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 7,000,000,000
Majin 8,000,000,000

Gohan 56,000,000
Super Saiyan 2,800,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 5,600,000,000
Mystic 75,000,000,000

Goten 20,000,000
Super Saiyan 1,000,000,000

Trunks 22,000,000
Super Saiyan 1,100,000,000

Gotenks 180,000,000
Super Saiyan 9,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 18,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 72,000,000,000

Piccolo 1,700,000,000

Kuririn 1,800,000

Android 18 300,000,000

Mr. Satan 15

Videl 20

Yamu 70

Spopovitch 65

Kaioshin 2,200,000,000

Kibito 50,000,000

Pocus 500,000

Yakon 60,000,000

Dabra 2,900,000,000

Fat Boo 25,000,000,000
Good Boo 10,000,000,000
Evil Boo 15,000,000,000
Super Boo 60,000,000,000
Super Gotenks Boo 132,000,000,000
Super Piccolo Boo 62,000,000,000
Super Gohan Boo 135,000,000,000
Buff Boo 65,000,000,000
Kid Boo 30,000,000,000

Vegerot 3,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 150,000,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2025 11:59 pm Eh, there's nothing wrong with those fights?

With Roshi and Krillin, Goku was just testing them. This was confirmed by someone who worked on DBS as far as I remember.

With Piccolo, he managed to endure a massively amped shock wave from him and this is a stronger Piccolo than the one that almost killed SS2 Gohan with ease.

Against base Gohan, he was clearly holding back since with SS2 he was fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan (Before Gohan adapts and grows stronger) and his Ultimate form yields far more than a 100 times boost.

There's no issue with Caulifla.

P.S. There's also his fight with Slim Boo, which should kill any notion that him or Vegeta are not strong in base.
I agree that Goku and Gohan were testing their opponents, but even accounting for that, some of these fights still raise scaling questions.

• Gohan vs. Goku (Ep. 75): Gohan starts in base and fights on equal footing with Goku’s base. Even when they transform into Super Saiyans, Gohan gives Goku a solid fight. If base Goku had really gotten some huge boost beyond Boo arc levels, then base Gohan (who hadn’t regained his old strength yet) shouldn’t have been anywhere near him.

• Krillin vs. Gohan (Ep. 84): Krillin holding his own against Gohan, even before Gohan reawakened his instincts, is already surprising, considering the gap between them in Z. If Gohan was that out of practice, then his base level must have been way lower than expected. Otherwise, even with skill and experience, Krillin wouldn’t have stood a chance.

• Krillin vs. Goku (Ep. 84): Krillin is still tired from fighting Gohan, but he goes on to fight Goku. This implies that Krillin actually did well against Goku. That’s surprising because if base Goku was beyond Boo arc levels, Krillin should have been stomped. Instead, he was able to push Goku to some degree.

• Goku vs. Slim Boo (Ep. 85): Boo had been training and gotten stronger, but he still took down base Goku easily. If base Goku had the “God-like state” active all the time, maybe Boo shouldn’t have overwhelmed him like that. I will give you that.

• Gohan vs. Piccolo (Ep. 88): Piccolo’s performance against SS2 Gohan looked impressive, but Goku himself told Piccolo that Gohan was rusty and needed to regain his old strength. If anything, that just shows how much weaker Gohan was at that point rather than how much stronger Piccolo became.

• Goku vs. Roshi (Ep. 89): Goku is actually impressed by Roshi’s power and received help from Chiaotzu to defeat him. If base Goku was as strong as some people say, Roshi shouldn’t have made any impression on him at all.

• Goku & Tenshinhan vs. Gohan & Piccolo (Ep. 90): another case where, yeah, Goku was holding back and Tenshinhan was a non-factor, but the fact that they even exchanged blows meaningfully suggests their base levels weren’t that far apart. Piccolo is clearly stronger than his past self, but that still doesn’t mean base Goku is so far removed from him. And since Ultimate is supposed to be a huge boost beyond SS2, that should mean initial Ultimate Gohan wasn’t anywhere near his peak either.

• Goku vs. Caulifla (Ep. 113): Skill and experience played a major role, not just raw power. Goku, while still recovering, held his own against Caulifla’s SS2 in base due to his superior technique. But as soon as she adapted and improved mid-fight, he was forced to transform. This mirrors what happened with Piccolo vs. SS2 Gohan (Ep. 88), where Piccolo’s superior skill and tactics allowed him to dominate despite the power gap. It also lines up with Krillin doing well against base Gohan (Ep. 84) and even managing to outmaneuver base Goku at times.

The Tournament of Power arc, in general, played with the idea that strategy, skill, and adaptability could allow weaker characters to hold their own against stronger opponents, at least for a while, but the fights all make more sense if base Goku is still within a reasonable range, not some God-tier level. If anything, the writing just treats fights more flexibly depending on the scene.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Feb 27, 2025 6:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm I agree that Goku and Gohan were testing their opponents, but even accounting for that, some of these fights still raise scaling questions.

• Gohan vs. Goku (Ep. 75): Gohan starts in base and fights on equal footing with Goku’s base. Even when they transform into Super Saiyans, Gohan gives Goku a solid fight. If base Goku had really gotten some huge boost beyond Boo arc levels, then base Gohan (who hadn’t regained his old strength yet) shouldn’t have been anywhere near him.
Goku was just fooling around. Gohan is later revealed to be exactly as strong as his Boo arc peak, sans Ultimate of course.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm • Krillin vs. Gohan (Ep. 84): Krillin holding his own against Gohan, even before Gohan reawakened his instincts, is already surprising, considering the gap between them in Z. If Gohan was that out of practice, then his base level must have been way lower than expected. Otherwise, even with skill and experience, Krillin wouldn’t have stood a chance.
Krillin didn't stand a chance in a straight fight. Gohan blocked all of his attacks and then swatted him away with 2 punches. Krillin won that fight entirely on skill and tactics alone. There's also the fact Krillin got stronger so I don't see the issue with him approaching Gohan's base level from the Boo arc.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm • Krillin vs. Goku (Ep. 84): Krillin is still tired from fighting Gohan, but he goes on to fight Goku. This implies that Krillin actually did well against Goku. That’s surprising because if base Goku was beyond Boo arc levels, Krillin should have been stomped. Instead, he was able to push Goku to some degree.
Same as with Gohan, Krillin managed to hold on with skill and tactics.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm • Goku vs. Slim Boo (Ep. 85): Boo had been training and gotten stronger, but he still took down base Goku easily. If base Goku had the “God-like state” active all the time, maybe Boo shouldn’t have overwhelmed him like that. I will give you that.
Slim Boo only beat Goku after catching him off guard. They were very much evenly matched when they clashed.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm • Gohan vs. Piccolo (Ep. 88): Piccolo’s performance against SS2 Gohan looked impressive, but Goku himself told Piccolo that Gohan was rusty and needed to regain his old strength. If anything, that just shows how much weaker Gohan was at that point rather than how much stronger Piccolo became.
Gohan's power wasn't rusty. He's exactly as strong as his post Z Sword training self. He just needed to unlock his Ultimate form again.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm • Goku vs. Roshi (Ep. 89): Goku is actually impressed by Roshi’s power and received help from Chiaotzu to defeat him. If base Goku was as strong as some people say, Roshi shouldn’t have made any impression on him at all.
Well, of course he's going to be impressed. Last time he saw him, Roshi was like Nappa level. Now he's in the tens of millions.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm • Goku & Tenshinhan vs. Gohan & Piccolo (Ep. 90): another case where, yeah, Goku was holding back and Tenshinhan was a non-factor, but the fact that they even exchanged blows meaningfully suggests their base levels weren’t that far apart. Piccolo is clearly stronger than his past self, but that still doesn’t mean base Goku is so far removed from him. And since Ultimate is supposed to be a huge boost beyond SS2, that should mean initial Ultimate Gohan wasn’t anywhere near his peak either.
Their bases being close is an impossibility. For that to be true, Gohan's Ultimate form would need to have the same or lower multiplier than SS2.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:58 pm • Goku vs. Caulifla (Ep. 113): Skill and experience played a major role, not just raw power. Goku, while still recovering, held his own against Caulifla’s SS2 in base due to his superior technique. But as soon as she adapted and improved mid-fight, he was forced to transform. This mirrors what happened with Piccolo vs. SS2 Gohan (Ep. 88), where Piccolo’s superior skill and tactics allowed him to dominate despite the power gap. It also lines up with Krillin doing well against base Gohan (Ep. 84) and even managing to outmaneuver base Goku at times.
That's not what happens with Gohan vs Piccolo. Gohan is shocked at his power. Piccolo clearly surpassed SS2 Gohan.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Feb 27, 2025 10:22 pm

Re: Goku vs. Gohan (Ep. 75)
Gohan gave Goku a pretty good fight, too good, in fact. Their battle devastated the field, which wouldn’t happen if the power gap was enormous. Goku might have been going easy at first, but he wasn’t just standing around either. After the Zen Exhibition Match, Goku even told Piccolo that Gohan had fought well but was still out of shape, meaning Gohan had the strength but wasn’t making full use of it. That explains why Gohan could match Goku so well in their spar despite later needing training to regain his full fighting form.

Re: Krillin vs. Gohan (Ep. 84) & Krillin vs. Goku (Ep. 84)
If Krillin was merely approaching Gohan’s Boo arc base level, then how would skill and tactics alone let him hold his own against Goku, who is supposedly way stronger than that? Even when Goku transformed into Super Saiyan, Krillin wasn’t immediately obliterated. If base Goku were leagues beyond Boo arc levels, then a tired Krillin wouldn’t have looked remotely competitive in either of those fights. The scene makes a lot more sense if Goku’s base isn’t absurdly higher.

Re: Goku vs. Slim Boo (Ep. 85)
The fight wasn’t as “even” as you make it sound. Boo disrupted Goku’s defenses almost immediately and took him down before he could react. If Goku was on equal footing, he should have been able to respond properly. We also don’t know how the fight would have played out if Goku had been given time to transform, as he did against Krillin. The fight ended too early before we could see where the power balance truly stood.

Re: Gohan vs. Piccolo (Ep. 88)
Gohan having his Boo arc power doesn’t mean he was fighting at that level. Piccolo himself pointed out that Gohan’s mindset was holding him back, his strong desire to protect others was actually a hindrance. That’s why Piccolo initially dominated SS2 Gohan, not because he surpassed him in raw power. In a few hours, after adjusting his mentality, Gohan’s performance drastically improved, showing that Piccolo was really only competing with base Gohan, not SS2. That same issue also happened with Caulifla, she got exponentially stronger just by fixing her fighting approach. The way the Tournament of Power arc was written makes Super Saiyan 2 seem more like a minor increase when compared to the importance of skill and battle awareness.

Re: Goku vs. Roshi (Ep. 89)
If Roshi had reached a power level in the tens of millions and base Goku was having a close even battle with him, then doesn’t that just reinforce that Goku’s base is still close to his Boo arc level? Goku didn’t obliterate Roshi with a casual kamehameha, he actually had to put in effort. The gap between him and Goku wasn’t astronomical.

Re: Goku & Tenshinhan vs. Gohan & Piccolo (Ep. 90)
I don’t see why you think base Goku and base Gohan being close is an impossibility. Their fight looked way closer than Goku vs. Roshi, and the speed of their exchanges was so intense that Tenshinhan couldn’t even keep up. Ultimate Gohan starting off against SS2 Goku isn’t a decisive argument either, since later in the fight he was rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. It makes sense that Gohan wasn’t immediately going all-out against a form that he knew was Goku holding back on purpose. Even Goku noted that Gohan was still holding back during their Kamehameha clash.

Re: Goku vs. Caulifla (Ep. 113)
You’re misunderstanding my point. Goku’s superior skill allowed him to hold his own against Caulifla’s SS2 in base at first, but once she adapted and improved, he was forced to transform. That directly parallels what happened with Piccolo vs. SS2 Gohan. Gohan’s lack of sharpness made him look weaker until he adjusted. So no, I don’t think Piccolo outright surpassed SS2 Gohan in raw power, he was just taking advantage of Gohan’s unrefined state, just like how Caulifla’s lack of experience initially held her back despite her raw power.

The overall trend in the Tournament of Power arc is that skill, adaptability, cooperation and fighting instincts were emphasized just as much as raw power. That’s why we see fights where characters who should be at a massive disadvantage manage to put up a solid performance, because the writing prioritized flexibility in battle rather than strict power scaling. If base Goku were truly in a completely different tier, we wouldn’t be seeing characters like Krillin, Roshi, and even the lackluster Gohan keeping up with him at times.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Feb 28, 2025 8:11 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 10:22 pm Re: Goku vs. Gohan (Ep. 75)
Gohan gave Goku a pretty good fight, too good, in fact. Their battle devastated the field, which wouldn’t happen if the power gap was enormous. Goku might have been going easy at first, but he wasn’t just standing around either. After the Zen Exhibition Match, Goku even told Piccolo that Gohan had fought well but was still out of shape, meaning Gohan had the strength but wasn’t making full use of it. That explains why Gohan could match Goku so well in their spar despite later needing training to regain his full fighting form.

Re: Krillin vs. Gohan (Ep. 84) & Krillin vs. Goku (Ep. 84)
If Krillin was merely approaching Gohan’s Boo arc base level, then how would skill and tactics alone let him hold his own against Goku, who is supposedly way stronger than that? Even when Goku transformed into Super Saiyan, Krillin wasn’t immediately obliterated. If base Goku were leagues beyond Boo arc levels, then a tired Krillin wouldn’t have looked remotely competitive in either of those fights. The scene makes a lot more sense if Goku’s base isn’t absurdly higher.

Re: Goku vs. Slim Boo (Ep. 85)
The fight wasn’t as “even” as you make it sound. Boo disrupted Goku’s defenses almost immediately and took him down before he could react. If Goku was on equal footing, he should have been able to respond properly. We also don’t know how the fight would have played out if Goku had been given time to transform, as he did against Krillin. The fight ended too early before we could see where the power balance truly stood.

Re: Gohan vs. Piccolo (Ep. 88)
Gohan having his Boo arc power doesn’t mean he was fighting at that level. Piccolo himself pointed out that Gohan’s mindset was holding him back, his strong desire to protect others was actually a hindrance. That’s why Piccolo initially dominated SS2 Gohan, not because he surpassed him in raw power. In a few hours, after adjusting his mentality, Gohan’s performance drastically improved, showing that Piccolo was really only competing with base Gohan, not SS2. That same issue also happened with Caulifla, she got exponentially stronger just by fixing her fighting approach. The way the Tournament of Power arc was written makes Super Saiyan 2 seem more like a minor increase when compared to the importance of skill and battle awareness.

Re: Goku vs. Roshi (Ep. 89)
If Roshi had reached a power level in the tens of millions and base Goku was having a close even battle with him, then doesn’t that just reinforce that Goku’s base is still close to his Boo arc level? Goku didn’t obliterate Roshi with a casual kamehameha, he actually had to put in effort. The gap between him and Goku wasn’t astronomical.

Re: Goku & Tenshinhan vs. Gohan & Piccolo (Ep. 90)
I don’t see why you think base Goku and base Gohan being close is an impossibility. Their fight looked way closer than Goku vs. Roshi, and the speed of their exchanges was so intense that Tenshinhan couldn’t even keep up. Ultimate Gohan starting off against SS2 Goku isn’t a decisive argument either, since later in the fight he was rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. It makes sense that Gohan wasn’t immediately going all-out against a form that he knew was Goku holding back on purpose. Even Goku noted that Gohan was still holding back during their Kamehameha clash.

Re: Goku vs. Caulifla (Ep. 113)
You’re misunderstanding my point. Goku’s superior skill allowed him to hold his own against Caulifla’s SS2 in base at first, but once she adapted and improved, he was forced to transform. That directly parallels what happened with Piccolo vs. SS2 Gohan. Gohan’s lack of sharpness made him look weaker until he adjusted. So no, I don’t think Piccolo outright surpassed SS2 Gohan in raw power, he was just taking advantage of Gohan’s unrefined state, just like how Caulifla’s lack of experience initially held her back despite her raw power.

The overall trend in the Tournament of Power arc is that skill, adaptability, cooperation and fighting instincts were emphasized just as much as raw power. That’s why we see fights where characters who should be at a massive disadvantage manage to put up a solid performance, because the writing prioritized flexibility in battle rather than strict power scaling. If base Goku were truly in a completely different tier, we wouldn’t be seeing characters like Krillin, Roshi, and even the lackluster Gohan keeping up with him at times.
Interesting, so how would you rank those characters if you have to give them numbers?

In the manga there's that panel where pre-ToP Goku deflects some bullets but is scraped by one of them and calls himself rusty... was that also in the anime?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:40 am

Good question. If we go by strict battle power, the numbers wouldn’t tell the full story. So I’ll rank them across different attributes:

I think this breakdown makes sense of why some of these characters could put up decent fights despite being much weaker in raw power. Skill and tactical thinking gave them ways to compensate, whereas Caulifla thrived on adaptability but lacked refined technique.

Re: The Bullet Scene
Yeah, that moment was in Episode 77. Goku got grazed by a bullet and even said he couldn’t complain about Krillin anymore. So, Pre-ToP Goku was also a little rusty before getting back into serious fighting. That was the anime’s version of the same idea in the manga.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Feb 28, 2025 3:19 pm

Well, everyone. Toriyama made it pretty clear he did not care if he broke some canon with Daima. Goku knew there was another transformation within he just wasn't sure if he could do it or how. Neva simply awakened it for him. Shin and Kibito did not refuse either. This directly contradicts the BoG Arc. I'm hoping in the new DBS Arc they address all of this.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Perfect Cell » Fri Feb 28, 2025 11:40 pm

Power levels Z updated + 90% of Movies

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Mar 05, 2025 2:19 pm

I was trying to make a list that reconciles both SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku (FT Saga) and SSJ3 Goku (Post Boo Saga) > Ultimate Gohan, but it doesn’t quite add up. Besides SSJ2 Gohan > SSJ2 Gotenks being extremely questionable, Goku does have quite a gap to close to be in the position of strongest that Daima and Super put him in: He’s no match for Super Boo who’s no match for Gohan.

SSJ Goku (Boo): 50
SSJ2 Kid Gohan: 90
SSJ2 Goku (Boo): 100
SSJ3 Goku (Boo): 400

SSJ3 Goku in the Boo Saga is at most a 720 (90x2x4). So SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Boo would be 500, and Gohan a 600?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 05, 2025 5:16 pm

The issue is that Super and later Daima seem to operate under a weird revisionist history where Goku and Vegeta were always the strongest in the fight against Majin Boo, despite multiple moments contradicting that.

If they had explicitly stated that Goku and Vegeta surpassed Gohan and Gotenks after Boo’s defeat, it’d be a stretch but still somewhat plausible. But instead, it feels like the whole narrative is shifting to make it seem like they were always at the top, which just doesn’t hold up unless you start rewriting key parts of Boo arc.

I think what happened is that Toriyama likely didn’t remember the original power scaling dynamics and just went along with the idea that Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, leading to the inconsistencies we see in Super and Daima.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Mar 06, 2025 12:35 pm

Just saw the DBS Volume 24 cover, Broly's Controlled SS is his LSS but controlled. There goes the "It's only his normal SS form controlled" peoples arguments crushed yet again.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Mar 06, 2025 12:42 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2025 12:35 pm Just saw the DBS Volume 24 cover, Broly's Controlled SS is his LSS but controlled. There goes the "It's only his normal SS form controlled" peoples arguments crushed yet again.
Wasn't the Green hair not present in the manga?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Mar 06, 2025 1:38 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2025 12:42 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2025 12:35 pm Just saw the DBS Volume 24 cover, Broly's Controlled SS is his LSS but controlled. There goes the "It's only his normal SS form controlled" peoples arguments crushed yet again.
Wasn't the Green hair not present in the manga?
Originally yes, for Broly. But it seems they have decided to change that since this is the Official Volume 24 cover.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Mar 06, 2025 1:53 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2025 1:38 pm Originally yes, for Broly. But it seems they have decided to change that since this is the Official Volume 24 cover.
Good. It never made sense for him to not have it there as well.

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