Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

For the anime, this is exactly what happened. The manga didn't start to drop the "God-like Saiyan" nonsense until the U6 v U7 tournament where Goku uses it against Hit. We don't see the "God-like Saiyan" state ever again after that.

We see it when Copy Vegeta fights SSJ3 Gotenks too, and maybe when Goku spars with Boo.

My prefered take is that Anime Goku did improve significantly to bridge some of the gap between his base and God forms. That should explain why fusion is so OP now despite being nothing next to SSJG, particularly Kefla.

The idea that SSJG is possibly thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 is very awkward when you try to work with power levels. Like, SSJ2 Trunks can hold off SSJR Black despite this being a Raditz vs Freeza type of gap? Is Blue fusion like 1,000,000x stronger than SSJB? Is UI also 1,000,000x Blue since it rivals Blue fusion?

Outside of BoG SSJG never felt like more than 10x SSJ3. I think the only way to conciliate that is either a) buffing up base Goku or b) nerfing SSJG to beneath Super Vegetto level. I think the former is more credible.

I think we also see that ‘God-like Base’ when Goku fights Beerus disguised as Monaka.

Personally, I lean more toward SSG being nerfed rather than Base getting massive gains. The initial BoG scaling put SSG at 60% of Beerus’ full power, but after all the power-ups Goku has gained since then, including SSB, SSB Kaioken, and UI, it’s hard to believe SSG still holds that level. Otherwise, the entire power structure would be completely broken. I think the subsequent god forms were introduced precisely to scale things more gradually.

The idea that Base Goku improved massively doesn’t fit well with how he performs in Super. He struggles against Frost, fights evenly with Gohan, Krillin, Roshi, Piccolo, and Caulifla, none of whom should logically be near the level of a Boo Arc Super Saiyan. If Base had skyrocketed to such insane heights, none of these fights would make sense.

So between the options you listed, I think ‘nerfing SSG’ is the more consistent approach. The power gaps in Super are already messy, but it makes more sense if SSG was toned down to fit within the scaling rather than Base getting some absurd hidden multiplier.

[ZombieVito]

The idea that Base Goku improved massively doesn’t fit well with how he performs in Super. He struggles against Frost, fights evenly with Gohan, Krillin, Roshi, Piccolo, and Caulifla, none of whom should logically be near the level of a Boo Arc Super Saiyan. If Base had skyrocketed to such insane heights, none of these fights would make sense.

So between the options you listed, I think ‘nerfing SSG’ is the more consistent approach. The power gaps in Super are already messy, but it makes more sense if SSG was toned down to fit within the scaling rather than Base getting some absurd hidden multiplier.

Eh, there's nothing wrong with those fights?

With Roshi and Krillin, Goku was just testing them. This was confirmed by someone who worked on DBS as far as I remember.

With Piccolo, he managed to endure a massively amped shock wave from him and this is a stronger Piccolo than the one that almost killed SS2 Gohan with ease.

Against base Gohan, he was clearly holding back since with SS2 he was fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan (Before Gohan adapts and grows stronger) and his Ultimate form yields far more than a 100 times boost.

There's no issue with Caulifla.

P.S. There's also his fight with Slim Boo, which should kill any notion that him or Vegeta are not strong in base.

[DBZ Macky]

Yeah, the Broly movie made the gap between SS and SSG seem small but now that SS4 exists, the gap would have to be bigger.

I'm thinking about SS4 being 4,000 times base and SSG being 10,000.

Daima SS4 is barely above SS3. Probably 500x.
I think the minimum multiplier SSG could have is 20,000x = 400 x 50
400x for Base Vegito (who's stated to be stronger than SS3 Goku) and accounting for the 50x multiplier for Super Saiyan.

[QuakingStar]

Yeah, the Broly movie made the gap between SS and SSG seem small but now that SS4 exists, the gap would have to be bigger.

I'm thinking about SS4 being 4,000 times base and SSG being 10,000.

Daima SS4 is barely above SS3. Probably 500x.
I think the minimum multiplier SSG could have is 20,000x = 400 x 50
400x for Base Vegito (who's stated to be stronger than SS3 Goku) and accounting for the 50x multiplier for Super Saiyan.

You have zero proof for SS4's multiplier, and it makes no sense.

In DBS Potara and Fusion Dance are both is A + B x "Tens of times", then 50x on top of that when they go SS and we see Gogeta do as good or better than SSB Goku and Vegeta and Base Kefla outclass SSG Goku with ease despite Kale being pathetically weak in base, in the anime.

SSG might have had a 20,000x boost in BoG, but that has been retconned and the ToP and Broly movie prove that.

So base Fusion is above SSG, and SS Fusion is above SSB. Gogeta proves this by being able to fight on equal grounds with SS Broly.

We see SSG Vegeta overpower base Broly who overpowered SS Vegeta, then we see Wrath State Broly overpower SSG Vegeta. This shows SSG is around a 10x boost over the mastered SS form and nothing after the Broly movie has contradicted this as it still makes it stronger than SS3.

[Yuji]

Whether SSG is below base/SS fusion or not, it's still stronger than Daima SS4.

[QuakingStar]

Whether SSG is below base/SS fusion or not, it's still stronger than Daima SS4.

You have to prove that, which you can't. Because as of BoG SS3 was his final form and his only other thought of option was Fusion. Goku says in episode 19 he doesn't have much time left and could have been referring to Neva's magic. So until more info on this form is found you're using headcanons.

[Vice]

Just throwing out a power level list at random. Don't mind me. I rounded most numbers up to the nearest 0 or 5 because I like nice, even numbers. Also didn't calculate numbers for like injuries or exhaustion or like individual attacks or anything like that.

Dragon Ball Power Levels

The 21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku 20
Tournament 55

Yamcha 15
Tournament 30

Kuririn 15
Tournament 40

Ox-King 50

Bacterian 15

Ranfan 20

Giran 35

Namu 45

Master Roshi 55
Buff Form 135


The Red Ribbon Army and Fortuneteller Baba's Tournament

Goku 55
Karin Training 105

Colonel Silver 20

General White 10

General Blue 50

Staff Officer Black 15
Battle Jacket 75

Kuririn 40

Major Metallitron 45

Ninja Murasaki 20

Android 8 115

Buyon 40

Pirate Robot 55

Bora 45

Karin 160

Tao Pai Pai 90

Yamcha 30

Dracula Man 25

Invisible Man 20

Mummy Man 55

Devil Man 75

Grandpa Gohan 100


The 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and Piccolo Daimao Returns

Goku 170
Ultra Divine Water 260

Kuririn 110

Master Roshi 140

Yamcha 100

King Choppa 95

Chaozu 95

Man Wolf 20

Panput 40

Tenshinhan 170

Yajirobe 130

Tenshinhan 170

Cymbal 60

Tambourine 140

Drum 200

Mr. Popo 290

Kami 315

Piccolo Daimao 215
Young 260


The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku 375

Kuririn 195

Tenshinhan 240

Yamcha 170

Tao Pai Pai 190

Chichi 100

Kami 315

Chaozu 130

King Choppa 110

Piccolo 370


Saiyan Arc

Raditz 1,200

Goku 415
Training w/North Kaio 8,000
Kaio-Ken 16,000
Kaio-Ken x3 24,000
Kaio-Ken x4 32,000

Piccolo 410
1 Year Training 3,500

Gohan 1
Upset 710
Angry 1,305
1 Year Training 1,100
Enraged 2,800
Oozaru 11,000

Enma 2,000

North Kaio 3,000

Yajirobe 130
1 Year Training 790

Yamcha 175
1 Year Training 1,500

Tenshinhan 250
1 Year Training 1,800

Kuririn 205
1 Year Training 1,800

Chaozu 145
1 Year Training 610

Master Roshi 140

Nappa 7,500

Vegeta 18,000
Oozaru 180,000


Freeza Arc

Goku 90,000
Kaio-Ken 180,000
Zenkai (Ginyu) 3,000,000
Kaio-Ken x10 30,000,000
Kaio-Ken x20 60,000,000
Super Saiyan 150,000,000

Vegeta 24,000
Zenkai (Zarbon) 30,000
Zenkai (Reacoom) 70,000
Rested 300,000
Zenkai (Kuririn) 2,400,000

Cui 18,000

Dodoria 21,000

Zarbon 22,000
Transformed 28,000

Freeza's Soldiers 500 - 1,500

Young Namekians 3,000

Kuririn 1,800
Potential Unlocked 13,000
Potential Tapped 35,000

Gohan 1,800
Potential Unlocked 15,000
Zenkai (Reacoom) 26,000
Zenkai (Freeza) 150,000

Gurd 4,000

Reacoom 45,000

Butta 45,000

Jheese 45,000

Captain Ginyu 120,000
In Goku's Body 23,000

Nail 42,000

Piccolo 80,000
Merged w/Nail 1,200,000

Freeza 530,000
Second Form 1,100,000
Third Form 2,200,000
Fourth Form 3,000,000
50% Full Power 60,000,000
Full Power 120,000,000


Cell Arc

Goku 3,400,000
Super Saiyan 170,000,000
3 Years Later 4,800,000
Super Saiyan 240,000,000
RoSaT Training 60,000,000
Super Saiyan 3,000,000,000

Gohan 150,000
3 Years Later 3,500,000
RoSaT Training 64,000,000
Super Saiyan 3,200,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 6,500,000,000

Vegeta 2,800,000
3 Years Later 4,600,000
Super Saiyan 230,000,000
RoSaT 14,000,000
Super Saiyan 700,000,000
Ascended 950,000,000
2nd RoSaT 38,000,000
Super Saiyan 1,900,000,000

Trunks 3,200,000
Super Saiyan 160,000,000
3 Years Later 4,000,000
Super Saiyan 200,000,000
RoSaT Training 13,000,000
Super Saiyan 650,000,000
Ascended 900,000,000
Ultra 1,400,000,000
2nd RoSaT 36,000,000
Super Saiyan 1,800,000,000

Piccolo 2,500,000
3 Years Later 140,000,000
Merged w/Kami 325,000,000
RoSaT Training 1,200,000,000

Kuririn 67,000
3 Years Later 1,800,000

Tenshinhan 64,000
3 Years Later 1,700,000

Yamcha 40,000
3 Years Later 1,000,000

Freeza 130,000,000

King Cold 100,000,000

Dr. Gero 85,000,000

Android 19 70,000,000

Android 18 300,000,000

Android 17 325,000,000

Android 16 450,000,000

Mr. Satan 15

Cell Jr.'s 2,000,000,000

Imperfect Cell 250,000,000
Humans Absorbed 450,000,000
Semi-Perfect 800,000,000
Perfect 4,500,000,000
Ultra Perfect 5,500,000,000
Super Perfect 6,500,000,000


Boo Arc

Goku 80,000,000
Super Saiyan 4,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 8,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 32,000,000,000

Vegeta 70,000,000
Super Saiyan 3,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 7,000,000,000
Majin 8,000,000,000

Gohan 56,000,000
Super Saiyan 2,800,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 5,600,000,000
Mystic 75,000,000,000

Goten 20,000,000
Super Saiyan 1,000,000,000

Trunks 22,000,000
Super Saiyan 1,100,000,000

Gotenks 180,000,000
Super Saiyan 9,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 18,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 72,000,000,000

Piccolo 1,700,000,000

Kuririn 1,800,000

Android 18 300,000,000

Mr. Satan 15

Videl 20

Yamu 70

Spopovitch 65

Kaioshin 2,200,000,000

Kibito 50,000,000

Pocus 500,000

Yakon 60,000,000

Dabra 2,900,000,000

Fat Boo 25,000,000,000
Good Boo 10,000,000,000
Evil Boo 15,000,000,000
Super Boo 60,000,000,000
Super Gotenks Boo 132,000,000,000
Super Piccolo Boo 62,000,000,000
Super Gohan Boo 135,000,000,000
Buff Boo 65,000,000,000
Kid Boo 30,000,000,000

Vegerot 3,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 150,000,000,000

[Hugo Boss]

Eh, there's nothing wrong with those fights?

With Roshi and Krillin, Goku was just testing them. This was confirmed by someone who worked on DBS as far as I remember.

With Piccolo, he managed to endure a massively amped shock wave from him and this is a stronger Piccolo than the one that almost killed SS2 Gohan with ease.

Against base Gohan, he was clearly holding back since with SS2 he was fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan (Before Gohan adapts and grows stronger) and his Ultimate form yields far more than a 100 times boost.

There's no issue with Caulifla.

P.S. There's also his fight with Slim Boo, which should kill any notion that him or Vegeta are not strong in base.

I agree that Goku and Gohan were testing their opponents, but even accounting for that, some of these fights still raise scaling questions.

• Gohan vs. Goku (Ep. 75): Gohan starts in base and fights on equal footing with Goku’s base. Even when they transform into Super Saiyans, Gohan gives Goku a solid fight. If base Goku had really gotten some huge boost beyond Boo arc levels, then base Gohan (who hadn’t regained his old strength yet) shouldn’t have been anywhere near him.

• Krillin vs. Gohan (Ep. 84): Krillin holding his own against Gohan, even before Gohan reawakened his instincts, is already surprising, considering the gap between them in Z. If Gohan was that out of practice, then his base level must have been way lower than expected. Otherwise, even with skill and experience, Krillin wouldn’t have stood a chance.

• Krillin vs. Goku (Ep. 84): Krillin is still tired from fighting Gohan, but he goes on to fight Goku. This implies that Krillin actually did well against Goku. That’s surprising because if base Goku was beyond Boo arc levels, Krillin should have been stomped. Instead, he was able to push Goku to some degree.

• Goku vs. Slim Boo (Ep. 85): Boo had been training and gotten stronger, but he still took down base Goku easily. If base Goku had the “God-like state” active all the time, maybe Boo shouldn’t have overwhelmed him like that. I will give you that.

• Gohan vs. Piccolo (Ep. 88): Piccolo’s performance against SS2 Gohan looked impressive, but Goku himself told Piccolo that Gohan was rusty and needed to regain his old strength. If anything, that just shows how much weaker Gohan was at that point rather than how much stronger Piccolo became.

• Goku vs. Roshi (Ep. 89): Goku is actually impressed by Roshi’s power and received help from Chiaotzu to defeat him. If base Goku was as strong as some people say, Roshi shouldn’t have made any impression on him at all.

• Goku & Tenshinhan vs. Gohan & Piccolo (Ep. 90): another case where, yeah, Goku was holding back and Tenshinhan was a non-factor, but the fact that they even exchanged blows meaningfully suggests their base levels weren’t that far apart. Piccolo is clearly stronger than his past self, but that still doesn’t mean base Goku is so far removed from him. And since Ultimate is supposed to be a huge boost beyond SS2, that should mean initial Ultimate Gohan wasn’t anywhere near his peak either.

• Goku vs. Caulifla (Ep. 113): Skill and experience played a major role, not just raw power. Goku, while still recovering, held his own against Caulifla’s SS2 in base due to his superior technique. But as soon as she adapted and improved mid-fight, he was forced to transform. This mirrors what happened with Piccolo vs. SS2 Gohan (Ep. 88), where Piccolo’s superior skill and tactics allowed him to dominate despite the power gap. It also lines up with Krillin doing well against base Gohan (Ep. 84) and even managing to outmaneuver base Goku at times.

The Tournament of Power arc, in general, played with the idea that strategy, skill, and adaptability could allow weaker characters to hold their own against stronger opponents, at least for a while, but the fights all make more sense if base Goku is still within a reasonable range, not some God-tier level. If anything, the writing just treats fights more flexibly depending on the scene.

[ZombieVito]

I agree that Goku and Gohan were testing their opponents, but even accounting for that, some of these fights still raise scaling questions.

• Gohan vs. Goku (Ep. 75): Gohan starts in base and fights on equal footing with Goku’s base. Even when they transform into Super Saiyans, Gohan gives Goku a solid fight. If base Goku had really gotten some huge boost beyond Boo arc levels, then base Gohan (who hadn’t regained his old strength yet) shouldn’t have been anywhere near him.

Goku was just fooling around. Gohan is later revealed to be exactly as strong as his Boo arc peak, sans Ultimate of course.

• Krillin vs. Gohan (Ep. 84): Krillin holding his own against Gohan, even before Gohan reawakened his instincts, is already surprising, considering the gap between them in Z. If Gohan was that out of practice, then his base level must have been way lower than expected. Otherwise, even with skill and experience, Krillin wouldn’t have stood a chance.

Krillin didn't stand a chance in a straight fight. Gohan blocked all of his attacks and then swatted him away with 2 punches. Krillin won that fight entirely on skill and tactics alone. There's also the fact Krillin got stronger so I don't see the issue with him approaching Gohan's base level from the Boo arc.

• Krillin vs. Goku (Ep. 84): Krillin is still tired from fighting Gohan, but he goes on to fight Goku. This implies that Krillin actually did well against Goku. That’s surprising because if base Goku was beyond Boo arc levels, Krillin should have been stomped. Instead, he was able to push Goku to some degree.

Same as with Gohan, Krillin managed to hold on with skill and tactics.

• Goku vs. Slim Boo (Ep. 85): Boo had been training and gotten stronger, but he still took down base Goku easily. If base Goku had the “God-like state” active all the time, maybe Boo shouldn’t have overwhelmed him like that. I will give you that.

Slim Boo only beat Goku after catching him off guard. They were very much evenly matched when they clashed.

• Gohan vs. Piccolo (Ep. 88): Piccolo’s performance against SS2 Gohan looked impressive, but Goku himself told Piccolo that Gohan was rusty and needed to regain his old strength. If anything, that just shows how much weaker Gohan was at that point rather than how much stronger Piccolo became.

Gohan's power wasn't rusty. He's exactly as strong as his post Z Sword training self. He just needed to unlock his Ultimate form again.

• Goku vs. Roshi (Ep. 89): Goku is actually impressed by Roshi’s power and received help from Chiaotzu to defeat him. If base Goku was as strong as some people say, Roshi shouldn’t have made any impression on him at all.

Well, of course he's going to be impressed. Last time he saw him, Roshi was like Nappa level. Now he's in the tens of millions.

• Goku & Tenshinhan vs. Gohan & Piccolo (Ep. 90): another case where, yeah, Goku was holding back and Tenshinhan was a non-factor, but the fact that they even exchanged blows meaningfully suggests their base levels weren’t that far apart. Piccolo is clearly stronger than his past self, but that still doesn’t mean base Goku is so far removed from him. And since Ultimate is supposed to be a huge boost beyond SS2, that should mean initial Ultimate Gohan wasn’t anywhere near his peak either.

Their bases being close is an impossibility. For that to be true, Gohan's Ultimate form would need to have the same or lower multiplier than SS2.

• Goku vs. Caulifla (Ep. 113): Skill and experience played a major role, not just raw power. Goku, while still recovering, held his own against Caulifla’s SS2 in base due to his superior technique. But as soon as she adapted and improved mid-fight, he was forced to transform. This mirrors what happened with Piccolo vs. SS2 Gohan (Ep. 88), where Piccolo’s superior skill and tactics allowed him to dominate despite the power gap. It also lines up with Krillin doing well against base Gohan (Ep. 84) and even managing to outmaneuver base Goku at times.

That's not what happens with Gohan vs Piccolo. Gohan is shocked at his power. Piccolo clearly surpassed SS2 Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

Re: Goku vs. Gohan (Ep. 75)
Gohan gave Goku a pretty good fight, too good, in fact. Their battle devastated the field, which wouldn’t happen if the power gap was enormous. Goku might have been going easy at first, but he wasn’t just standing around either. After the Zen Exhibition Match, Goku even told Piccolo that Gohan had fought well but was still out of shape, meaning Gohan had the strength but wasn’t making full use of it. That explains why Gohan could match Goku so well in their spar despite later needing training to regain his full fighting form.

Re: Krillin vs. Gohan (Ep. 84) & Krillin vs. Goku (Ep. 84)
If Krillin was merely approaching Gohan’s Boo arc base level, then how would skill and tactics alone let him hold his own against Goku, who is supposedly way stronger than that? Even when Goku transformed into Super Saiyan, Krillin wasn’t immediately obliterated. If base Goku were leagues beyond Boo arc levels, then a tired Krillin wouldn’t have looked remotely competitive in either of those fights. The scene makes a lot more sense if Goku’s base isn’t absurdly higher.

Re: Goku vs. Slim Boo (Ep. 85)
The fight wasn’t as “even” as you make it sound. Boo disrupted Goku’s defenses almost immediately and took him down before he could react. If Goku was on equal footing, he should have been able to respond properly. We also don’t know how the fight would have played out if Goku had been given time to transform, as he did against Krillin. The fight ended too early before we could see where the power balance truly stood.

Re: Gohan vs. Piccolo (Ep. 88)
Gohan having his Boo arc power doesn’t mean he was fighting at that level. Piccolo himself pointed out that Gohan’s mindset was holding him back, his strong desire to protect others was actually a hindrance. That’s why Piccolo initially dominated SS2 Gohan, not because he surpassed him in raw power. In a few hours, after adjusting his mentality, Gohan’s performance drastically improved, showing that Piccolo was really only competing with base Gohan, not SS2. That same issue also happened with Caulifla, she got exponentially stronger just by fixing her fighting approach. The way the Tournament of Power arc was written makes Super Saiyan 2 seem more like a minor increase when compared to the importance of skill and battle awareness.

Re: Goku vs. Roshi (Ep. 89)
If Roshi had reached a power level in the tens of millions and base Goku was having a close even battle with him, then doesn’t that just reinforce that Goku’s base is still close to his Boo arc level? Goku didn’t obliterate Roshi with a casual kamehameha, he actually had to put in effort. The gap between him and Goku wasn’t astronomical.

Re: Goku & Tenshinhan vs. Gohan & Piccolo (Ep. 90)
I don’t see why you think base Goku and base Gohan being close is an impossibility. Their fight looked way closer than Goku vs. Roshi, and the speed of their exchanges was so intense that Tenshinhan couldn’t even keep up. Ultimate Gohan starting off against SS2 Goku isn’t a decisive argument either, since later in the fight he was rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. It makes sense that Gohan wasn’t immediately going all-out against a form that he knew was Goku holding back on purpose. Even Goku noted that Gohan was still holding back during their Kamehameha clash.

Re: Goku vs. Caulifla (Ep. 113)
You’re misunderstanding my point. Goku’s superior skill allowed him to hold his own against Caulifla’s SS2 in base at first, but once she adapted and improved, he was forced to transform. That directly parallels what happened with Piccolo vs. SS2 Gohan. Gohan’s lack of sharpness made him look weaker until he adjusted. So no, I don’t think Piccolo outright surpassed SS2 Gohan in raw power, he was just taking advantage of Gohan’s unrefined state, just like how Caulifla’s lack of experience initially held her back despite her raw power.

The overall trend in the Tournament of Power arc is that skill, adaptability, cooperation and fighting instincts were emphasized just as much as raw power. That’s why we see fights where characters who should be at a massive disadvantage manage to put up a solid performance, because the writing prioritized flexibility in battle rather than strict power scaling. If base Goku were truly in a completely different tier, we wouldn’t be seeing characters like Krillin, Roshi, and even the lackluster Gohan keeping up with him at times.

[Koitsukai]

Re: Goku vs. Gohan (Ep. 75)
Gohan gave Goku a pretty good fight, too good, in fact. Their battle devastated the field, which wouldn’t happen if the power gap was enormous. Goku might have been going easy at first, but he wasn’t just standing around either. After the Zen Exhibition Match, Goku even told Piccolo that Gohan had fought well but was still out of shape, meaning Gohan had the strength but wasn’t making full use of it. That explains why Gohan could match Goku so well in their spar despite later needing training to regain his full fighting form.

Re: Krillin vs. Gohan (Ep. 84) & Krillin vs. Goku (Ep. 84)
If Krillin was merely approaching Gohan’s Boo arc base level, then how would skill and tactics alone let him hold his own against Goku, who is supposedly way stronger than that? Even when Goku transformed into Super Saiyan, Krillin wasn’t immediately obliterated. If base Goku were leagues beyond Boo arc levels, then a tired Krillin wouldn’t have looked remotely competitive in either of those fights. The scene makes a lot more sense if Goku’s base isn’t absurdly higher.

Re: Goku vs. Slim Boo (Ep. 85)
The fight wasn’t as “even” as you make it sound. Boo disrupted Goku’s defenses almost immediately and took him down before he could react. If Goku was on equal footing, he should have been able to respond properly. We also don’t know how the fight would have played out if Goku had been given time to transform, as he did against Krillin. The fight ended too early before we could see where the power balance truly stood.

Re: Gohan vs. Piccolo (Ep. 88)
Gohan having his Boo arc power doesn’t mean he was fighting at that level. Piccolo himself pointed out that Gohan’s mindset was holding him back, his strong desire to protect others was actually a hindrance. That’s why Piccolo initially dominated SS2 Gohan, not because he surpassed him in raw power. In a few hours, after adjusting his mentality, Gohan’s performance drastically improved, showing that Piccolo was really only competing with base Gohan, not SS2. That same issue also happened with Caulifla, she got exponentially stronger just by fixing her fighting approach. The way the Tournament of Power arc was written makes Super Saiyan 2 seem more like a minor increase when compared to the importance of skill and battle awareness.

Re: Goku vs. Roshi (Ep. 89)
If Roshi had reached a power level in the tens of millions and base Goku was having a close even battle with him, then doesn’t that just reinforce that Goku’s base is still close to his Boo arc level? Goku didn’t obliterate Roshi with a casual kamehameha, he actually had to put in effort. The gap between him and Goku wasn’t astronomical.

Re: Goku & Tenshinhan vs. Gohan & Piccolo (Ep. 90)
I don’t see why you think base Goku and base Gohan being close is an impossibility. Their fight looked way closer than Goku vs. Roshi, and the speed of their exchanges was so intense that Tenshinhan couldn’t even keep up. Ultimate Gohan starting off against SS2 Goku isn’t a decisive argument either, since later in the fight he was rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. It makes sense that Gohan wasn’t immediately going all-out against a form that he knew was Goku holding back on purpose. Even Goku noted that Gohan was still holding back during their Kamehameha clash.

Re: Goku vs. Caulifla (Ep. 113)
You’re misunderstanding my point. Goku’s superior skill allowed him to hold his own against Caulifla’s SS2 in base at first, but once she adapted and improved, he was forced to transform. That directly parallels what happened with Piccolo vs. SS2 Gohan. Gohan’s lack of sharpness made him look weaker until he adjusted. So no, I don’t think Piccolo outright surpassed SS2 Gohan in raw power, he was just taking advantage of Gohan’s unrefined state, just like how Caulifla’s lack of experience initially held her back despite her raw power.

The overall trend in the Tournament of Power arc is that skill, adaptability, cooperation and fighting instincts were emphasized just as much as raw power. That’s why we see fights where characters who should be at a massive disadvantage manage to put up a solid performance, because the writing prioritized flexibility in battle rather than strict power scaling. If base Goku were truly in a completely different tier, we wouldn’t be seeing characters like Krillin, Roshi, and even the lackluster Gohan keeping up with him at times.

Interesting, so how would you rank those characters if you have to give them numbers?

In the manga there's that panel where pre-ToP Goku deflects some bullets but is scraped by one of them and calls himself rusty... was that also in the anime?

[Hugo Boss]

Good question. If we go by strict battle power, the numbers wouldn’t tell the full story. So I’ll rank them across different attributes:

Spoiler:

Battle Power (Relative scaling, not exact numbers)
1. Ultimate Gohan – 100
2. SS2 Goku – 95
3. SS2 Caulifla – 90
4. Slim Boo – 90
5. Piccolo – 80
6. Base Goku – 75
7. Base Gohan – 70
8. Base Caulifla – 65
9. Master Roshi – 40
10. Krillin – 35
11. Tenshinhan – 30

Spoiler:

Skill & Fighting Instincts (Pure technique, experience, and ability to read opponents)
1. Goku – 100
2. Master Roshi – 95
3. Piccolo – 90
4. Krillin – 85
5. Tenshinhan – 80
6. Gohan – 70 (Held back by mindset issues)
7. Slim Boo – 60 (Instinctive but reckless)
8. Caulifla – 50 (Raw talent but very little refined technique)

Spoiler:

Adaptability (In-Fight Growth & Tactical Adjustments)
1. Goku – 100
2. Gohan – 95 (After training with Piccolo)
3. Caulifla – 95 (She improved drastically mid-fight against Goku)
4. Piccolo – 90
5. Master Roshi – 85
6. Krillin – 80
7. Slim Boo – 70
8. Tenshinhan – 60

Spoiler:

Strategic Intelligence (Battle Tactics & Team Awareness)
1. Master Roshi – 100
2. Piccolo – 95
3. Krillin – 90
4. Goku – 85 (Genius in combat, but reckless)
5. Gohan – 75 (Great when focused, but lacks consistency)
6. Tenshinhan – 70
7. Slim Boo – 50 (Strong but simple-minded)
8. Caulifla – 40 (Too reckless, but learns quickly)

I think this breakdown makes sense of why some of these characters could put up decent fights despite being much weaker in raw power. Skill and tactical thinking gave them ways to compensate, whereas Caulifla thrived on adaptability but lacked refined technique.

Re: The Bullet Scene
Yeah, that moment was in Episode 77. Goku got grazed by a bullet and even said he couldn’t complain about Krillin anymore. So, Pre-ToP Goku was also a little rusty before getting back into serious fighting. That was the anime’s version of the same idea in the manga.

[QuakingStar]

Well, everyone. Toriyama made it pretty clear he did not care if he broke some canon with Daima. Goku knew there was another transformation within he just wasn't sure if he could do it or how. Neva simply awakened it for him. Shin and Kibito did not refuse either. This directly contradicts the BoG Arc. I'm hoping in the new DBS Arc they address all of this.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Power levels Z updated + 90% of Movies

Z Movies

Spoiler:

Movie 3

Gohan: 10k
Piccolo: 18k
Turles Initial: 24k
Goku: 36k
KK Goku: 72k
Great Ape Gohan: 100k
KK10 Goku: 360k
Turles Post Fruit: 600k

Movie 4

Krillin: 24k
Gohan: 25k
Commander zeeun: 25k
Wings: 39.5k
Medamatcha: 42k
Angila: 45k
Piccolo: 80k
Goku: 90k
KK Goku: 180k
KK10 Goku: 900k
Old lord slug: 650k
Young lord slug: 2.6 mil
False SS Goku: 4.5 mil
Giant Lord slug: 5.2 mil
KK100 Goku: 9 mil
Spirit Bomb Goku: 10 mil

Movie 5

Krillin: 180k
Neiz: 300k
Dore: 330k
Salza: 360k
Gohan: 400k
Gohan Fatigued: 240k
1st Form Cooler unseen: 640k
2nd form cooler unseen: 1.28 mil
Piccolo: 2.16 mil
3rd form cooler unseen: 1.92 mil
Vegeta Unseen: 2.64 mil
Cooler Initial: 2.88 mil
Goku: 3.3 mil
50% Cooler Unseen: 48 mil
100% Cooler Unseen: 96 mil
5th Form Cooler: 144 mil
KK10 Goku: 33 mil
KK20 Goku: 66 mil
SS Goku: 165 mil


Movie 6

Krillin: 2.7 mil
Gohan: 3.3 mil
Cooler Robot Goons: 2.4 mil
Piccolo: 180 mil or 360 mil
Goku: 4.2 mil
Meta Cooler Initial: 216 mil
SS Goku: 210 mil
Meta Cooler 1st repair: 324 mil
Vegeta: 4.32 mil
SS Vegeta: 216 mil
Goku + Vegeta (Power of Gogeta): 426 mil
Meta Cooler 2nd Repair: 500 mil
Meta Cooler Core: 470 mil
SS Goku Fake ass Spirit Bomb: 525 mil

Movie 7

Krillin: 2.7 mil
Gohan: 3.3 mil
Trunks: 4.32 mil
Goku: 4.5 mil
Android 15 Initial: 7.6 mil
Android 14 Initial: 8 mil
Android 13 Initial: 8.4 mil
Vegeta: 4.5 mil
SS Vegeta: 225 mil
SS Trunks: 216 mil
SS Goku: 225 mil
Android 15: 190 mil
Android 14: 200 mil
Android 13: 210 mil
Super Android 13: 600 mil
Kamicolo: 360 mil
SS Goku Spirit Bomb: 675 mil

Movie 8

Paragus: 2000
Krillin: 3.3 mil
Gohan 20 mil
Trunks: 17.28 mil
Vegeta 18 mil
Goku: 27 mil
Broly: 30 mil
RSS Broly: 300 mil
SS Broly: 1.5 bil
SS Vegeta: 900 mil
SS Trunks: 864 mil
Piccolo: 900 mil
Super Vegeta: 1.2 bil
Super Trunks: 1.152 bil
SS Goku: 1.35 bil
SS Gohan: 1 bil
LSS Broly: 3 bil
SS Goku (Power of Friendship): 3.375 bil

Movie 9

Yamcha: 2.25 mil
Tien: 2.7 mil
Krillin: 3.3 mil
Trunks: 40.5 mil
Kogu: 1 bil
Super Kogu: 1.5 bil
SS Trunks: 2.025 bil
Bujin: 1.68 bil
Bido: 1.72 bil
Zangya: 1.76 bil
SS Vegeta: 2.16 bil
Piccolo: 1.8 bil
SS Gohan: 3 bil
Bojack: 3 bil
Super Bojack: 4.5 bil
SS2 Gohan: 6 bil

Movie 10

Videl: 7.7
Goten: 30 mil
Trunks: 31.5 mil
Krillin: 4.2 mil
Broly: 75 mil
SS Broly: 3.75 bil
SS Goten: 1.5 bil
SS Trunks: 1.575 bil
Gohan: 56 mil
SS2 Gohan: 5.25 bil
LSS Broly: 75 bil
SS Goku: 3.6 bil
SS2 Vegeta unseen: 6.3 bil

Movie 11

Bio Broly: 2.5 bil
Goten: 34.56 mil
Trunks: 36 mil
SS Goten: 1.728 bil
SS Trunks: 1.8 bil
Android 18: 330 mil
Krillin: 4.5 mil
Giant Bio Broly: 3.125 bil
Goku unseen: 75 mil
Vegeta unseen: 66 mil

Movie 12

Goku: 75 mil
Pikkon: 3.375 bil
SS Goku: 3.75 bil
SS2 Goku: 7.5 bil
Fat Janemba: 18.75 bil
SS3 Goku: 30 bil
Super Janemba: 150 bil
Vegeta: 75 mil
SS Vegeta: 3.75 bil
SS2 Vegeta: 7.5 bil
Veku: 150 mil
SS Gogeta: 375 bil

Movie 13

Goku: 78 mil
Vegeta: 78 mil
Gohan: 84 mil
SS Goku: 3.9 bil
SS Vegeta: 3.9 bil
SS2 Goku/Vegeta: 7.8 bil
SS3 Goku: 31.2 bil
Hirudegarn Top and Bottom: 30 bil
Hirudegarn First Form: 60 bil
SS3 Gotenks: 150 bil
Mystic Gohan: 168 bil
Dragon fist: 312 bil
Hirudegarn Final form: 240 bil

Multipliers

Spoiler:

Multipliers
Great ape: 10×Base - Mobility
SS: 50× Base
Grade 2: 66.66× Base 1.33×SS
Grade 3: 83.33-100×Base 1.66-2×SS - Speed
SS2: 100×Base 2×SS
SS3: 400×Base 4×SS2
LSS: 100×Base 2×SS
LSS DBS:
Ikari: 10× Base plus mobility
Fusion dance: weakest fusse ×7.5-100
Portara Fusion: Strongest Fusse ×1,000-4,000
Mystic: x2,000 Base 20× SS2

Saiyan saga

Spoiler:

Raditz Arc

Piccolo (w/weights): 329
Goku (w/weights): 334
Piccolo (w/o weights): 408
Goku (w/o weights): 416
Goku (Kamehameha): 924
Gohan (Enraged): 1307
Piccolo (1st SBC): 1330
Piccolo (2nd SBC): 1480
Raditz: 1500

Vegeta Arc

Chiaotzu: 610
Gohan (Supressed):981
Krillin (Supressed):1083
Piccolo (Supressed):1220
Saibamen: 1200
Gohan (Full power): 1250
Yamcha: 1480
Krillin (Full Power): 1770
Tien: 1830
Tien (weakened): 1220
Tien (Kikoho): 3050
Gohan (Enraged): 2800
Piccolo (Full Power): 3500
Nappa: 4000
Goku (Supressed): 5000
Nappa (Adapting): 6000
Nappa (Greatest Technique): 7500
Goku (Full Power): 8000
Goku (Kaioken): 16k
Vegeta: 18k
Goku (Kaioken x3): 24k
Vegeta (Galick Gun): 24k
Goku (Kaioken x4): 32k
Vegeta (weakened): 10k
Great ape Vegeta: 100k
Goku weakened: 3000
Spirit Bomb Goku: 120k
Krillin weakened: 1050
Gohan (Enraged vs Vegeta): 4500+
Spirit bomb Krillin: 60k
Gohan weakened: 900
Gohan (Great ape): 9000
Vegeta Heavily Injuried: 900
Goku Heavily Injured: 80

Frieza saga

Spoiler:

Namek Arc
Gohan (arrival on namek supressed): 1500
Krillin (arrival on namek suppressed):1500
Frieza soldiers: 1100
Gohan Full power: 2000
Krillin Full Power: 2100
Dodoria: 22k
Zarbon: 23k
Frieza (Heavily Supressed): 85k
Vegeta (Arrival on Namek): 24k
Cui: 18k
Monster Zarbon: 30k
Appule: idk around 1500-1800
Vegeta (1st Zenkai): 30k

Ginyu Arc
Krillin (Potential unlocked): 13k
Gohan (Potential unlocked): 14k
Guldo:10k
Gohan Enraged: 20k
Reccome: 40k
Jeice: 42k
Burter: 43k
Goku (Arrival on Namek): 90k
Ginyu: 120k
Goku (Kaioken): 180k
Vegeta (vs Jeice): 60k
Krillin (vs Ginyu Goku): 24k
Gohan (vs Ginyu Goku): 25k
Goku Ginyu: 15k
Nail: 42k


Frieza Arc
1st Form Frieza (Annoyed): 500k
Vegeta (vs 1st form Frieza): 250k
Gohan (vs 1st form Frieza): 200k
Krillin (vs 1st form Frieza): 75k
2nd form Frieza Inital: 1.06 mil
Gohan (Enraged vs 2nd form Frieza): 1 mil
2nd Form Frieza (Powered up): 1.13 mil
Krillin (Potential Rising): 150k
Gohan (Zenkai/Potential rising): 500k
Piccolo (Post king kai): 240k
Piccolo (Fused with nail weighted): 1.05 mil
2nd Form Frieza (Full power): 1.2 mil
Piccolo (Fused with nail unweighted): 1.2 mil
3rd Form Frieza: 1.59 mil
Gohan (Enraged vs 3rd form Frieza): 1.5 mil
Final form Frieza (Inital): 2.4 mil
Chiaotzu: 200k
Yamcha: 500k
Tien: 600k
Krillin Potential Unleashed: 750k
Gohan Potential Unleashed: 1 mil
Vegeta (Super Zenkai): 2.5 mil
Final Form Frieza (vs Vegeta): 3 mil
Goku (Zenkai): 3 mil
Final Form Frieza (No hands vs Goku): 3.36 mil
Goku (Kaioken x10): 30 mil
Final Form Frieza 33% power: 40 mil
Goku (Kaioken x20): 60 mil
Final Form Frieza 50% power: 60 mil
Goku (Spirit bomb): 75 mil
Super Saiyan Goku Inital: 75 mil
Final Form Frieza 70% power: 84 mil
Super Saiyan Goku (Powered up): 100 mil
Final Form Frieza 100% power: 120 mil
Super Saiyan Goku (Full Power): 150 mil
Gohan (Enraged vs Final Form Frieza): 2 mil
Final Form Frieza (Weakened): 90 mil and decreasing
Super saiyan goku (a lil tired): 120 mil
Final Form Frieze 1/2'd: 1.2 mil
Super Saiyan Goku ( lending Frieza some ki): 100 mil
Final Form Frieza (with Goku's ki): 40 mil

Cell saga

Spoiler:

Trunks Arc

Chiaotzu: 250k
Yamcha 600k
Tien: 750k
Krillin: 900k
Gohan: 1.125 mil
Vegeta: 2.75 mil
Piccolo: 2.7 mil
Mecha Frieza Initial: 2.6 mil
King cold Initial: 2.7 mil
Trunks: 3.12 mil
Mecha Frieza: 130 mil
King Cold: 100 mil
SS Trunks 156 mil
SS Goku: 165 mil
Future 17/18 50%: 132 mil/138 mil
Future 17/18: 264 mil/276 mil
SS Future Gohan: 150 mil

Android Arc

Yamcha: 1.8 mil
Tien: 2.25 mil
Krillin: 2.7 mil
Gohan: 3.375 mil
Piccolo Heavily Supressed: 3.6 mil
Trunks: 4.05 mil
Goku: 4.2 mil
Vegeta: 4.32 mil
Android 19: 132 mil
Android 20: 138 mil
SS Sick Goku: 175 mil
Android 19 Kamehameha Absorbed: 167 mil
SS Goku Sicker: 139 mil
Goku Sicker: 2.78 mil
Android 19 Goku absorbed: 168 mil
SS Vegeta 216 mil
SS Trunks 202.5 mil
Android 20 Yamcha absorbed: 139.5 mil
Android 20 Vegeta blast absorbed: 163.5 mil
Android 20 Piccolo absorbed: 165 mil
Piccolo Full power: 180 mil
Android 17 Suppressed: 276 mil
Android 18 Suppressed: 264 mil
Android 16 shown power: 240 mil

Imperfect Cell Arc

Goku Post Virus: 4.5 mil
Vegeta Post androids: 4.5 mil
Trunks Post androids: 4.32 mil
imperfect cell ginger town: 260 mil
Kamiccolo weighted: 284 mil
Imperfect Cell Piccolo absorbed: 264 mil
Kamiccolo drained: 280 mil
Kamiccolo Full power: 360 mil
Android 17: 350 mil
Android 18: 300 mil
Kamiccolo Tired: 320 mil
Kamiccolo Light Grenade: 450 mil
Imperfect cell Humans absorbed: 500 mil
Android 16 True power: 480 mil
Android 16 Hells flash: 540 mil
Semi perfect cell Initial: 700 mil
Tien: 2.25 mil
Tien Haxxed tri beam: 675 mil

Perfect Cell Arc

Krillin: 2.7 mil
Krillin Destructo disk: 810 mil
Trunks Post Rosat: 17.28 mil
Vegeta Post Rosat: 18 mil
Super Saiyan Trunks: 864 mil
Super Vegeta: 1.2 bil
Semi Perfect Cell (Full Power): 900 mil
Super Trunks: 1.152 bil
Perfect Cell Initial: 1.08 bil
Perfect Cell (warming up): 1.5 bil
Super Vegeta Final Flash: 1.6875 bil
Ultra Trunks: 1.44 bil
Ultra Trunks (Powered up): 1.728 bil
Perfect Cell (Supressed Buff): 2 bil
50% Super Saiyan Goku: 1.35 bil


Cell Games Arc
Yamcha: 2.7 mil
Tien: 3 mil
Krillin: 3.3 mil
Vegeta (Post 2nd Rosat): 43.2 mil
Trunks (Post 2nd Rosat): 40.5 mil
Piccolo (Post Rosat Weighted): 1.42 bil
Mr. Satan: 6.66
Mr. Satan (True Power): 6.66 bil
Super Saiyan Goku: 2.7 bil
Perfect Cell: 3 bil
SS Goku IT Kamehameha: 3.6 bil
Perfect cell tired: 2.76 bil
Super Saiyan Goku Tired 900 mil
Super Saiyan Gohan: 3 bil
Cell Jrs: 2.25 bil
Jrs Kamehameha: 2.7 bil
Jrs tri beam: 2.7 bil
Jrs Special beam cannon: 3 bil
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 2.16 bil
Super Saiyan Trunks: 2.025 bil
Piccolo (Full Power Unweighted): 1.8 bil
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 6 bil
Perfect Cell (Full Power): 4 bil
Perfect Destructo disk: 4.2 bil
Perfect special Beam cannon: 4.5 bil
Perfect Cell Perfect Kamehameha: 5.28 bil
Perfect Cell (Buff af): 5 bil
Semi Perfect Cell self destruction: 4.5 bil
Super Perfect Cell: 6 bil
SS2 Gohan Heavily Injured: 4.2 bil
Super Perfect cell Kamehameha: 8 bil
SS2 Gohan Kamehameha: 5.6 bil
Father son Kamehameha: 7 bil
SS2 Gohan (Enraged/Full power Father son Kamehameha): 9 bil


Buu saga

Spoiler:

Great Saiyaman Arc

Gohan (7 years Later): 56 mil
Goten: 30 mil
Super Saiyan Goten: 1.5 bil
Super Saiyan Gohan: 2.8 bil
Videl: 7
Trunks: 31.5 mil
Super Saiyan Trunks: 1.575 bil
Vegeta (7 years Later): 63 mil
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 3.15 bil
Goku (7 years later): 72 mil
SS Goku (7 Years later): 3.6 bil
Weighted Piccolo (7 years later): 1.84 bil
Krillin (7 years later): 4.2 mil
Android 18 (7 years later): 315 mil
Yamcha: 3.2 mil

25th Tenkaichi Budōkai

Yamcha: 3.6 mil
Krillin: 4.5 mil
Goten: 34.56 mil
Trunks: 36 mil
Gohan: 60 mil
Videl: 7.77
Vegeta: 66 mil
Piccolo (Heavily Supressed): 48.6 mil
Android 18: 330 mil
Goku: 75 mil
Shin: 2.7 bil
Kibito: 54 mil
Spopovich: 8
Yamu: 9


Babidi/Majin buu Arc

Babidi: 4.5
Babidi with Magic: 1.8 bil
Pui Pui: 20k
Pui Pui Planet Zoom: 200k
Yakon: 40 mil
Yakon Planet Darkness: 100 mil
Yakon Energy Limit: 800 mil
Super Saiyan Goku: 3.75 bil
Super Saiyan 2 Burst Goku: 6.75 bil
Dabura: 5.2 bil
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 5.4 bil
Super Saiyan Vegeta Unseen: 3.3 bil
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta Unseen: 6.6 bil
Super Saiyan Majin Vegeta: 3.75 bil
Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta: 7.5 bil
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 7.5 bil
Majin Buu Initial: 5 bil
Majin Buu (Powered up vs Gohan and Dabura): 8.4 bil
Majin Buu (Powered Up again vs Vegeta): 10.5 bil
Piccolo weighted: 1.9 bil
Super Saiyan Trunks: 1.8 bil
Super Saiyan Goten: 1.728 bil
Majin Vegeta (Final Atonement): 12 bil
Goku: 75 mil
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 30 bil
Majin Buu: 15 bil

Fusion Arc

Goten: 34.56 mil
Trunks: 36 mil
Gotenks: 270 mil
Majin Buu (vs Gotenks): 600 mil
Super Saiyan Gotenks: 13.5 bil
Piccolo (Weighted): 1.9 bil
Piccolo unseen FP: 2.34 bil
Mr Satan: 6.66
Dudes with gun: > 6.66
Majin Buu: 15 bil
Good Buu: 6.6 bil
Evil Buu: 8.4 bil
Super Buu: 120 bil
Goten (Post Rosat): 43.2 mil
Trunks (Post Rosat): 45 mil
Gotenks: 375 mil
Super Saiyan Gotenks: 18.75 bil
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 150 bil
Gohan (Post Z Sword): 84 mil
Mystic Gohan: 168 bil
Tien: 4 mil
Buccilo:132 bil
Buutenks: 270 bil
Buuhan: 300 bil
Vegito: 300 bil
Super Vegito: 15 tril
Buff Buu: 150 bil
Kid Buu: 27 bil

Kid Buu Arc

Kid Buu 27 bil
Super Saiyan Goku: 3.75 bil
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 7.5 bil
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 30 bil
Vegeta: 75 mil
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 3.75 bil
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 7.5 bil
Good Buu Power Regained: 15 bil
Mr Satan: 6.66
Krillin: 4.5 mil
Yamcha: 3.6 mil
Spirit Bomb Goku Initial: 375 bil
Kid Buu (True Power): 540 bil
Super Saiyan Goku Full Power Spirit Bomb: 750 bil

The End

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I was trying to make a list that reconciles both SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku (FT Saga) and SSJ3 Goku (Post Boo Saga) > Ultimate Gohan, but it doesn’t quite add up. Besides SSJ2 Gohan > SSJ2 Gotenks being extremely questionable, Goku does have quite a gap to close to be in the position of strongest that Daima and Super put him in: He’s no match for Super Boo who’s no match for Gohan.

SSJ Goku (Boo): 50
SSJ2 Kid Gohan: 90
SSJ2 Goku (Boo): 100
SSJ3 Goku (Boo): 400

SSJ3 Goku in the Boo Saga is at most a 720 (90x2x4). So SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Boo would be 500, and Gohan a 600?

[Hugo Boss]

The issue is that Super and later Daima seem to operate under a weird revisionist history where Goku and Vegeta were always the strongest in the fight against Majin Boo, despite multiple moments contradicting that.

If they had explicitly stated that Goku and Vegeta surpassed Gohan and Gotenks after Boo’s defeat, it’d be a stretch but still somewhat plausible. But instead, it feels like the whole narrative is shifting to make it seem like they were always at the top, which just doesn’t hold up unless you start rewriting key parts of Boo arc.

I think what happened is that Toriyama likely didn’t remember the original power scaling dynamics and just went along with the idea that Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, leading to the inconsistencies we see in Super and Daima.

[QuakingStar]

Just saw the DBS Volume 24 cover, Broly's Controlled SS is his LSS but controlled. There goes the "It's only his normal SS form controlled" peoples arguments crushed yet again.

[ZombieVito]

Just saw the DBS Volume 24 cover, Broly's Controlled SS is his LSS but controlled. There goes the "It's only his normal SS form controlled" peoples arguments crushed yet again.

Wasn't the Green hair not present in the manga?

[QuakingStar]

Just saw the DBS Volume 24 cover, Broly's Controlled SS is his LSS but controlled. There goes the "It's only his normal SS form controlled" peoples arguments crushed yet again.

Wasn't the Green hair not present in the manga?

Originally yes, for Broly. But it seems they have decided to change that since this is the Official Volume 24 cover.

[ZombieVito]

Originally yes, for Broly. But it seems they have decided to change that since this is the Official Volume 24 cover.

Good. It never made sense for him to not have it there as well.