Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[ZeroNeonix]

There's a legal battle going on between Shueisha (the manga rights holder) and Capsule Corp. Tokyo (the anime rights holder). Until the issue is resolved, which it may never be, we're not getting any Moro or Granola animated project.

This is so freaking stupid. Like toddlers, fighting over a toy.

[Basaku]

That won't last forever. Animated adaptions are inevitable.

That's my view on it as well. When the manga concludes (probably at Black Freeza finale) Shueisha will start blowing kisses to Toei/Iyoku again looking to get an anime adaptation to bump the manga salds again.

Money always wins in the end.

[NeoZ Duwang]

Ok so Daima didn't limit itself so... where exactly is this amazing storytelling that wouldn't be possible or severly hindered if it was tied to Super?

Basically anything they wanted to do that contradicts Super. SSJ3 [Vegeta] and 4 can be a thing, same for unfused Shin. I know some people thought of possible explanations, like the characters losing their forms or Shin fusing again, but that's lame to me and would make Daima feel even more pointless

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I know some people thought of possible explanations, like the characters losing their forms or Shin fusing again, but that's lame to me and would make Daima feel even more pointless.

Nowhere near as lame as people pushing the theory that the whole story story was a dream Gohan was having...yeah, that was a thing. That was the best thing people could come up with to explain his absence...even though it was explained in the 1st episode.

[sangofe]

Moro and Granola were never getting animated, regardless of whether or not Daima existed.

On what do you base this assertion?

There's a legal battle going on between Shueisha (the manga rights holder) and Capsule Corp. Tokyo (the anime rights holder). Until the issue is resolved, which it may never be, we're not getting any Moro or Granola animated project.

Do you really think that's still ongoing with Iyoku talking so much lately?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Do you really think that's still ongoing with Iyoku talking so much lately?

His company owns the rights to the anime and games, so he can talk as much as he wants about those, it's the manga he can't discuss.

[TechExpert2021]

Moro and Granola were never getting animated, regardless of whether or not Daima existed.

On what do you base this assertion?

There's a legal battle going on between Shueisha (the manga rights holder) and Capsule Corp. Tokyo (the anime rights holder). Until the issue is resolved, which it may never be, we're not getting any Moro or Granola animated project.

What caused the legal battle between Shueisha and Capsule Corporation Tokyo regarding the DB IP rights?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

What caused the legal battle between Shueisha and Capsule Corporation Tokyo regarding the DB IP rights?

Both parties had a different vision of how the franchise should be handled. Shiesha wanted to sit on it and do basically nothing outside the manga, while Iyoko wanted to capitalize on Super's success with more animated projects. Once it became clear they wouldn't see eye to eye, Iyoko left and took the anime and game rights with him, which resulted in Daima. How he got those rights away from them is unknown.

[NeoZ Duwang]

Nowhere near as lame as people pushing the theory that the whole story story was a dream Gohan was having...yeah, that was a thing. That was the best thing people could come up with to explain his absence...even though it was explained in the 1st episode.

Oh, for sure. Any theory that implies that Daima didn't actually happen is far, far worse than simply claiming that the characters just refused to use their new transformations, or that Shin and Kibito fused again (for some reason) or whatever. But I think they're all bad anyway and clearly do nothing for Daima and only exist so it can be part of Super's continuity, which is the worst type of theory in my opinion.

Also, I decided to reply to a few previous posts, because I'm an idiot that posted before reading all of them.
...but I do have some more to say about the subject.

Whether that was/is even the case remains to be seen tho. My point was in response to a suggestion that canon somehow limits the storytelling and thus we would be robbed from quaity writing in Daima. To which I responded where was that quality then?

My argument is not about quality, but about vision (No, I don't mean some kind of "virtuous artistic vision" or something. I mean it in a more general sense, in a "that's what they wanted to do for this project" way).

Dragon Ball Daima wants to be a sequel to the Buu Arc, nothing more. It takes place at a previous point than Super, it avoids most of the new elements introduced by it and what's here is mostly just part of lore dumps that don't actually require any of them to be part of the same storyline or tiny references that are barely commented on. You could make it fit with Super if you really want, but that's not what Daima is trying to do and I don't think it needed to.

I don't particularly care about SSJ3 Vegeta or SSJ4, but I can see why they would ignore Super for the sake of giving these characters new transformations in this celebratory show for a series that has been all about transformations for most of its lifetime, and why they wouldn't want to give some very specific explanations like "they can only transform if they touch water or are in Makai" that might not be necessary for Daima's own story. While I personally prefer Shin being unfused and like him better that way, I know most fans don't care about this character... But it seems Toriyama liked him enough to unfuse him off screen and make him part of the main cast. Those are ideas that go against Super and what it is/was doing.

Sure, if Toriyama and Toei wanted, they absolutely could change Daima's story to fit with Super's. They could either remove those elements or slightly alter then, and the overall plot wouldn't even change that much at all. But why? Would Super be better because of it? Would Daima be? Personally, I don't think so. None of these shows would benefit from being in the same continuity, and so I'm fine with things as they are.

Of course, some people might disagree with me, and that's fine. Maybe you'd like to see SSJ4 and Ultra Instinct being using together, or maybe you like the new lore and want it to be used in Super's new story arcs. That's valid, but I'm fine with it all being sepparated if they don't want to make them part of the same continuity.

Regardless, my main point was never that Daima itself needs to be sepparated from Super. Sure, It's what they chose to do and it's what I personally prefer, since it's just a smaller and inconsequential story that would just be filler to Super anyway. However, I think that the precedent is what is important here. Some stories might not work at all in this grander Dragon Ball timeline, even if Daima didn't need to be one of them. Canon can limit storytelling, it can get in the way of new ideas. Sometimes you just have to get a new Dragon Ball thing out and not have all that new stuff from another story that is still in progress and you don't want to use get in the way.

You said it more eloquently then me but just to add I see a lot of people say ''CONTINUITY PROBLEM WHY DIDN'T GOKU TURN SSJ4 AGAINST BEERUS IN SUPER''. Like is that really a continuity error ? Goku is known for hiding or holding back wether his power or form. So maybe Goku knew SSJ4 wouldn't have made a difference. Or maybe he simply held back. I mean we're talking about Goku here. HE ALWAYS HOLDS BACK. I think the explanation made sense. We've seen him train non-stop since he was a child so it's believable that he achieved it by training a ton after the Buu arc which we knew little about and now do. And why he didn't use it...because it wasn't needed. How often did Goku fight in SSJ1 form when he could have done so in SSJ2 or 3. Sometimes he would skip both over and go directly god or blue. I think it's a non issue that fans are turning in a much bigger issue than it is.

I will go further and say that it isn't a continuity error because Battle of Gods was written in a world where Daima wasn't a thing. Why Goku doesn' use SSJ4 against Beerus? Because, factually speaking, it didn't exist yet. There's really no other explanation and that's fine. He used SSJ3 because it was his strongest form there.

This is what I mean when I talk about "vision" and stuff. Inserting Daima in that continuity imposes a new interpretation of older scenes, when it might not be what the author intended, even after the newer project has been released.

The only reason why Goku doesn't ever use SSJ4 in Super is because it didn't exist, and I genuinely don't believe that Daima wants you to think it now retroactively has always been a thing Super's Goku could do and just didn't, because of how standalone and isolated from everything else it is

[~~
Anyway, I hope I was at least able to explain myself properly. That was quite a wall of text for someone who usually just lurks around here :v

[sangofe]

What caused the legal battle between Shueisha and Capsule Corporation Tokyo regarding the DB IP rights?

Both parties had a different vision of how the franchise should be handled. Shiesha wanted to sit on it and do basically nothing outside the manga, while Iyoko wanted to capitalize on Super's success with more animated projects. Once it became clear they wouldn't see eye to eye, Iyoko left and took the anime and game rights with him, which resulted in Daima. How he got those rights away from them is unknown.

I've read about the issue and even posted about it. It seems like you're interpreting and making assumptions about what Shueisha wanted to do.

[Scsigs]

I think it’s rather fine to consider Daima, Super, GT, Neko Majin as different branches of the original manga that could happen. Basically, the manga is the “main story” which can branch out to different sequels, and some of those sequels can branch out even further.

THANK YOU!!!

I honestly don't know why this is so hard for fans to accept. Not everything has to line up perfectly with everything. We can have a sequel series in GT that sets out to provide a definitive end to the story, we can have a limited 20 episode series that provides closure to the Buu arc, we can have Super that explores these different universes, etc... If someone has an idea that lines up with everything, then great. If said idea doesn't line up with anything but is still good on its own, then that's great too.

Because people want linear storytelling & continuity to matter in Dragon Ball. I think, implicitly, most people in the fandom agree that the old pre-BOG movies aren't in continuity, nor is GT despite how much it tries to pull from prior continuity. People want something familiar & reminiscent of previous works in a series, they want something new that feels consistent with the previous stuff, & they want good storytelling. Now, has everything Toriyama made good storytelling? No, but it has more often than GT did.

Spoiler:

I see what you're trying to do, but I'd say there are four "prominent" continuities. These four timelines, encompassing the works that have stood as the primary face of the Dragon Ball IP at the time of their production, I give in rough chronological order below:


Manga (or THE canon timeline, if only one must be supreme)

• Jaco (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball manga [Kanzenban] (first ~517 chapters + Trunks chapter)
  2008 Jump special manga (2 chapters)
  Super manga (first ~4 chapters)
  Resurrection 'F' manga (3 chapters)
  Resurrection 'F' movie (last half hour or so)*
  Super manga (next ~38 chapters)
  Broly movie
  Super manga (next ~62 chapters)
  [Whatever comes next with Super]
  Dragon Ball manga [Kanzenban] (final ~2 chapters)

Old Anime (original Z and GT)**

• Bardock special
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Z movie 1 [it doesn't fit, but it kinda has to]
  Z anime (first 118 episodes)
  Trunks special
  Z anime (last 173 episodes)
  GT (64 episodes)
  GT special

New Anime (Kai and Super)

• Jaco manga [?] (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Kai (first 165 episodes)
  2008 Jump special
  Super anime (131 episodes)
  [Adaptations of the two Super films and/or the remaining manga? Only time will tell...]
  Kai (final 2 episodes)

Daima (exactly what it says on the tin)

• Jaco manga [?] (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Kai (first 165 episodes)
  Daima (20 episodes)
  Kai (final 2 episodes)

In addition are a bunch of "micro-continuities" formed by spin-off products and various movies.

*Resurrection 'F' is in an odd spot with its manga adaptation being incomplete, cutting off right before the big transformation reveals and telling the reader to go see the movie. So the last act of the film has to be awkwardly shoved in at this point.

**There are arguments to be made about whether one or more additional Z movies (as well as Episode of Bardock) take place in this timeline, but I don't feel like sitting here and litigating each case.

I'd more say that the Garlic Jr. Arc of Z takes place in the movie timeline set up by the Dead Zone movie & a few of the later movies. It's a sequel to Dead Zone (which, can't take place in any of the timelines from the shows or the manga because it has Goku meet up with Roshi, Krillin, & Bulma, establishes that they know about Gohan, Piccolo gets involved, etc & if it's supposed to take place before the Saiyan Arc, then no one should freak out at Gohan existing when Goku introduces him to them & it logically can't take place after due to the events of the Saiyan Arc, then the Freeza Arc making it so it can't). There's also Icarus, who doesn't exist otherwise in the TV series & doesn't exist in the manga, but does in several of the early Z movies. I think if that arc were a movie instead, this conversation wouldn't even be happening. It seems like that arc is just a bunch of ideas they would've had for a sequel movie, just converted into a short filler arc of the show.

Every now and then? We're talking 3 main anime series post-Z potentially not lining up anymore.

GT was a series that ended back in 1997 and was not well received. Why would a sequel made nearly 20 years later have to be forced to line up with it ? Super has been front and center since 2013, so what's the harm if they ignored it for 20 episodes ? You're talking as if we're getting a separate series every year.

The issue is that Daima is NOT treated and marketed as a "just a small separate 20eps thing". Toriyama's name and statements about official Buu continuation are being repeated all over the press releases and interviews. This is not Heroes anime that went on for 50+ eps yet was treated as a side product by all companies involved. Daima is treated as a main thing. Without specifying whether Super is still also a main thing and connected with Daima or not. And Daima ended on a very "season 2/followup movie" type of a finale cliffhanger, we may easily get one of them in the next year or two. So we're gonna end up with... 1 franchise having 2 main continuities next to each other releasing new stories that don't connect and never confirming one way or another if they will?

An absolute disaster mess of storytelling and for what? Because they couldn't have Kibitoshin refuse in 1 gag scene and a quick explanation for SSJ4 not appearing in Super? It's literally all it would take

I hope we do get some kind of continuation because this seems odd to just have it be a 20-episode arc & not follow it up, regardless of if the continuity lines up or not.

GT was a series that ended back in 1997 and was not well received.

This is a rumor that needs to end already. People were overall having DB fatigue and it wasn't GT's fault. There wasn't smartphone gaming to keep the "hype" alive like now, so series were still allowed to end and the creators didn't have to worry about what will all the gacha companies do now with no new content.

GT was well received enough to the point that even 30 years later new series are pandering to it's fans. I'll take what the officials do over hearsays from this fanbase. Even the most popular, millions-making game franchises like Dokkan are having GT celebrations now. If it wasn't well received, they wouldn't be doing this.

I can see that. The manga started in '84, the first anime in '86. The manga ended in '94 & the Z anime in '95, with GT trying to keep up the hype train & draw in a new audience of kids. DB taking a rest for as long as it did in terms of new anime stuff in Japan helped give it time off so they could get something refreshed out. What helped was Toriyama being so offended by Evolution that he wanted to say "fuck you" to Fox & produce something better, which lead to a decade of new DB content. I think GT also benefits from this, as it's no longer seen as the last official DB content & people can just retroactively look at it like an elseworlds tale that doesn't matter int he slightest.

That's a good point there. Vegeta definitely acted in character for a post buu saga story, that's very true. When written by toriyama directly like here and in the movies Vegeta always feels right. I also didn't like how in the Super anime he went back too hard into his rivalry. I was fine with it in the manga and super hero more because there his dynamic with Goku gives off a way friendlier or even sibling type of vibe rather than pure hatred lol still, I definitely miss him being on equal footing with goku, after getting a taste for it in super I guess I can't easily go back lol but I'm sure that in the daima universe vegeta will simply train and someday reach ssj4 like he did with god and blue. And I can't be too mad either because his ssj3 fight was badass

See, I have that problem moreso with Goku than Vegeta. Vegeta isn't much better since he definitely regressed with his character arc, but Goku, I actively cannot stand when he's written by anyone else than Toriyama in the modern day. He's flanderized into an overly stupid idiot who only actively cares about training, food, & fighting strong people. These are definitely aspects of his character, but Goku's not nearly as stupid or jerkish as Super portrayed him as & it only takes reading the manga, or watching the anime stuff that was directly written by Toriyama to see that. Vegeta, in terms of his regression, seems to have a single-minded focus on surpassing Goku again, even though he admitted to himself that Goku will always be better than him. His character makes more sense when he's focused on keeping in-step with Goku & finding his own way to get stronger.

What caused the legal battle between Shueisha and Capsule Corporation Tokyo regarding the DB IP rights?

Both parties had a different vision of how the franchise should be handled. Shiesha wanted to sit on it and do basically nothing outside the manga, while Iyoko wanted to capitalize on Super's success with more animated projects. Once it became clear they wouldn't see eye to eye, Iyoko left and took the anime and game rights with him, which resulted in Daima. How he got those rights away from them is unknown.

I've read about the issue and even posted about it. It seems like you're interpreting and making assumptions about what Shueisha wanted to do.

This person tends to do that about everything.

[Hugo Boss]

What caused the legal battle between Shueisha and Capsule Corporation Tokyo regarding the DB IP rights?

The dispute arose when Akio Iyoku, the head of the Dragon Ball Room, left Shueisha and formed Capsule Corporation Tokyo, seeking to gain control over the IP’s creative and management rights.

Iyoku had a history of making executive decisions without higher-up approval, such as greenlighting the Sand Land movie. He was also seen as difficult to work with by both Shueisha and animation studios. In 2022, after being reassigned within Shueisha, he left to operate independently and started acting as Toriyama’s representative rather than Shueisha’s. This shift created confusion over who actually controls Dragon Ball’s future, as Shueisha retains the manga rights, while Capsule Corporation Tokyo now oversees anime and gaming projects.

Toriyama’s passing further complicated things, as the final decision may now rest with his family. The conflict remains unresolved, and for now, both Shueisha and Capsule Corporation Tokyo continue to assert authority over the franchise.

Source

[dbs fanboy]

This will get more traffic here, so I'll post it here, but Dan Mora—the hottest artist at DC Comics right now—drew some Super Saiyan 4 Gokuu fan art.

I like the current trend of DC artists being Dragon Ball fans, the New My Adventures with Superman show is definitely inspired by Dragon Ball too (canon Goku vs Superman when)

[JulieYBM]

This will get more traffic here, so I'll post it here, but Dan Mora—the hottest artist at DC Comics right now—drew some Super Saiyan 4 Gokuu fan art.

https://i.imgur.com/exjOycE.jpeg

I like the current trend of DC artists being Dragon Ball fans, the New My Adventures with Superman show is definitely inspired by Dragon Ball too (canon Goku vs Superman when)

It makes a lot of sense that Dragon Ball now inspires a lot of the 30-50 year olds who create US comics and animation now. So many people grew up on the early 2000s ear of Toonami, it's no surprise that they're now putting some of that into whatever they create.

A fight would definitely be fun to see unfold, more so if it wasn't done so corporately-driven and let the characters have an actual conflict.

[dbs fanboy]

This will get more traffic here, so I'll post it here, but Dan Mora—the hottest artist at DC Comics right now—drew some Super Saiyan 4 Gokuu fan art.

https://i.imgur.com/exjOycE.jpeg

I like the current trend of DC artists being Dragon Ball fans, the New My Adventures with Superman show is definitely inspired by Dragon Ball too (canon Goku vs Superman when)

It makes a lot of sense that Dragon Ball now inspires a lot of the 30-50 year olds who create US comics and animation now. So many people grew up on the early 2000s ear of Toonami, it's no surprise that they're now putting some of that into whatever they create.

A fight would definitely be fun to see unfold, more so if it wasn't done so corporately-driven and let the characters have an actual conflict.

Especially since there's no way they wouldn't clash, we've already seen what db super Heroes (the Pride Troopers) think about someone like Goku, actual heroes from DC would definitely have an issue, enough to have actually something interesting to write about.

But, nah taking a look at past crossovers it would just be a "the fight a common enemy and then are the best of friends", deal.

[JulieYBM]

I hope that Gomah and Degesu return and do something. I want to know what makes them tick!

I like the current trend of DC artists being Dragon Ball fans, the New My Adventures with Superman show is definitely inspired by Dragon Ball too (canon Goku vs Superman when)

It makes a lot of sense that Dragon Ball now inspires a lot of the 30-50 year olds who create US comics and animation now. So many people grew up on the early 2000s ear of Toonami, it's no surprise that they're now putting some of that into whatever they create.

A fight would definitely be fun to see unfold, more so if it wasn't done so corporately-driven and let the characters have an actual conflict.

Especially since there's no way they wouldn't clash, we've already seen what db super Heroes (the Pride Troopers) think about someone like Goku, actual heroes from DC would definitely have an issue, enough to have actually something interesting to write about.

But, nah taking a look at past crossovers it would just be a "the fight a common enemy and then are the best of friends", deal.

Yeah, the sort of toothlessness with which a lot of crossovers are written is really annoying. Use the opportunity to have these characters interact and change and grow from one another! Don't do the, "We need to make each side look equally good and not harm their image" bullshit, give me characters taking shit away from their interactions from that crossover meeting and conflict.

If Gokuu has to keep being the 'poison' type of character, let that lead to a conflict.

Gah, commercial art is such a pain lol

[VegettoEX]

Please remember to keep these discussion threads strictly about the episode in question. Thank you!

[TKA]

Maybe the fusion bugs were just a red herring for people to think fusion would have been the answer, but instead it was SS4. Or maybe Toriyama wanted to introduce the concept to use it in a future story.

It would be very funny if a later story arc in the Super manga just has goku rummage through his pants and pull out the bugs to initiate a fusion.

[LightBing]

Surprisingly a good episode since my expectations were so low.

The fighting section didn't add nothing. I didn't care about the fight since the beginning, it was just extending a empty confrontation.

Everything changed when Kuu saved the day. He unexpectedly became King, a good one. Uniting all the Demon Realm from the injustices the show presented to us. It managed to wrap up some of the storylines with decent to mild results.

Glad they didn't bring fusion into it. The post-credits is also stellar.

The writers need a bit of shame, re-using the bargain sale line is embarrassing.

Daima ended up fine. It could have been so much more. It set up nicely a continuation but I doubt we'll ever get one.

[MisteryOne]

If Super Saiyan 4 is just something Goku trained to get, and it's actually really just powering up past Super Saiyan 3, then its design is really out of place. Not a single one of its design cues build off of 3. Does it have any of 3's drawbacks? What was even the point of Neva doing anything? "To give Goku access to it as a kid". Okay, why did we need to see Goku use it as a kid? Easily could have just had the wish happen after Goku's Super Saiyan 3 was defeated. Really strange pacing and sequence of events in that climax.

I can't agree enough with this. I always had issues with SS4's design in GT, but you could kind of handwave them as "it isn't tecnically the follow up to SS3 but its own thing". In Daima, it pretty much is. Which makes it even more disappointing how poorly it is introduced since it comes out of nowhere, or why it has Oozaru features at all, nostalgia aside. Or why it is completely in shades of red/magenta with no golden at all despite keeping the same aura (when it isn't weirdly white outlined that is). It's also extremely boring. Even ignoring the unique mechanics the original SS4 had, UI and UE also are pretty special instead of just...well, SS but stronger. So now that we are getting a literal SS4, it doesn't even have the drawbacks SS3, or at least they are not big enough to even matter in a two episode fight. I woukd evwn argue Blue of all forms is mlre interesting, soecially in the manga.

It also hurted the pacing a lot that Gomah makes Goku "devolve" to base just so we can have another big power up moment with Goku going trough all the forms as an adult...in the very next episode. I really don't understand what happened in the later episodes, they felt like a mess and really lost my engagment when it became clear that no matter what the cast did, Gomah would just power up even more and deal with them. They gang on him? He power ups and defeats then, forcing Goku to use SS3. Ss3 Goku is putring out a fight? Nah, Gomah powers up again and defeats him. Goku unlocks SS4 and stands up to him? Nah, he is a giant now and has reverted Goku to base. They are adults again, and SS3 Vegeta alone is damaging Gomah? Nah, he powers up again and defeats him. SS4 Goku as an adult is fighting him? He is out of breath and only st the end manages to pierce him with a Kame-nevermind he regenerated.

Out of all those instances only him becoming giant gives some kind of extremely superficial DB-esque sense of progression. In all others he constantly feels pain but the Eye just buffs him more and more. I can't believe I'm going to say this- but even Anime Jiren managed to work better, because while they are the same on principle (no matter what the heroes throw at the enemy, he comes at top) Jiren seemed genuinely unfazed by most of it, which meant that him finally having to fight back and actually try was more satisfying. Gomah however was clearly in pain from multiple attacks, so it was hard to even gauge what was supposed to be working or not. The end of the fight didn't even manage to sell me on the idea of hopeless feeling the characters should have after he regenerates, again probably because of pacing issues.

Gomah has plenty of issues as the final antagonist by himself but I was genuinely less bothered by that than what I mention here.