If Daima becomes non-canon to Super, then what was the point?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

You can’t just say it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t affect the story. If nothing changes in the last episode, then DB Daima and DB Super definitely aren’t part of the same story, universe, or canon—just like DBGT and Super aren’t.

And I’m glad about it.

Here's the timeline:

Daima
3 year gap
Battle of Gods/Super

If Daima doesn't fit in now, that doesn't mean we can't get a follow up story set in those three years that link them together. Super and GT clearly don't line up with one another, but we could always get a story that links them together. With that said, I still think there's a possibility of Daima's last episode leading into Super through the following:

1- Goku says that he can't access Ssj4 without Neva's magic.
2- Vegeta says that he won't use Ssj3 again because he couldn't fight for as long as he wanted.
3- Shin and Kibito eat the fusion bugs and are one being again.

[super michael]

In DBS I don't get why they had to retcon Future Trunks to always having blue hair. Basically in DBS Future Trunks never had purple/lavender hair, it was always blue.

At one point people thought the Future Trunks in Goku Black Saga was from a alternate time line than Future Trunks in DBZ.

[SupremeKai25]

Can't wait to reread all these threads after the finale drops.

All of this will either age like fine wine or milk, no in-between.

All this talk of "sense", "logic", "continuity" and whatnot has seriously tainted these last few episodes. This fandom STILL doesn't understand how Toriyama worked, huh? The guy literally forgot an entire main character once. Toriyama forgot that Dragon Ball Super was named Dragon Ball Super and that's why he called that movie Dragon Ball Super Super Hero.

Just because SSJ4 doesn't "fit" with BoG or whatever isn't proof that Daima wasn't supposed to connect to Super.

Either way, this debate will end soon enough. It makes no sense to talk about "canon" with Daima and Super. They were literally written by Toriyama himself.

If Super and Daima are non-canon, neither are OG DB and DBZ, LMAO! Literally written by Toriyama.

[GokuHater]

It makes no sense to talk about "canon" with Daima and Super.

I would take that even further - there's no point in talking about cannon in DB in general

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If Super and Daima are non-canon, neither are OG DB and DBZ, LMAO! Literally written by Toriyama.

This was said by one of Toriyama's editors a week or so ago:

About 10 years ago, when the idea of doing something new with Dragon Ball was proposed, Toriyama responded with little enthusiasm, saying he didn't find it fun anymore. The motivation that had driven him in the past was no longer there. During the Buu saga, that creative spark was still evident.

Modern DB and Classic DB are not one and the same.

[SupremeKai25]

If Super and Daima are non-canon, neither are OG DB and DBZ, LMAO! Literally written by Toriyama.

This was said by one of Toriyama's editors a week or so ago:

About 10 years ago, when the idea of doing something new with Dragon Ball was proposed, Toriyama responded with little enthusiasm, saying he didn't find it fun anymore. The motivation that had driven him in the past was no longer there. During the Buu saga, that creative spark was still evident.

Modern DB and Classic DB are not one and the same.

Doesn't change the fact that he wrote them so they're Canon.

OG DB and DBZ = written by Toriyama = canon

Super and Daima = written by Toriyama = canon

[Jord]

In DBS I don't get why they had to retcon Future Trunks to always having blue hair. Basically in DBS Future Trunks never had purple/lavender hair, it was always blue.

At one point people thought the Future Trunks in Goku Black Saga was from a alternate time line than Future Trunks in DBZ.

Probably due to merchandising. Now they can sell the "new" Trunks figure, with a different hair color, compared to Z Trunks.
Same goes for Bulma, SSB Goku, Vegeta Vegetto and Gogeta.
Hell, they gave Kaioshin a recolor and a ridiculous Super Saiyan wig and you get Zamasu.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In DBS I don't get why they had to retcon Future Trunks to always having blue hair. Basically in DBS Future Trunks never had purple/lavender hair, it was always blue.

At one point people thought the Future Trunks in Goku Black Saga was from a alternate time line than Future Trunks in DBZ.

It was always meant to be blue just like Bulma. Toei just messed up big time.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

OG DB and DBZ = written by Toriyama = canon

Super and Daima = written by Toriyama = canon

Canon ? Can you define Dragon Ball's canon ?

[BernardoCairo]

Can you define Dragon Ball's canon ?

The original Dragon Ball manga. It's the closest we have to an actual "canon". The Super continuities are all valid "casual continuations" of that original work, which is the main story.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Can you define Dragon Ball's canon ?

The original Dragon Ball manga. It's the closest we have to an actual "canon". The Super continuities are all valid "casual continuations" of that original work, which is the main story.

This is what I was getting at. Everything outside the original manga (GT, Movies, Super, etc...) are of the same level of importance. It's the original manga, then everything else below it.

[SupremeKai25]

OG DB and DBZ = written by Toriyama = canon

Super and Daima = written by Toriyama = canon

Canon ? Can you define Dragon Ball's canon ?

Anything written by Toriyama? That's usually what's canon. What was written by the original creator.

I know this fandom has a tendency to over-complicate everything, but that simple explanation's worked perfectly fine for me.

And before you bring it up: yes, Dragon Ball Online and any other obscure work from 20 years ago or whatever written by Toriyama would also count as canon, if you can prove they were written by Toriyama.

Can you define Dragon Ball's canon ?

The original Dragon Ball manga. It's the closest we have to an actual "canon". The Super continuities are all valid "casual continuations" of that original work, which is the main story.

This is what I was getting at. Everything outside the original manga (GT, Movies, Super, etc...) are of the same level of importance. It's the original manga, then everything else below it.

The Dragon Ball fandom is the only fandom in existence that can look at a series written by the original creator and a series not written by the original creator and say they're on the same level.

I will never, ever understand why this fandom goes through such lengths to dance around the simple fact: Toriyama, author of your favorite childhood show from the 1990s, also wrote Dragon Ball Super. Such a simple fact, is it not?

[VegettoEX]

I will never, ever understand why this fandom goes through such lengths to dance around the simple fact: Toriyama, author of your favorite childhood show from the 1990s, also wrote Dragon Ball Super. Such a simple fact, is it not?

I'm not sure why YOU are "dancing" around the fact that it's a very clear production difference:

Toriyama single-handedly (obviously considering his assistant, wife, and editorial oversight) wrote, drew, and hand delivered his Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball manuscripts, in a single medium (manga).

Toriyama provided guidance, oversight, notes, arc outlines, and revisions for the various Dragon Ball Super story arcs across two different mediums (anime + manga), which were then taken by different production groups (Toei + Toyotaro) to produce different angles on the stories, which sometimes told things the same way and sometimes different ways, sometimes with different folks offering back different suggestions or revisions (sometimes Toriyama, sometimes not).

None of this is a secret or difficult to understand -- it's all widely documented, even among official publications.

As such, it's very easy to see the perspective of someone thinking "directly from the pen of Toriyama" (re: original manga) taking some sort of higher canonical "value" or "level" compared to things that came decades later in a sequel series with more corporate involvement.

I'm very frustrated by what I read from your posts, which have shifted from a strange obsession with Zamasu almost as if he were a "real life" deity you worshiped, now to a complete dismissal and purposeful condemnation of... basic facts and context over Dragon Ball Super? It's very bizarre. Everything is confrontational, everything is a big to-do, everything is deified to some other plane of existence... again, just very bizarre and frustrating and transparently purposeful.

[super michael]

Can't wait to reread all these threads after the finale drops.

All of this will either age like fine wine or milk, no in-between.

All this talk of "sense", "logic", "continuity" and whatnot has seriously tainted these last few episodes. This fandom STILL doesn't understand how Toriyama worked, huh? The guy literally forgot an entire main character once. Toriyama forgot that Dragon Ball Super was named Dragon Ball Super and that's why he called that movie Dragon Ball Super Super Hero.

Just because SSJ4 doesn't "fit" with BoG or whatever isn't proof that Daima wasn't supposed to connect to Super.

Either way, this debate will end soon enough. It makes no sense to talk about "canon" with Daima and Super. They were literally written by Toriyama himself.

If Super and Daima are non-canon, neither are OG DB and DBZ, LMAO! Literally written by Toriyama.

Which character did Toriyama forget? I am aware that Toriyama thought SSJ2 was SSJ3.
If it is about Lunch, in the Saiyan Saga Bulma ask about Lunch, which Master Roshi says "she was chasing Tenshinhan five years ago, haven't seen her since.".


Let see what happens in the final episode. If SSJ4 can be accessed at will, then that contradicts DBS.
However Daima doesn't contradict DBZ, since they don't transform in EOZ.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I could be wrong, but it seems like Daima

Spoiler:

doesn't line up at all with Battle of Gods.

[BernardoCairo]

Spoiler:

doesn't line up at all with Battle of Gods.

Spoiler:

It doesn't. I like that.

[Vegetto95]

What was the point of Daima if it's "nOn-CaNoN"?

Well, what was the point of the original anime's filler? Or GT? Or the original 17 movies? Or the THREE different versions of God and God/Battle of Gods (they CAN'T ALL be "cAnOn")? Or the four different versions of Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans? Or Episode of Bardock? Or Dragon Ball SD? Or the Traffic and Fire Safefty PSAs? Or Xenoverse? Or Heroes? Or Fusions? Or FighterZ? Or Online? Or Shin Budōkai? Or Neko Majin? Or My Circumstances of Being Reincarrnated as Yamcha? Or... well, I think you get the point.

Wow... I guess that means that roughly 98.6% of the overall Dragon Ball franchise must be completely and utterly pointless then, huh?

I will never, EVER understand this mindset. One: no one, AND I REPEAT: NOOOO OOOOONE at Tōei or Shūeisha or Bandai Namco or whatever has ever given one single flying fuck about "cAnOn". EVER. Oh sure, they threw it out there as a buzzword once or twice in regards to the Super manga and Broli movie, but that was OBVIOUSLY a ploy to get the fanbase salivating, because that's the ONLY group that cares (WAAAAAAY too goddamn much, I might add) about "cAnOn'. It just doesn't factor into their Dragon Ball productions and NEVER, EVER HAS. That much has been made COMPLETELY obvious for just barely shy of 40 entire years now, and that has NOT changed AT ALL in the past 10 years. The fact that such a ridiculously GIGANTIC swath of the fanbase still just CANNOT see that at all absolutely BOGGLES my mind.

Two... so what? Seriously... SO. FUCKING. WHAT? WHY does Daima's "canonicity" matter? I got a better question for ya... why does "canonicity" matter? At ALL? If Dragon Ball Minus "replaced" the original 1990 Bardock TV special as the "canon" version of Bardock (which again, is a claim made ONLY by the fanbase), does that mean that Minus is therefore automatically better? PFFFFT. Yeah... I think we ALL know the answer to that. (A dichotomy made even more hilariously/unfortunately ironic by the fact that Toriyama stated in the past how much he loved the Bardock special... only to completely override it with his caring, nurturing Daddy Bardock who bears FAR more resemblance to Jor-El than his 90s namesake.)

Sorry, but canon does NOT matter. In THE SLIGHTEST. QUALITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL WORK does. Many DB products made by Toriyama are GREAT... and many aren't. Ditto MANY other manga/anime/games in the franchise not made by him (including those with which he had a little input)... some are good, some are not. And that's all that SHOULD matter at the end of the day.

Daima had its moments here and there, but overall it didn't really do it for me. And that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether or not it lines up with (*cough*the at least three different continuities of*cough*) Super, and EVERYTHIIIIIIIIING to do with its individual quality as a standalone work. In other words, I judge Dragon Ball Daima by one thing and one thing only: the 20 episodes of Dragon Ball Daima. THAT'S IT.

[JulieYBM]

They'll just make up an excuse to explain why Super Saiyan 4 wasn't used against Beers, or better yet, just retell the initial meeting with Beers with Super Saiyan 4. Voila!

[BernardoCairo]

Maybe it's just its own story. I wouldn't mind that at all.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Maybe it's just its own story.

The simplest answers are usually the correct ones. Super is a convoluted mess, so Toriyama may have just wanted a fresh start after Buu.