Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[tonysoprano300]

An absolute disaster mess of storytelling and for what? Because they couldn't have Kibitoshin refuse in 1 gag scene and a quick explanation for SSJ4 not appearing in Super? It's literally all it would take

The little gremlin in me finds it way funnier that they don't explain anything and then just leave the entire hardcore fanbase confused about Dragon Ball's oficcial canon timeline™. I don't think it's that confusing for casual audiences, everyone knows comic book super-heroes and how many different versions and stories they have, as long as Toei keep their branding consistent, I can't see why not have a "Super" brand and a "Daima" brand coexisting.

It's also ironic to me how Super Saiyan 4 is one of the biggest obstacles to connect Daima with Super, when Super "uncanonized" GT or whatever.

To be fair, I get why some people would prefer for a connection to be there. Maybe they find the new lore interesting and want it to be part of the other show without the characters and the audience having to be reintroduced to it as if it was their first time seeing this stuff; maybe they like the new concepts introduced in it and want them to be available for all new stories, regardless of their branding. Personally, I'm fine if that lore is kept whithin Daima or if Goku never turns SSJ4 in "Super" branded content, but I can understand why someone would disagree.

But, as I said a few pages ago, I see no benefit in connecting Daima with Super, or even the basic idea of having just one Dragon Ball canon. A canon is only necessary as long as the stories included add something to the overall continuity and impact newer stories... I can see that if you really like Daima's lore, though most of it is so tangential to the actual plot and delievered through the least subtle exposition they could possibily write that I see no reason why any of those ideas can't exist independently from Daima's storyline. Sure, Daima is where we learn Shin's name is Nahare, but I don't think we need Daima to assume that this is probably also his name in Super. Daima itself mentions elements from Super, and that makes sense, both had Toriyama's involvement, so they have shared elements, even if they're not part of the same storyline.

I'm genuinely happy that they mostly ignored Super here, because it sets the precedent that not all new Dragon Ball content needs to follow some arbitrary canon and limits its own storytelling for the sake of it, and not every new installments needs to be THE oficcial Dragon Ball sequel. I find this specially important now that Toriyama is not with us, since anything that doesn't come from him is going to be inherently seem as less "canon" by default.

The only thing that is definitive is the original manga, because that's where every other story comes from. The rest is optional. They want a new Dragon Ball story where Goku becomes a kid and has adventures that have nothing to do with Gods of Destruction or Angels? They can do it! They can even give Goku a new form and not care if it contradicts that other series, because this is a story that can exist on its own

You said it more eloquently then me but just to add I see a lot of people say ''CONTINUITY PROBLEM WHY DIDN'T GOKU TURN SSJ4 AGAINST BEERUS IN SUPER''. Like is that really a continuity error ? Goku is known for hiding or holding back wether his power or form. So maybe Goku knew SSJ4 wouldn't have made a difference. Or maybe he simply held back. I mean we're talking about Goku here. HE ALWAYS HOLDS BACK. I think the explanation made sense. We've seen him train non-stop since he was a child so it's believable that he achieved it by training a ton after the Buu arc which we knew little about and now do. And why he didn't use it...because it wasn't needed. How often did Goku fight in SSJ1 form when he could have done so in SSJ2 or 3. Sometimes he would skip both over and go directly god or blue. I think it's a non issue that fans are turning in a much bigger issue than it is.

I just wish SSJ4 was more in line with GTs design. This reeks to me more of SSJ4 god than anything else.

I dont think that makes sense with what we're shown, Goku went all the way up to SSJ3 from the jump, someone who is trying to restrain themselves wouldn't do that and he said it his strongest form. Vegeta was in a fit rage and threw the whole kitchen sink at Beerus yet didnt go SSJ3. Those are legitimately unexplained gaps in the story than any casual observer would question. If you reach hard enough, you can explain any continuity error. The story has to at least give us something to connect the dots.

[Kid Goku X Shenron]

What do you guys think we're getting after Daima? And how long do you think this drought will last?

Great question. I'm fairly certain they will make a movie before a show. Whatever they do please focus on quality over anything else.

DB anime will continue to exist regardless how bad the viewership for Super/Daima has been Ultra Instinct arc aside. You know why ? Because DB makes the most money out of all animes worldwide. To continue making that money they need new anime content which keeps this going.

But they gotta be careful. If the writing doesn't improve a lot the figures/merchandise won't bring in as much money. So they HAVE to do a good job if they know what's good for them. And if these corporate people don't care about the quality then we could reach a point where merchandise income drops off A LOT and this could be the end for DB show/movie content. Like forget DBZ even OG DB figures sell a lot better than Daima/Super figures. Why do you think that is. It's the writing, memorable moments. People buy figures they feel an attachment to. I'm buying SSJ4 Daima Goku but I'm not really overly excited about it...not like I would if I bought a cool SSJ1 namek Goku or even SSJ4 GT one or even OG DB figures. While GT wasn't great it had moments that are just superior which is why they make SSJ4 canon 3 decades later. Cause it was that good. They would have sold many more figures if they kept the design same as GT though with small tweaks if they had to. I don't hate the SSJ4 daima design but it ain't as cool as GT. To go back to the question I hope they take their sweet time.

[TechExpert2021]

DB anime will continue to exist regardless how bad the viewership for Super/Daima has been Ultra Instinct arc aside.

Toei should've made Daima a streaming exclusive in Japan, much like the rest of the world.

[Hellspawn28]

If Gomah was killed off, would he go to Heaven like Dabra did?

[The Monkey King]

You said it more eloquently then me but just to add I see a lot of people say ''CONTINUITY PROBLEM WHY DIDN'T GOKU TURN SSJ4 AGAINST BEERUS IN SUPER''. Like is that really a continuity error ? Goku is known for hiding or holding back wether his power or form. So maybe Goku knew SSJ4 wouldn't have made a difference. Or maybe he simply held back. I mean we're talking about Goku here. HE ALWAYS HOLDS BACK. I think the explanation made sense.

Anything can make sense if you're deluded enough.

Meanwhile back in reality, no it's a continuity error. Goku says "This is the strongest and most powerful: Super Saiyan 3!" when he's showing off to Beerus. In the manga version he straight up says he has no more transformations. And in the manga version of Goku vs Toppo he calls SSJG his fourth transformation.

Spoiler:

[Brettjr25]

You said it more eloquently then me but just to add I see a lot of people say ''CONTINUITY PROBLEM WHY DIDN'T GOKU TURN SSJ4 AGAINST BEERUS IN SUPER''. Like is that really a continuity error ? Goku is known for hiding or holding back wether his power or form. So maybe Goku knew SSJ4 wouldn't have made a difference. Or maybe he simply held back. I mean we're talking about Goku here. HE ALWAYS HOLDS BACK. I think the explanation made sense.

Anything can make sense if you're deluded enough.

Meanwhile back in reality, no it's a continuity error. Goku says "This is the strongest and most powerful: Super Saiyan 3!" when he's showing off to Beerus. In the manga version he straight up says he has no more transformations. And in the manga version of Goku vs Toppo he calls SSJG his fourth transformation.

Spoiler:

Fourth transformation??? But what about "Great Ape"? >_>

[cuartas]

In retrospective, the guy of the video reacting to Daima being announced saying: "We don't want this, WHERE'S MORO" was the hero we needed but don't deserve.

What an utter disappointment, but the worst of all of this is that is canon now, what do we make out of this series and the continuity of the whole series now?
Another disappointment, all the awesome schedule, the production values, the TALENT in the form of directors, animators, even freaking Hisada came back to animate an episode! all of this to use it in such a pointless show like this instead of Super, and the interesting and exciting ways Ultra instinct and Ultra ego could be portrayed in animation with this level of quality, damn man, it makes me quite angry.

The show from top to bottom was a slice of life, as everyone pointed out at the start, there wasn't really nothing or no one at risk, no lives were taken or in real danger, etc.
The adventure part was nice for nostalgics, but it seemed like yet another GT made cannon, our protagonists were never really surpassed, but just got tired of hitting a yet another regenerative enemy, the fight animation wise was awesome, but it quickly turned into Goku or Vegeta hitting a giant blob to oblivion with an always moving camera, there wasn't real hand to hand combat and such.

And the ending, man, the stupid ending, there were rumors of: "Hey, maybe they're gonna get memory wiped, or there's gonna be a clever explanation about how these transformations were never used nor mentioned in Super" or "Hey, maybe this fight will spark Berus' dream/premonition about that strong warrior that started their journey to earth", but nope, they (or Akira, idk) chose the worst one ever, that Goku trained hard to get that form, so Neva's involvement was just the push he needed?
In any case, the continuity is broken, there's plot hole galore and there's no way to fix it, because both Super and Daima are canon, and even if Toriyama was alive I wouldn't think he would be interested on fixing the mess he created, even more when, well, a lot of Daima's ideas were recycled from a non-canon series like GT, including SSJ4's design.

THE ONLY good thing about Daima was the animation, from start to finish, the animation roster was amazing, props to Takahashi, Shida, Manabe, Onishi, the redemption arc for Yamamuro, Kubota, Hisada, Nakatsuru, Anno's Debut along with other new and non-japanese animators making this a god tier animated series and with plenty of Sakuga, also the fact that Tate wasn't there was a nice plus! but like I said before, all this wasted in such underwhelming show, dammit!

Well, such a bad taste in my mouth, the manga is barely coming back, no sign of super continuing, let alone having this golden oportunity to have these animators back in a future anime, I'm disappointed, sad and angry at the same time to be honest

[PhantomSaiyan]

Finally watched the finale. I got a little emotional knowing this is the last toriyama adventure I'm ever going to experience. Even if they will end up using his name for next projects with the excuse of having some form of notes or concept art from him, I think we can all agree that it will never be the same again.

Of course as always the fight is animated beautifully. While goku's wild and monkey life fighting style is gone in his adult form, and he didn't really have a moveset that unique to him (videogames are going to make up most of his moves) the fight was intense and daima's ssj4 on adult goku looked awesome imo. Still not sure which design I prefer though

The final fight however lacked stakes and interesting personal conflict between goku and gomah, that's one criticism I'll agree with, along with the colossal disappointment of piccolo's entire character in this show. First we thought he was going to at least defeat one tamagami then he didn't, then he forgets the namekian language, and he goes on to contrribute almost nothing except for a conversation with neva. I'd say that from daima alone it's really hard to tell he was toriyama's favorite. My theory is that since super hero and daima were being produced together, they knew he was going to have more spotlight in the movie so they decided to limit his presence here. A damn shame, but at least we have super hero

Gohan not even being in a single credits image like the rest of the characters was disappointing as well. I'd say my theory from the last paragraph could apply here as well. Only difference with piccolo is that maybe they felt more inclined to include him since his unique ties with the demon realm (but then again, why was buu left out once more?)

I liked however majin kuu's role in this finale. My boy really deserved a W, most wholesome character in the show, and he made the ending really wholesome. I wasn't expecting anything different from a toriyama story, I'm satisfied on that front. Happy ending with the characters saying goodbye, and panzy forcing vegeta to wave along lmao I liked that a lot. Arinsu got a good ending too, and I'm happy about that, she's too hot so she had to be kept around lol nobody will complain about that.

The fusion bugs however, while not a huge deal, did piss me off a little bit, I felt trolled and a little betrayed, like the show made a promise to me and didn't follow up on it, but whatever.

Anyway, the final post credits gag scene, is both hilarious, and beautifully animated. Seriously, that might be the most well animated sequence of the whole show, fights included lol it was so smooth and fun to look at.

Vegeta and Goku's final conversation abotu ssj4 was funny, but to me it represents a little bit of a step back compared to super: goku once again being one step above vegeta. I prefer how in super they both end up pursuing different paths of power so nobody really feels left behind in the dust. I'm not even going to talk about how apparently he reached it by himself without neva. I guess I can headcanon it as neva allowed him to use it in child form. Makes sense considering that throughout daima goku wasn't even sure he could turn ssj1 at first, so maybe he needed the extra help with 4.

Which brings me to the heated topic: literally everyone is talking about the canonicity and continuity of the 2 shows. There's not much I can add, there's people thinking they are both canon but in different continuities, and even people who believe they are in the same continuity somehow, Yeah, idk how that would work. Shin and Kibith being unfused, ssj3 vegeta (this one is admittedly not really a problem) and ssj4 goku never using this form again. I know dragonball has always been full of retcons, but come on, retcons usually added more info on pre established facts without directly contradicting anything, like the potara retcon, or goku being an alien even. This is a completely different level.

If they really are in the same continuity like some people believe, then they've really said "fuck off, you do the work for us and figure out how these 2 shows connect" which is insane since they could have fixed the shin and kibith problem with a quick fusion bugs gag, and the ssj4 problem with literally one line of dialogue from goku implying he can't use it. But whatever, imo discussing canonicity at this point is useless (always has been to a certain degree with dragon ball), toriyama is dead and this is what he has left us. Let's just enjoy the dragon ball universe without petty arguments like "my show is better than your show because toriyama was more involved" as if canonicity is somehow a seal of quality.

Overall, idk what rating I'd give daima. This show made me feel emotions I hadn't felt in a long time, I was a kid again. Super also did this to some degree, but on the other hand it had a lot of lows that I feel like daima didn't have in my opinion. Maybe a bit of an inflated score because I'm a dragonball fanboy, but I'd gladly give it an 8 for now. Maybe it will go down when the honeymoon phase wears off or maybe not.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

In retrospective, the guy of the video reacting to Daima being announced saying: "We don't want this, WHERE'S MORO" was the hero we needed but don't deserve.

Moro and Granola were never getting animated, regardless of whether or not Daima existed.

I got a little emotional knowing this is the last toriyama adventure I'm ever going to experience. Even if they will end up using his name for next projects with the excuse of having some form of notes or concept art from him, I think we can all agree that it will never be the same again.

Dragon Ball as we know it is indeed over, and it honestly couldn't have gotten a better send off. Toei brought out all their top animators and gave them the time they needed to get things right, and Toriyama ended up being more hands on with this than any project in the past 10 years. If there was ever a way to honor an author and his work, this was it.

Vegeta and Goku's final conversation abotu ssj4 was funny, but to me it represents a little bit of a step back compared to super: goku once again being one step above vegeta.

I have no issue with this. Goku is the person everyone looks to when things get tough, so it's fitting that he got a form exclusive to him that puts him above the rest. What matters to me is how the character of Vegeta is written, and Daima nailed it. He may not have been the strongest character, but he was definitely the most confident, as shown in his fighting style with his arms crossed for most of his fights. Vegeta's character has finally come full circle in Daima, something Super failed to do. He started out very arrogant in the Saiyan and Namek arcs, became very insecure during the Cell and Buu arcs, and now he's finally the confident warrior we expected to see following his development at the end of the Buu arc. We've never seen a Vegeta this confident in himself before, and he managed to back it up with Ssj3. In Super he reversed back to his insecure self from the Cell arc.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Dragon Ball as we know it is indeed over, and it honestly couldn't have gotten a better send off. Toei brought out all their top animators and gave them the time they needed to get things right, and Toriyama ended up being more hands on with this than any project in the past 10 years. If there was ever a way to honor an author and his work, this was it.

Couldn't agree more. The final series being beautifully animated, and also being the first dragonball product that actually mimicked toriyama's artstyle from his later years to some degree, was a perfect ending to his legacy. I could feel his touch throughout the entire show, the vehicles, all of the characters, they just oozed toriyama's essence.

I have no issue with this. Goku is the person everyone looks to when things get tough, so it's fitting that he got a form exclusive to him that puts him above the rest. What matters to me is how the character of Vegeta is written, and Daima nailed it. He may not have been the strongest character, but he was definitely the most confident, as shown in his fighting style with his arms crossed for most of his fights. Vegeta's character has finally come full circle in Daima, something Super failed to do. He started out very arrogant in the Saiyan and Namek arcs, became very insecure during the Cell and Buu arcs, and now he's finally the confident warrior we expected to see following his development at the end of the Buu arc. We've never seen a Vegeta this confident in himself before, and he managed to back it up with Ssj3. In Super he reversed back to his insecure self from the Cell arc.

That's a good point there. Vegeta definitely acted in character for a post buu saga story, that's very true. When written by toriyama directly like here and in the movies Vegeta always feels right. I also didn't like how in the Super anime he went back too hard into his rivalry. I was fine with it in the manga and super hero more because there his dynamic with Goku gives off a way friendlier or even sibling type of vibe rather than pure hatred lol still, I definitely miss him being on equal footing with goku, after getting a taste for it in super I guess I can't easily go back lol but I'm sure that in the daima universe vegeta will simply train and someday reach ssj4 like he did with god and blue. And I can't be too mad either because his ssj3 fight was badass

[JulieYBM]

This will get more traffic here, so I'll post it here, but Dan Mora—the hottest artist at DC Comics right now—drew some Super Saiyan 4 Gokuu fan art.

[johnboy1]

Moro and Granola were never getting animated, regardless of whether or not Daima existed.

On what do you base this assertion?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Moro and Granola were never getting animated, regardless of whether or not Daima existed.

On what do you base this assertion?

There's a legal battle going on between Shueisha (the manga rights holder) and Capsule Corp. Tokyo (the anime rights holder). Until the issue is resolved, which it may never be, we're not getting any Moro or Granola animated project.

[JulieYBM]

Moro and Granola were never getting animated, regardless of whether or not Daima existed.

On what do you base this assertion?

There's a legal battle going on between Shueisha (the manga rights holder) and Capsule Corp. Tokyo (the anime rights holder). Until the issue is resolved, which it may never be, we're not getting any Moro or Granola animated project.

That won't last forever. Animated adaptions are inevitable.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

That won't last forever. Animated adaptions are inevitable.

It started when Toriyama was still alive, and even he couldn't get them to get on the same page. As far as I know, things haven't improved. I do agree that it'll likely be resolved eventually, but that eventually could be ten years from now. Considering the direction the world is heading in, I don't know if we have that long.

[JulieYBM]

That won't last forever. Animated adaptions are inevitable.

It started when Toriyama was still alive, and even he couldn't get them to get on the same page. As far as I know, things haven't improved. I do agree that it'll likely be resolved eventually, but that eventually could be ten years from now. Considering the direction the world is heading in, I don't know if we have that long.

You'll get used to waiting for things. Ten years is a drop in the bucket.

As for the world, well, considering how much trans women like me are on the chopping block, I don't really see some comic being adapted into an animated format to be all that pressing an issue.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

You'll get used to waiting for things. Ten years is a drop in the bucket.

Damn.

As for the world, well, considering how much trans women like me are on the chopping block, I don't really see some comic being adapted into an animated format to be all that pressing an issue.

It seems like everyone in the U.S is on the chopping block. Only 46 months to go...damn again. I like how this topic went from focusing on Daima's 20th episode, to canon, and now maybe to politics.

[JulieYBM]

You'll get used to waiting for things. Ten years is a drop in the bucket.

Damn.

I don't know how long you've done the fandom thing, but I've been a Dragon Ball fan since 1998 and created my forum account here in 2006 lol. Waiting for things ceases to be a big deal after a while, especially as you get older. Ten years? Oh, I can do that. Easy. I have plenty of other things to preoccupy my time.

It seems like everyone in the U.S is on the chopping block. Only 46 months to go...damn again. I like how this topic went from focusing on Daima's 20th episode, to canon, and now maybe to politics.

I was going to make a joke about how I love living in unprecedented times, but then I remembered that I've been living in unprecedented times my entire life, so that joke falls flat lol.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I don't know how long you've done the fandom thing, but I've been a Dragon Ball fan since 1998 and created my forum account here in 2006 lol.

I got into the franchise back in 2004, so roughly a decade before this revival started. The games definitely carried the franchise during the early 2000s on the PS2. 2008-2012 were by far the most dull time to be a fan, because you had a combination of no new material, and games that just weren't good like the Ps2 ones. Battle of Gods in 2013 really breathed new life into Dragon Ball.

I was going to make a joke about how I love living in unprecedented times, but then I remembered that I've been living in unprecedented times my entire life, so that joke falls flat lol.

I miss the days when things were just boring and nothing newsworthy was going on. I guess those days never truly existed, but things were definitely more stable than they were now. I honestly worry about what I'm going to see in the news every morning I wake up.

[ZeroNeonix]

This will get more traffic here, so I'll post it here, but Dan Mora—the hottest artist at DC Comics right now—drew some Super Saiyan 4 Gokuu fan art.

Daaaaaang. That's some good art. I'd leave a like, but it's on that website.