Toyotaro Is Not the Right Successor. To Me, Dragon Ball Ends with Daima

[BernardoCairo]

It's incredibly disheartening frequently seeing people in this fandom immediately belittle and throw other creatives under the bus.

Hardcore fans naturally prefer Toriyama's original manga for many different reasons. But it's not hard to find people online who even like the poor DBZ movies from the 90s.
I don't think what you're saying is the rule.

[BernardoCairo]

Why is it to be expected? Why can someone not create a better story than Toriyama Akira?

I'm not saying no one can. But he is the original author and wrote these characters in the context of his time. It might be difficult to replicate that, especially in the case of Toyotaro (who was a fledgling artist compared to Toriyama when he started in 2015).

[JulieYBM]

It's incredibly disheartening frequently seeing people in this fandom immediately belittle and throw other creatives under the bus.

Hardcore fans naturally prefer Toriyama's original manga for many different reasons.

Assigning a degree to which one is a fan based on whether or not they 'prefer' Toriyama's original comic is pretty unnecessary. We don't see do go about assigning arbitrary hierarchies for the rest of the fandom.

[BernardoCairo]

Assigning a degree to which one is a fan based on whether or not they 'prefer' Toriyama's original comic is pretty unnecessary. We don't see do go about assigning arbitrary hierarchies for the rest of the fandom.

Obviously, I wasn't speaking for everyone when I said that. My whole point is that different people like different things, and I don't believe the fanbase is as "Toriyama-centric" as some suggest.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

It's not hard to find people online who like the poor DBZ movies from the 90s.

[tonysoprano300]

To be fair, the heart of dragon ball has been lost for a minute. Even Toriyama’s modern creations just don’t really have it aside from maybe the first half of Daima and BOG. Arguably the worst DB property(ROF) came from Toriyama.

Part of this is a question of how much studio involvement is dictating creative decisions, even with Toyo its hard to know much of the stuff he writes are actually his ideas or storylines. It just seems like many of the works produced are keen on upholding only what’s familiar and nostalgic, and the series desperately needs to sever itself from those tendencies. DB has always been a manga that never gave a fuck about any of that, every arc was a brand new adventure. The status quo in the saiyan arc is different in almost every way to the status quo in the Boo saga. If we can’t even entertain a conversation about moving past EOZ then yea DB is likely at its natural end.

I mean of course they will still be making it though, there will always be a demand for DB even if its bad. So maybe its sort of a moot point.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Even Toriyama’s modern creations just don’t really have it aside from maybe the first half of Daima and BOG.

These are the two projects Toriyama volunteered to get involved with, unlike everything between them where he was asked to, and according to his editors recently, he wasn't too keen on it.

If we can’t even entertain a conversation about moving past EOZ then yea DB is likely at its natural end.

We should've moved past the end of Z starting with Resurrection F.

[Skar]

I enjoyed the Super manga but I don't think there's any intention to have a successor to Toriyama. He was working alongside Toriyama since 2015 so continuing on his own for years could be something he's against. I feel the next arc might be the last to tie up any loose ends and connect to EoZ then Toyotaro retires the manga after that. The only loose end is Freeza but there's the argument that he's more of a rival now since he spared Goku and Vegeta. The SH arc took place a few years later and Freeza mostly kept himself so I think he could still be alive by EoZ without any issues. The last chapter served as a good enough ending if Toyotaro decides to leave it there.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I enjoyed the Super manga but I don't think there's any intention to have a successor to Toriyama.

Iyoko confirmed that there's no plans to stop Dragon Ball, so they'll have to have someone overseeing its stories.

[Saiya6Cit]

Toyotaro is fine.
But dragon ball super as a whole was not. Maybe for a time many fans accepted it because they were nostalgic and/or they simply wanted more dragon ball and that was the only one we were getting but now that Daima is out, that's over.

The title of successor was already given. I can have my own judgement on the person but it would be out of place if I were to share that here. Creating fan mangas is not easy. DB fandom is not easy and I am sure he did not have complete artistic freedom in the project, no one does, even independant artists like me get censorship among other things...

There are still artists trying to make it out there and I guess DB copyrignt is a little "relaxed" right now?

[Skar]

Iyoko confirmed that there's no plans to stop Dragon Ball, so they'll have to have someone overseeing its stories.

That's true but we don't know how much he's actually planning. I think it'll be like other legacy franchises and a short animated project every several years or major anniversary but probably never as much content as the first few years of the revival involving Toriyama.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't really understand the sentiment here because transformations in DB were explained or foreshadowed, outside SSJ3, which also had a valid explanation if you somewhat take filler into consideration and realize Goku received very special training in the Other World. SSJ4 in Daima is just a nonsensical asspull, since Goku only had a few months to train on Earth by himself. Hell, SSJ3 Vegeta is too. And how about SSJ Rage Trunks? Wtf was that? We're supposed to LIKE this because Toriyama made it?

We should have some explanation. Or better, training sequences, which is part of what made DB(Z) so good. It's one of the things I like about Toyotaro. He at least tries to make sense of all this nonsense that the anime just completely disregarded, even having Android 17 train with Cell Jrs to try to justify his random af strength increase.

That said, I don't see any one person being Toriyama's successor. We're gonna have a ton of hit or miss content going forward, but that would have been the case even if Toriyama was alive.

[Skar]

I don't really understand the sentiment here because transformations in DB were explained or foreshadowed, outside SSJ3, which also had a valid explanation if you somewhat take filler into consideration and realize Goku received very special training in the Other World. SSJ4 in Daima is just a nonsensical asspull, since Goku only had a few months to train on Earth by himself. Hell, SSJ3 Vegeta is too. And how about SSJ Rage Trunks? Wtf was that? We're supposed to LIKE this because Toriyama made it?

I think SSJ Rage was Toei's idea. Most of the forms Toriyama came up with had an explanation and I think he had a simpler approach to powerups since he didn't have as many as the manga or anime. SSJG was unlocked with the ritual or also through learning how to use God ki from Whis, Blue was combining SSJG with SSJ, and UI was the final lesson that Whis was teaching. Manga and anime varied in how UI was achieved so I guess Toriyama didn't specify in his outline and just the general idea of how the form works.

Orange was unlocking Piccolo's potential. I'm not sure if that was meant to be a god form for Nameks or he happened to have far more potential than Goku and Vegeta in regular ki. Freeza and Broly were "mutants" to explain how they can get that powerful without god ki but I don't know if that was meant to apply to Piccolo as well. Beast Gohan is pretty similar to SSJ Rage though since it's a half Saiyan exclusive form achieved by being angrier than they've ever been before. We found out Gohan originally didn't have a major role so maybe that was a last minute addition and all Toriyama could come up with.

[Majin Buu]

Orange was unlocking Piccolo's potential. I'm not sure if that was meant to be a god form for Nameks or he happened to have far more potential than Goku and Vegeta in regular ki.

Shenlong said he unlocked all of Piccolo's potential and gave him "a little bit extra" as well.

Based on that, I think the yellowish form he assumed is him with all his potential unlocked while Orange was extra power on top of that given to him as a favor (since this Piccolo is also Kami, who was Shenlong's original creator).

Piccolo notes that he still couldn't keep up with Gamma 2 even with all of his potential unlocked, which would track with his strength from the Buu arc till now.

He was subsequently surprised when the Orange form activated and identified it as the "little bit extra" Shenlong gave him. Now whether it's some Namekian god form that "little bit extra" unlocked or just what Piccolo looks like when he's being juiced up by a god dragon is a different question.

[Koitsukai]

Yesterday, I sat down and read the That Time I Reincarnated as Yamcha manga. And I loved it, the humor, the art.

Toyo is ok, I guess, I do like his artstyle, but his stortytelling leaves somewhat to be desired. I think after DBS wraps up, he should not continue and the franchise should do something else, movies, spinoffs, videogames, animating the manga exclusive arcs. That'd be the best for the franchise and for his career as well, I doubt he wants to draw somebody else's story for the rest of his life.

To me, DB doesn't end with Daima, DBS or GT. If anything, it ended in 1995, with a few reunions in outter space, in the multiverse and in the demon realm that introduce people, situations, and transformations that weren't needed or thought of back in the day to tell the story of these characters.

[Basaku]

To be fair, the heart of dragon ball has been lost for a minute. Even Toriyama’s modern creations just don’t really have it aside from maybe the first half of Daima and BOG. Arguably the worst DB property(ROF) came from Toriyama.

Part of this is a question of how much studio involvement is dictating creative decisions, even with Toyo its hard to know much of the stuff he writes are actually his ideas or storylines. It just seems like many of the works produced are keen on upholding only what’s familiar and nostalgic, and the series desperately needs to sever itself from those tendencies. DB has always been a manga that never gave a fuck about any of that, every arc was a brand new adventure. The status quo in the saiyan arc is different in almost every way to the status quo in the Boo saga. If we can’t even entertain a conversation about moving past EOZ then yea DB is likely at its natural end.

I mean of course they will still be making it though, there will always be a demand for DB even if its bad. So maybe its sort of a moot point.

The problem is that no one, including Toriyama, wanted to actually do next gen takeover/show. Well - video game devs sorta did that with Xeno Trunks, but everyone at the anime/manga front seems way too scared. Toyo dipped his toes with Goten & Trunks mini arc but these are basically equivalent to anime filler eps, obviously not actual lead action material yet. I mean I get it, but if a billion dollar franchise can't try new stuff like that than what can?

Next gen is the clear narrative direction of this franchise ever since Cell arc with Gohan & Trunks and Goku's character developement transitioning into a mentor role for next gen, who realizes he won't be the strongest forever or alive forever. Then, despite Toriyama making a u-turn on Gohan as lead, he still repeated the same exact transition theme in Buu arc with Goten, Trunks and Uub being seen by Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta as the hope for the future and Goku once again realizing "so many bad guys out there, kids are the future and will have to protect Earth in my place soon". Now - of course Daima and Super ignored that and regressed Goku and Vegeta into flanderized versions of themselves who train 24/7 just for their own gratification, but that's besides the point at this stage (can't turn back time) and especially as thing will inevitably have to come back to EOZ once again - and the same theme of transition for the 3rd time.

So yeah, what should be done is obvious, but everyone's scared. So either they'll grow a pair and do it or we'll get more pointless Goku Time like GT with regressed and ignored themes Toriyama wrote HIMSELF twice (or thrice). Or a Goku reboot.

[Zinnia]

So yeah, what should be done is obvious, but everyone's scared. So either they'll grow a pair and do it or we'll get more pointless Goku Time like GT with regressed and ignored themes Toriyama wrote HIMSELF twice (or thrice).

Can this meme die already? There was never any Goku Time in GT. Merely this fandom's dumb remarks to avoid writing actual criticism. If anything Daima was far more of a Goku Time, with everything that Vegeta did could have been done by Goku himself too who was holding back his SSJ4 form for the entire show. And the rest of characters like Panzy, Bulma, and especially Piccolo didn't matter to the narrative in the slightest, only Neva did.

Goku in GT had to be bailed out by Pan (against Lord Luud), Kaioshin, Uub, Piccolo (or he'd explode with the Earth), Android 18 and Vegeta and then the entire Universe. I should take notes nad list how many times Goku in GT wouldn't be able to settle the conflict alone.

This Goku Time nonsense is a terrible complaint.

[Basaku]

So yeah, what should be done is obvious, but everyone's scared. So either they'll grow a pair and do it or we'll get more pointless Goku Time like GT with regressed and ignored themes Toriyama wrote HIMSELF twice (or thrice).

Can this meme die already? There was never any Goku Time in GT. Merely this fandom's dumb remarks to avoid writing actual criticism. If anything Daima was far more of a Goku Time, with everything that Vegeta did could have been done by Goku himself too who was holding back his SSJ4 form for the entire show. And the rest of characters like Panzy, Bulma, and especially Piccolo didn't matter to the narrative in the slightest, only Neva did.

Goku in GT had to be bailed out by Pan (against Lord Luud), Kaioshin, Uub, Piccolo (or he'd explode with the Earth), Android 18 and Vegeta and then the entire Universe. I should take notes nad list how many times Goku in GT wouldn't be able to settle the conflict alone.

This Goku Time nonsense is a terrible complaint.

It's not when he still dominates the screentime as he did in GT. That also counts for Goku Time even if the actual narrative has other characters being useful more than in Daima. Or Super.

By Z, the story was pretty much in actual ensemble cast mode with Goku being ABSENT from screen and actual relevant plot happening for large chunks of chapters/episodes. Daima, Super and GT insert him into literally any scene possible, regardless if there's even a point to him being there or not and that to me is also 100% a Goku Time symptom, not just other characters doing some relevant stuff or not (more in GT, less in Super and Daima)

[AliTheZombie13]

I never really understood the "GT is Goku Time" complaints either. Contrary to what many will say here, the entire franchise was already like that, and the rare moments when it wasn't was when it made Goku temporarily incapacitated so everyone else could have screen time dedicated to showing how much they're unprepared for the upcoming threat and desperately need Goku to bail them out.

Arguing that, "Well, at least the story was focusing on someone else" is like... Okay... But does it really count when the story is focusing on how much they're completely helpless without Goku around? Doesn't that make the characters look even worse? Practically, the only times that I can remember when everybody felt equally useful was in the very first arc, and at the tail end of the Saiyan arc.

[miguelnuva1]

To me Dragonball when end when it ends. It will have some stories I think are good and some I think are bad. I accept nothing will probably reach Z and before levels but that's ok.

I also don't think Toriyama while he wrote the best Dragonball stoires is the only one that can make good Dragonball stories.