Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Every now and then? We're talking 3 main anime series post-Z potentially not lining up anymore.

GT was a series that ended back in 1997 and was not well received. Why would a sequel made nearly 20 years later have to be forced to line up with it ? Super has been front and center since 2013, so what's the harm if they ignored it for 20 episodes ? You're talking as if we're getting a separate series every year.

[Basaku]

Every now and then? We're talking 3 main anime series post-Z potentially not lining up anymore.

GT was a series that ended back in 1997 and was not well received. Why would a sequel made nearly 20 years later have to be forced to line up with it ? Super has been front and center since 2013, so what's the harm if they ignored it for 20 episodes ? You're talking as if we're getting a separate series every year.

The issue is that Daima is NOT treated and marketed as a "just a small separate 20eps thing". Toriyama's name and statements about official Buu continuation are being repeated all over the press releases and interviews. This is not Heroes anime that went on for 50+ eps yet was treated as a side product by all companies involved. Daima is treated as a main thing. Without specifying whether Super is still also a main thing and connected with Daima or not. And Daima ended on a very "season 2/followup movie" type of a finale cliffhanger, we may easily get one of them in the next year or two. So we're gonna end up with... 1 franchise having 2 main continuities next to each other releasing new stories that don't connect and never confirming one way or another if they will?

An absolute disaster mess of storytelling and for what? Because they couldn't have Kibitoshin refuse in 1 gag scene and a quick explanation for SSJ4 not appearing in Super? It's literally all it would take

[Zinnia]

GT was a series that ended back in 1997 and was not well received.

This is a rumor that needs to end already. People were overall having DB fatigue and it wasn't GT's fault. There wasn't smartphone gaming to keep the "hype" alive like now, so series were still allowed to end and the creators didn't have to worry about what will all the gacha companies do now with no new content.

GT was well received enough to the point that even 30 years later new series are pandering to it's fans. I'll take what the officials do over hearsays from this fanbase. Even the most popular, millions-making game franchises like Dokkan are having GT celebrations now. If it wasn't well received, they wouldn't be doing this.

[Sani007]

An absolute disaster mess of storytelling and for what? Because they couldn't have Kibitoshin refuse in 1 gag scene and a quick explanation for SSJ4 not appearing in Super? It's literally all it would take

That's not quite the case.

Daima: The Namekian Dragon Balls are copies of the Demon Realm versions.
Super: The Namekian Dragon Balls are copies of Zalama's orbs.
Daima: Kaioshins originate from the Demon Realm.
Super: Kaioshin can practically be anyone, like a talented Kaio.
Daima: The supreme god is Rymus.
Super: The supreme god is Zeno.
Daima: The Namekians move back to the Demon Realm.
Super: The Namekians continue to live on New Planet Namek, etc.

The two concepts are completely different. Of course, they could be forcefully tied together (and Toyotarou will try if he's allowed to), but it's clear that these are two entirely separate branches.

At this point, Daima is the only one that reaches the original manga's high standard for me—though that doesn't change the fact that I really enjoyed Super (be it the anime, manga, or movies).

[NeoZ Duwang]

An absolute disaster mess of storytelling and for what? Because they couldn't have Kibitoshin refuse in 1 gag scene and a quick explanation for SSJ4 not appearing in Super? It's literally all it would take

The little gremlin in me finds it way funnier that they don't explain anything and then just leave the entire hardcore fanbase confused about Dragon Ball's oficcial canon timeline™. I don't think it's that confusing for casual audiences, everyone knows comic book super-heroes and how many different versions and stories they have, as long as Toei keep their branding consistent, I can't see why not have a "Super" brand and a "Daima" brand coexisting.

It's also ironic to me how Super Saiyan 4 is one of the biggest obstacles to connect Daima with Super, when Super "uncanonized" GT or whatever.

To be fair, I get why some people would prefer for a connection to be there. Maybe they find the new lore interesting and want it to be part of the other show without the characters and the audience having to be reintroduced to it as if it was their first time seeing this stuff; maybe they like the new concepts introduced in it and want them to be available for all new stories, regardless of their branding. Personally, I'm fine if that lore is kept whithin Daima or if Goku never turns SSJ4 in "Super" branded content, but I can understand why someone would disagree.

But, as I said a few pages ago, I see no benefit in connecting Daima with Super, or even the basic idea of having just one Dragon Ball canon. A canon is only necessary as long as the stories included add something to the overall continuity and impact newer stories... I can see that if you really like Daima's lore, though most of it is so tangential to the actual plot and delievered through the least subtle exposition they could possibily write that I see no reason why any of those ideas can't exist independently from Daima's storyline. Sure, Daima is where we learn Shin's name is Nahare, but I don't think we need Daima to assume that this is probably also his name in Super. Daima itself mentions elements from Super, and that makes sense, both had Toriyama's involvement, so they have shared elements, even if they're not part of the same storyline.

I'm genuinely happy that they mostly ignored Super here, because it sets the precedent that not all new Dragon Ball content needs to follow some arbitrary canon and limits its own storytelling for the sake of it, and not every new installments needs to be THE oficcial Dragon Ball sequel. I find this specially important now that Toriyama is not with us, since anything that doesn't come from him is going to be inherently seem as less "canon" by default.

The only thing that is definitive is the original manga, because that's where every other story comes from. The rest is optional. They want a new Dragon Ball story where Goku becomes a kid and has adventures that have nothing to do with Gods of Destruction or Angels? They can do it! They can even give Goku a new form and not care if it contradicts that other series, because this is a story that can exist on its own

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Daima ended on a very "season 2/followup movie" type of a finale cliffhanger, we may easily get one of them in the next year or two.

Daima did not end on a cliffhanger; what are you talking about ? Everything was wrapped up by the end. Gomha was imprisoned, the demon realm has a better ruler in Kuu, and the heroes went back home after returning everyone to adults.

This is a rumor that needs to end already. People were overall having DB fatigue and it wasn't GT's fault.

It wasn't GT's fault entirely, but GT didn't make things better either.

I'm genuinely happy that they mostly ignored Super here, because it sets the precedent that not all new Dragon Ball content needs to follow some arbitrary canon and limits its own storytelling for the sake of it. I find this specially important now that Toriyama is not with us.

I completely agree with this statement. Between the tragic passing of Toriyama and his decision to separate Daima from Super, the doors are now open for Dragon Ball to be experimented with in ways not possible before. Super had its (too long) time to shine, Daima was really fun while it lasted, but it's time to take the franchise in a new direction.

The only thing that is definitive is the original manga, because that's where every other story comes from. The rest is optional.

This is what's breaking Super's fans' minds. They spent years claiming that the original manga and Super were one in the same, only for Toriyama to completely break that talking point with a GT inspired project of all things.

[ZeroNeonix]

I think it's more likely that either:

A. The bugs were not part of the original script, and they just threw them in there as a random detail, not considering the implications. I mean, none of the bugs play a critical role in the plot, including the heal bugs.

B. They just forgot about the fusion bugs by the time they got around to writing the finale.

They may have been introduced to indicate that the earrings used by the Kais were made using something found in the bugs, which would explain the fusion capabilities.

That is an interesting idea. I don't think it occurred to them, but it's interesting. I could see the jewels of the Potara being made from ground up Fusion Bugs or something. If that's the case, if used, Goku and Vegeta would have become Vegito, rather than getting a new fusion.

I think it would have been funnier if, instead of the bugs just going missing, Hybis was found munching on them, like a snack.

"What? I was hungry."

[johnboy1]

That said, in principle, there is one main anime timeline—the one that the original author, Toriyama, was involved in. I don’t see the need for a second, separate main anime timeline that contradicts the first.

Toriyama created Dragon Ball, but he does not encompass it. My breakdown is not about "what counts" but about "what is". Dragon Ball GT, for example, was the direct continuation of the anime continuity and was made as such. It was the primary product of the Dragon Ball IP during its run, the face of the franchise. When Battle of Gods came along and ignored it, it didn't cease to exist. It's still there, along with the continuity it was a part of. That's why there's multiple "prominent" anime continuities: Because there have been multiple prominent anime series that do not coexist with each other. Whether Toriyama was involved or how much he was involved is not the litmus test.

The manga, by contrast, has no such issues, or at least not to any notable degree. There's the even-more-kiddified story segments in Dragon Ball SD, but that was always a secondary venture for the brand. There's the reincarnated-as-Yamcha story, but that was done on the corporate equivalent of a lark. In practice, there is only one manga continuity of any import.

[BernardoCairo]

They clearly didn't have anyone who could animate an actual hand to hand fight, so it was the best thing they could come up with.

The team had talented animators, but the absence of Toriyama's drafts was likely a major challenge. They were suddenly tasked with relying on their own storyboards to animate an entire series, rather than just a movie or two...

[Makaioshin]

Really like the capping off at the end with Daimao Koo. A quick wrap up happy ending delivered by an overeager but well-meaning fool. He is one of the really bright spots in this show.

As for the main fight, the animation remains incredible. The scenario really does a disservice to their work. It is a passionless bout against a giant who can delivers very little resistance or even dialogue. It is a movie ending dragged out over several episodes so Vegeta and Goku could showcase their signature techniques in these forms without any real progess.

Overall, a very flat show that gives up on its own story in the last act. An adventure in description only culminating in a fight without weight. In this way, it really does accomplish being a true love letter to GT.

I look forward to the RPG remake.

[nineko]

Surely that ranks up there as one of the best Kamehameha's we've ever seen? Just majestic.

This I can agree with.

[Basaku]

I'm genuinely happy that they mostly ignored Super here, because it sets the precedent that not all new Dragon Ball content needs to follow some arbitrary canon and limits its own storytelling for the sake of it

Ok so Daima didn't limit itself so... where exactly is this amazing storytelling that wouldn't be possible or severly hindered if it was tied to Super?

[Mister_Popo]

That said, in principle, there is one main anime timeline—the one that the original author, Toriyama, was involved in. I don’t see the need for a second, separate main anime timeline that contradicts the first.

Toriyama created Dragon Ball, but he does not encompass it. My breakdown is not about "what counts" but about "what is". Dragon Ball GT, for example, was the direct continuation of the anime continuity and was made as such. It was the primary product of the Dragon Ball IP during its run, the face of the franchise. When Battle of Gods came along and ignored it, it didn't cease to exist. It's still there, along with the continuity it was a part of. That's why there's multiple "prominent" anime continuities: Because there have been multiple prominent anime series that do not coexist with each other. Whether Toriyama was involved or how much he was involved is not the litmus test.

The manga, by contrast, has no such issues, or at least not to any notable degree. There's the even-more-kiddified story segments in Dragon Ball SD, but that was always a secondary venture for the brand. There's the reincarnated-as-Yamcha story, but that was done on the corporate equivalent of a lark. In practice, there is only one manga continuity of any import.

"What counts" or assigning value to something is something we do ourselves—it is not an objective fact. That’s why I deliberately avoid using the term "canon" to refer to the main timeline, as it would imply that one work of art within the Dragon Ball franchise has more right to exist than another. As far as I’m concerned, that would be needlessly arbitrary.

You mention that Akira Toriyama does not fully encompass Dragon Ball, which is true. However, there is a clear difference in how involved he was in GT versus Super. Toriyama was closely involved in the creation of Dragon Ball Super. He wrote the story and designed the characters for the series. In contrast, his role in Dragon Ball GT was limited to designing a few characters and approving the title. He also described GT as a grand "side story."
That said, I don’t think it’s arbitrary to refer to main continuity as a broad descriptor for everything Toriyama oversaw up until very recently, simply for the sake of discussion. By using the term main continuity, I am not saying that Dragon Ball Super is better than GT (even though I personally think it is). It’s more of a semantic distinction based on common sense to facilitate the conversation.

It is true that Toriyama’s involvement can no longer be considered the ultimate deciding factor in what constitutes main continuity. However, everything added after the Granolah and Super Hero arcs—and possibly even after Daima (remains to be seen, but i stil think it makes the most sense if the contradictions were resolved within the same timeline) — will still be considered an expansion of the same timeline. Meanwhile, Dragon Ball GT remains a self-contained side story with no further continuation, apart from the reuse of certain concepts.

As for the statement "The manga, by contrast, has no such issues," I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that everything in the manga is made by the same author? That’s not entirely true, as it is a co-project between Toriyama and Toyotarou.

You also state, "In practice, there is only one manga continuity of any import." However, in reality, the anime is the only continuity that has the ability to incorporate everything into a single narrative. If the Dragon Ball Super anime ever returns, it can adapt all events following Battle of Gods into one comprehensive storyline, by retelling Broly. This is in contrast to the manga continuity, which did not fully cover Resurrection F and only briefly referenced the events of Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Ok so Daima didn't limit itself so... where exactly is this amazing storytelling that wouldn't be possible or severly hindered if it was tied to Super?

I don't think it's a matter of not being able to tie them together, but rather not wanting to. Toriyama decided for whatever reason that he wanted this to be its own standalone project. I doubt there's any deep or secret reason for it, he may have just felt more comfortable working directly after his original manga instead of Super.

[Kid Goku X Shenron]

The good: No fusion
The bad: The final fight/villain

I have a question...this is a show aimed at kids. Do kids really like it ?
Both Super (until the UI arc) and Daima have had bad viewership. Both aimed at kids. So who is this for is my question.

Like sure Kuu/Duu are lovable goofs, Glorio/Panzy are a breath of FRESH NEEDED AIR. But Gomah is literally a blank page of a invincible villain with that deus ex machina 3rd eye. Before the episode I said I bet one of 2 things will happen either fusion is introduced or Goku doesn't defeat the villain again and someone else will. Like if Goku already had SSJ4 after training post Buu saga WTF did we need Neva to unlock it ? That makes no sense to me. Could he not do it as a mini form ? That part bothered me the most. Toriyama said he hates being predictable and in that pursuit has made DB incredibly predictable. I love the man he's the greatest artist to draw but his writing leaves a lot to be desired.

I hate fusion and I'm starting to hate Kamehameha. They're genuinely making me hate one of the coolest things with the Kamehameha. The reason being that almost every fight they show the kamehameha. MAKE US MISS IT PLEASE. Stop milking it every fight. When you show off something so often to milk it it starts to lose its value, charm. Introduce new cool techniques. Less is more. Please tell me i'm not the only one feeling this way. And the fight I thought was disappointing, please introduce more creative ways to power up besides screaming all the time. Which is why I loved UIs introduction because it was different to the usual yelling like crazy. I don't know the fight didn't seem cool in any way it's just punch kick punch kick I was hoping for cool martial arts choreography. But I'll excuse them for this because of Gomahs size making that probably impossible.

Gomah is an awful villain. I feel the same way about him like I did with Pilaf as a character. It's a gag character that's not really funny or interesting in any way. And the 3rd eye thing ruined it for me. It's essentially impossible to defeat someone when they have the 3rd eye which is a problem. And only way of defeating him is hitting him 3x in the back of the head...YAWN.

Before Toriyama's passing I wished DB was given off to other new talented writers. Why can't Toei do a draft of talented writers for DB. Let each write a short story and pick the best ones. Simple as that. Same with the art. It's clear DB will live on forever like other big comic book IPs so why not treat it better ? This bad writing is going to hurt Toei too in the future because figures/merchandise might not be so popular which makes them less money. When SSJ Goku figures of Namek saga sell better than anything released in the last decade it tells you that writing is a major issue. To me DB is great when death is a possibility, when tension is big, when dialogue is snappy and not so cringe like today. Even OG DB had this, was brutal I mean kid Goku KILLED SO MANY PEOPLE. It had its cutesy goofy moments but the dialogue was also very mature and ahead of its time at times. Like in my head I'm thinking about a specific scenario that if Goku meets up with Bardock the show will make it very by the numbers right. How cool would and could it be if Goku clashes with Bardock initially because of the Saiyans genocidal murderous ways. Toriyama/Toyotarou would probably not even think about that aspect and would turn it into a bland ''cool, my son'' ''hey you're my dad?'' and just move on. I would hate if Goku's untapped Saiyan arc would just be brushed off with a single scene smh. That would legit piss me off. There's so many cool possibilities from a writing perspective that gives them depth but instead they always neglect it. The best thing Toyotarou can do is consume a lot of quality media and gain a new writing perspective on depth to stories.

I know this was very harsh but we all love DB right and we all want it to be the best it can be. I think it's cool that our community demands better. That's how it should be. I still enjoy whatever DB content we get even if I don't love it. DB is what created anime as we know it. So if you love any piece of anime you gotta respect DB.

Quick things I loved:
Duu/Kuu/Glorio/Panzy/Arinsu
Humor involving Vegeta ( I almost laughed as hard as I did when Goku shoved his power pole up Murasakis ass lol).
Those few minutes of Goku going through SSJ1-2-3 and culminating in SSJ4 was arguably top 10 DB moment ever. It was the best Daima moment for me. THE ANIMATION MY GOD...I don't think there is a more beautiful animation not just in DB but ANIME in general.

I really hope we see a lot more of Duu/Kuu/Glorio/Panzy. They should be part of the gang going forward. Toriyama can create fun characters and this was no exception (except Gomah).

[tonysoprano300]

I think the continuity definitely makes zero since in connection with Super, which could have been a good thing if this served as a bit of a reboot but since that's not what it is AFAIK then I feel like it kind of doesn't matter

[Basaku]

Ok so Daima didn't limit itself so... where exactly is this amazing storytelling that wouldn't be possible or severly hindered if it was tied to Super?

I don't think it's a matter of not being able to tie them together, but rather not wanting to. Toriyama decided for whatever reason that he wanted this to be its own standalone project. I doubt there's any deep or secret reason for it, he may have just felt more comfortable working directly after his original manga instead of Super.

Whether that was/is even the case remains to be seen tho. My point was in response to a suggestion that canon somehow limits the storytelling and thus we would be robbed from quaity writing in Daima. To which I responded where was that quality then?

[johnboy1]

As for the statement "The manga, by contrast, has no such issues," I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that everything in the manga is made by the same author? That’s not entirely true, as it is a co-project between Toriyama and Toyotarou.

By "issues", I didn't mean anything regarding authorship. I meant other manga that are prominent enough works to be considered as a major continuity in the Dragon Ball IP. Like I said, Dragon Ball SD was always a sideshow, the Yamcha comic was practically a meme, and the various Heroes manga are promotional gimmicks. Whereas you have three different major anime series that cannot coexist (GT, Super, Daima), there's no major manga publications that can't take place in the continuity of the original manga.

[Kid Goku X Shenron]

An absolute disaster mess of storytelling and for what? Because they couldn't have Kibitoshin refuse in 1 gag scene and a quick explanation for SSJ4 not appearing in Super? It's literally all it would take

The little gremlin in me finds it way funnier that they don't explain anything and then just leave the entire hardcore fanbase confused about Dragon Ball's oficcial canon timeline™. I don't think it's that confusing for casual audiences, everyone knows comic book super-heroes and how many different versions and stories they have, as long as Toei keep their branding consistent, I can't see why not have a "Super" brand and a "Daima" brand coexisting.

It's also ironic to me how Super Saiyan 4 is one of the biggest obstacles to connect Daima with Super, when Super "uncanonized" GT or whatever.

To be fair, I get why some people would prefer for a connection to be there. Maybe they find the new lore interesting and want it to be part of the other show without the characters and the audience having to be reintroduced to it as if it was their first time seeing this stuff; maybe they like the new concepts introduced in it and want them to be available for all new stories, regardless of their branding. Personally, I'm fine if that lore is kept whithin Daima or if Goku never turns SSJ4 in "Super" branded content, but I can understand why someone would disagree.

But, as I said a few pages ago, I see no benefit in connecting Daima with Super, or even the basic idea of having just one Dragon Ball canon. A canon is only necessary as long as the stories included add something to the overall continuity and impact newer stories... I can see that if you really like Daima's lore, though most of it is so tangential to the actual plot and delievered through the least subtle exposition they could possibily write that I see no reason why any of those ideas can't exist independently from Daima's storyline. Sure, Daima is where we learn Shin's name is Nahare, but I don't think we need Daima to assume that this is probably also his name in Super. Daima itself mentions elements from Super, and that makes sense, both had Toriyama's involvement, so they have shared elements, even if they're not part of the same storyline.

I'm genuinely happy that they mostly ignored Super here, because it sets the precedent that not all new Dragon Ball content needs to follow some arbitrary canon and limits its own storytelling for the sake of it, and not every new installments needs to be THE oficcial Dragon Ball sequel. I find this specially important now that Toriyama is not with us, since anything that doesn't come from him is going to be inherently seem as less "canon" by default.

The only thing that is definitive is the original manga, because that's where every other story comes from. The rest is optional. They want a new Dragon Ball story where Goku becomes a kid and has adventures that have nothing to do with Gods of Destruction or Angels? They can do it! They can even give Goku a new form and not care if it contradicts that other series, because this is a story that can exist on its own

You said it more eloquently then me but just to add I see a lot of people say ''CONTINUITY PROBLEM WHY DIDN'T GOKU TURN SSJ4 AGAINST BEERUS IN SUPER''. Like is that really a continuity error ? Goku is known for hiding or holding back wether his power or form. So maybe Goku knew SSJ4 wouldn't have made a difference. Or maybe he simply held back. I mean we're talking about Goku here. HE ALWAYS HOLDS BACK. I think the explanation made sense. We've seen him train non-stop since he was a child so it's believable that he achieved it by training a ton after the Buu arc which we knew little about and now do. And why he didn't use it...because it wasn't needed. How often did Goku fight in SSJ1 form when he could have done so in SSJ2 or 3. Sometimes he would skip both over and go directly god or blue. I think it's a non issue that fans are turning in a much bigger issue than it is.

I just wish SSJ4 was more in line with GTs design. This reeks to me more of SSJ4 god than anything else.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I just wish SSJ4 was more in line with GTs design. This reeks to me more of SSJ4 god than anything else.

I really missed the black hair from GT, as all that red is a bit much, even though I prefer it over GT's shade. I think they wanted to put their own spin on Ssj4, rather than copy the exact design we got in GT.