Toyotaro Is Not the Right Successor. To Me, Dragon Ball Ends with Daima

[fadeddreams5]

I never really understood the "GT is Goku Time" complaints either. Contrary to what many will say here, the entire franchise was already like that, and the rare moments when it wasn't was when it made Goku temporarily incapacitated so everyone else could have screen time dedicated to showing how much they're unprepared for the upcoming threat and desperately need Goku to bail them out.

Arguing that, "Well, at least the story was focusing on someone else" is like... Okay... But does it really count when the story is focusing on how much they're completely helpless without Goku around? Doesn't that make the characters look even worse? Practically, the only times that I can remember when everybody was equally useful was in the very first arc, and at the tail end of the Saiyan arc.

The reason is because most grew up watching exclusively DBZ. Goku is out of commission in every single arc there. Dead in the Saiyan arc, training in space or healing in Namek, bedridden in the Cell one, and dead again in the Buu saga. Lol. And other characters are very useful in every arc.

Suddenly, in GT, it's Goku all the time. Additionally, he is unbelievably OP compared to every other character. Even Vegeta and Gohan are jobbers. In his base kid form, he can handle SSJ Goten and SSJ Gohan at the same time. And while nobody can make Super 17 budge at all, including Majuub, SSJ Kid Goku can. Lol

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I never really understood the "GT is Goku Time" complaints either. Contrary to what many will say here, the entire franchise was already like that.

Dragon Ball at its core was and always will be the story of Goku. The problem people have with GT (including its defenders like myself) was the fact that no one besides Goku was allowed to shine, not even once. DB & Z always gave the secondary characters memorable moments and battles, something GT refused to do as a result of its producers admitting they believed only Goku was liked by the fans.

[Basaku]

Arguing that, "Well, at least the story was focusing on someone else" is like... Okay... But does it really count when the story is focusing on how much they're completely helpless without Goku around? Doesn't that make the characters look even worse? Practically, the only times that I can remember when everybody felt equally useful was in the very first arc, and at the tail end of the Saiyan arc.

It does, cause when Z did that we had near-defensless (by that time) Kuririn literally changing the course of the plot due to his actions. And that was only possible by devoting and establishing some screentime to him and 18 and their lovu lovu. Same with cat & mouse game for the DBs on Namek between Vegeta, Freeza and Gohan/Kuririn/Dende team. Along with changing alliances among those, ans twists and turns. Future Trunks relies a ton on having screentime/page-count devoted to him, this is how his story resonated so much as did his relationship with Gohan. Piccolo and Gohan relationship too.

Sure, you can have Old Kai come up with SSJ4 plot device, but it's a convinient asspull. 5 secs and his role is done and required no relationship built OR simply used what happened in Z already.

The only one that's different here is Pan & Goku relationship and how that plays into calming down Goku in Golden Ape form. That was one big relevant moment and on-screen relationship that was somehow developed almost entirely in GT and changed the course of the plot. Other stuff relies on what previous series did and there's no time to develop more, add more new characters and their relations outside of Goku 'cause Goku dominates the screentime.

[MasenkoHA]

I've always found the "series bad because main character is....getting the benefits of being the main character" argument to be really weak. I sort of understand watching Dragon Ball Z in isolation one might think it's supposed to be an ensemble show but, the thing isz it's not. So I'm not gonna lose sleep over the Z warriors getting their asses handed to them by Nappa until Goku arrives. Or Vegeta getting knocked around by Freeza for Goku to fight him.

Like if you thought the Saiyans were going to be defeated by the Z warriors before Goku showed up or that Vegeta, the lesser of two evils during the Namek arc was going to be the one to become Super Saiyan and kill Freeza, idk what to tell you.

[The Monkey King]

I've always found the "series bad because main character is....getting the benefits of being the main character" argument to be really weak.

Well yeah, when you make a strawman argument... the strawman tends to be weak.

The problem people have with GT (including its defenders like myself) was the fact that no one besides Goku was allowed to shine, not even once.

Nail on the head. Absolutely agree, that's one of the major problems with GT, I don't know why so many posters want to now act obtuse when people point out that very obvious flaw.

In the original manga even when other characters were holding out for Goku at least they got their moments in the sun. Krillin almost killed Nappa with the Kienzan, Gohan could get some solid hits on him, Piccolo's sacrifice meant something. Then there's everyone all fighting to the bitter end against Vegeta, Yajirobe cutting his tail, Gohan fighting Vegeta, Krillin getting the spirit bomb, Gohan deflecting it to Vegeta, Ozaru Gohan ultimately crushing Vegeta and being the straw that broke the camel's back.

On Namek while waiting for Goku to arrive, there's Gohan and Krillin's run ins with Freeza soldiers, saving Dende, Vegeta's rampage among Freeza's forces, Vegeta vs Recoome is still one of the best fights of the franchise. There's all the fights the Z-fighters had with Freeza before Goku arrives, Gohan's rage boosts, Krillin actually managing to cut off his tail.

The Android saga, Trunks kills Mecha Freeza, Piccolo fuses with Kami, Super Vegeta, Tien's Shin Kikoho, Goku dies, Cell kills Gohan, Trunks saves his Future. Then the Buu saga where Gohan was actually the main character for a while, you have fusion creating Gotenks who almost kills Buu, Ultimate Gohan, the conclusion of Vegeta's character arc, Mr Satan reforming Buu, everyone pitching in for the Spirit Bomb finish that wouldn't had been possible without the help of Mr Satan, the manga even acknowledges that Gohan or Gotenks are stronger than Goku and could've killed Kid Buu anyway.

Then there are the DBZ specials featuring Trunks and Bardock as protagonists, with Goku not even being a supporting character. Still held as some of the best and emotional Dragon Ball stories ever told. Meanwhile In the GT special the main character is called GOKU JR for God's sake and a century old dead Goku still makes a cameo.

There's no way in hell you can compare that to all the Z-fighters not even being able to land a single hit on Super 17, then Goku comes and punches him to the other side of the fucking planet.

During the Baby arc, a storyline all about the Saiyan's sins of the past you'd think Vegeta would feature heavily... but NO! He gets his body stolen and is essentially gone from the story for most of the arc. Instead it's up to Goku to save the day because his protege Uub amounted to absolutely nothing and somehow got himself eaten by Baby. Uub's highlight? Giving Baby a stomach ache.

Piccolo's death is mind numbingly stupid and contrived, in the Shadow Dragon arc there's enough antagonists for the Z-fighters to all pitch in but they don't because Goku and Pan have to fight them all for some dumb reason, we don't get Adult Gotenks, Gohan is a pathetic jobber, no new transformations for anyone except Goku, Oh yeah but there's SSJ4 Vegeta! Who only exists to be half of a fusion that hardly accomplished anything.

Then all of a sudden an exhausted base Goku can tank all of Omega Shenron's attacks and finishes him off with a Spirit Bomb before being whisked away to become a Dragon Ball deity or whatever the hell happened to him.

GT well and truly earned the moniker of "Goku Time"

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I've always found the "series bad because main character is....getting the benefits of being the main character" argument to be really weak.

Well yeah, when you make a strawman argument... the strawman tends to be weak.

The problem people have with GT (including its defenders like myself) was the fact that no one besides Goku was allowed to shine, not even once.

Spoiler:

Nail on the head. Absolutely agree, that's one of the major problems with GT, I don't know why so many posters want to now act obtuse when people point out that very obvious flaw.

In the original manga even when other characters were holding out for Goku at least they got their moments in the sun. Krillin almost killed Nappa with the Kienzan, Gohan could get some solid hits on him, Piccolo's sacrifice meant something. Then there's everyone all fighting to the bitter end against Vegeta, Yajirobe cutting his tail, Gohan fighting Vegeta, Krillin getting the spirit bomb, Gohan deflecting it to Vegeta, Ozaru Gohan ultimately crushing Vegeta and being the straw that broke the camel's back.

On Namek while waiting for Goku to arrive, there's Gohan and Krillin's run ins with Freeza soldiers, saving Dende, Vegeta's rampage among Freeza's forces, Vegeta vs Recoome is still one of the best fights of the franchise. There's all the fights the Z-fighters had with Freeza before Goku arrives, Gohan's rage boosts, Krillin actually managing to cut off his tail.

The Android saga, Trunks kills Mecha Freeza, Piccolo fuses with Kami, Super Vegeta, Tien's Shin Kikoho, Goku dies, Cell kills Gohan, Trunks saves his Future. Then the Buu saga where Gohan was actually the main character for a while, you have fusion creating Gotenks who almost kills Buu, Ultimate Gohan, the conclusion of Vegeta's character arc, Mr Satan reforming Buu, everyone pitching in for the Spirit Bomb finish

Then there are the DBZ specials featuring Trunks and Bardock as protagonists, with Goku not even being a supporting character. Still held as some of the best and emotional Dragon Ball stories ever told. Meanwhile In the GT special the main character is called GOKU JR for God's sake and a century old dead Goku still makes a cameo.

There's no way in hell you can compare that to all the Z-fighters not even being able to land a single hit on Super 17, then Goku comes and punches him to the other side of the fucking planet.

Goku's protege Uub amounting to absolutely nothing, Piccolo's death is mind numbingly stupid and contrived, in the Shadow Dragon arc there's enough antagonists for the Z-fighters to all pitch in but they don't because Goku and Pan have to fight them all for some dumb reason, we don't get Adult Gotenks, Gohan is a pathetic jobber, no new transformations for anyone except Goku, Oh yeah but there's SSJ4 Vegeta! Who only exists to be half of a fusion that hardly accomplished anything.

GT well and truly earned the moniker of "Goku Time"

Even the original DB, which was more Goku focused than Z, had plenty of moments where the other characters were allowed to shine. Master Roshi, Tien, Bulma, and Krillin all got multiple moments to impress the audience. Even Ooolong was given a moment. GT just refused to take the camera off Goku for a second; everything in that show had to be about him.

[obiwan23s]

To me it was nice to see DB come back with a new series in Super. Yeah we had Kai before that to kind of experience DBZ all over again in a new kind of way, but Super introduced new characters, new universes and new transformations. I could take or leave Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue, but no one can deny that Ultra Instinct was pretty sweet and it definitely broke the internet when it happened in the anime.

But I have to agree there is no DB without Toriyama. The only loose end is Black Freeza. I wouldn't mind seeing that story concluded, but if I'm being honest the only DB product I'm really even hungry for is a reboot of the anime with modern animation similar to the intro scenes of Super Hero or Daima.

[Skar]

Instead it's up to Goku to save the day because his protege Uub amounted to absolutely nothing and somehow got himself eaten by Baby. Uub's highlight? Giving Baby a stomach ache.

I always thought this part was unintentionally funny. I could understand the argument that most of the cast was retired by Buu saga and then EoZ but you would assume Goku's new student would play a bigger role in the sequel. It's like Uub's only purpose was to get trained by Goku and give him a good rematch. I think that's what happened to him in Online since I don't recall if he was ever brought up in the timeline. A few other characters had minor roles like opening up a martial arts school or defending Earth against remnants of Freeza's army after Satan passed away but I think Uub just disappeared back to his village never to be seen or heard from again.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Iyoko (or someone official) revealed awhile back that they are aware about what fans are talking about and what they expect, so surely they know that many fans consider Dragon Ball over now that Toriyama has passed. At least that's the opinion of English speaking fans, but what about the Japanese ? Does anyone who follows Japanese fan sites know what their opinion is regarding the franchise now that Toriyama is gone ? It's going to be very interesting to see how the first project without Toriyama's involvement is received by fans, both critically and financially.

[AliTheZombie13]

I've always found the "series bad because main character is....getting the benefits of being the main character" argument to be really weak. I sort of understand watching Dragon Ball Z in isolation one might think it's supposed to be an ensemble show but, the thing isz it's not. So I'm not gonna lose sleep over the Z warriors getting their asses handed to them by Nappa until Goku arrives. Or Vegeta getting knocked around by Freeza for Goku to fight him.

Like if you thought the Saiyans were going to be defeated by the Z warriors before Goku showed up or that Vegeta, the lesser of two evils during the Namek arc was going to be the one to become Super Saiyan and kill Freeza, idk what to tell you.

Absolutely nobody ever said Z was bad because Goku was Goku Time'ing the villains.
But I did express the bold part of your comment right there.

For clarity sake, I don't particularly think any installment of Dragon Ball has good cast management. Doesn't stop me from liking or disliking an arc, though. There are far worse issues.

[miguelnuva1]

Iyoko (or someone official) revealed awhile back that they are aware about what fans are talking about and what they expect, so surely they know that many fans consider Dragon Ball over now that Toriyama has passed. At least that's the opinion of English speaking fans, but what about the Japanese ? Does anyone who follows Japanese fan sites know what their opinion is regarding the franchise now that Toriyama is gone ? It's going to be very interesting to see how the first project without Toriyama's involvement is received by fans, both critically and financially.

The fans that consider Dragonball over with Toriyama gone are in the minority.

The majority are sad Toriyama is gone but are still curious to see what is next.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The majority are sad Toriyama is gone but are still curious to see what is next.

I agree that everyone's curious, I just don't know how many will accept it. Z's old movies and GT, which had little to no involvement from Toriyama, were very mediocre, and that's putting it nicely. With the exception of Battle of Gods and Daima, modern DB has been an underwhelming mess, and that's with Toriyama there to guide it. Outside the original manga and its two anime adaptions (DB & Z), this franchise has struggled hard to put out good products, so I'm not exactly optimistic about its future.

[Skar]

Iyoko (or someone official) revealed awhile back that they are aware about what fans are talking about and what they expect, so surely they know that many fans consider Dragon Ball over now that Toriyama has passed. At least that's the opinion of English speaking fans, but what about the Japanese ? Does anyone who follows Japanese fan sites know what their opinion is regarding the franchise now that Toriyama is gone ? It's going to be very interesting to see how the first project without Toriyama's involvement is received by fans, both critically and financially.

There was an interview with GT staff about fan reception without Toriyama being involved. I recall Toyotaro saying something similar about being cautious making changes and only the original author could do or at least more acceptable if they do it. I assume anything moving forward would be less successful. It's not like they'll flop but I would surprised if any Toei original movie grosses as much as BoG.

I think it's a difference between Japan and Hollywood where there's more value in the original author being involved and not just the franchise itself with the studio working alone. The Oda scripted OP movies were longer and more successful than the older Toei original movies. There was also a huge drop in sales between Naruto and first volume of Boruto. It was a direct sequel but I guess because he was no longer drawing it then it was seen as more of a spinoff? There might be some other examples that I can't think of.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

There was an interview with GT staff about fan reception without Toriyama being involved. I recall Toyotaro saying something similar about being cautious making changes and only the original author could do or at least more acceptable if they do it.

Here's a quote from Toriyama which mentions something similar:

"Things like getting involved with the world of a God of Destruction, Vegeta’s breakdown, and Goku not being victorious were all episodes that would be very difficult to touch upon if it weren’t the creator doing it."

With these comments in mind, I wonder if we might go back to the type of stories we got in Z's old movies of generic bad guy shows up, fights Goku, the end.

I think it's a difference between Japan and Hollywood where there's more value in the original author being involved and not just the franchise itself with the studio working alone.

Exactly. I've read that Japanese fans pretty much consider anything not handled by the original author as inauthentic.

[JulieYBM]

Iyoko (or someone official) revealed awhile back that they are aware about what fans are talking about and what they expect, so surely they know that many fans consider Dragon Ball over now that Toriyama has passed. At least that's the opinion of English speaking fans, but what about the Japanese ? Does anyone who follows Japanese fan sites know what their opinion is regarding the franchise now that Toriyama is gone ? It's going to be very interesting to see how the first project without Toriyama's involvement is received by fans, both critically and financially.

There was an interview with GT staff about fan reception without Toriyama being involved. I recall Toyotaro saying something similar about being cautious making changes and only the original author could do or at least more acceptable if they do it. I assume anything moving forward would be less successful. It's not like they'll flop but I would surprised if any Toei original movie grosses as much as BoG.

I think it's a difference between Japan and Hollywood where there's more value in the original author being involved and not just the franchise itself with the studio working alone. The Oda scripted OP movies were longer and more successful than the older Toei original movies. There was also a huge drop in sales between Naruto and first volume of Boruto. It was a direct sequel but I guess because he was no longer drawing it then it was seen as more of a spinoff? There might be some other examples that I can't think of.

Oda doesn't script the One Piece movies, he's just involved with the character designs and the general story details.

The original creator of anime based on manga have a large amount of legal control over how their work is handled. In the past, it was tradition for mangaka to just focus on creating their manga, but because production committees can market off of having direct involvement from the original creator—something that exploded in popularity with One Piece Film: Strong World—the production committees have pushed to focus on that, rather than letting the anime staff do their jobs with less interference.

[Skar]

Oda doesn't script the One Piece movies, he's just involved with the character designs and the general story details.

The original creator of anime based on manga have a large amount of legal control over how their work is handled. In the past, it was tradition for mangaka to just focus on creating their manga, but because production committees can market off of having direct involvement from the original creator—something that exploded in popularity with One Piece Film: Strong World—the production committees have pushed to focus on that, rather than letting the anime staff do their jobs with less interference.

Oh ok that was an interesting read! Are there other examples of series that performed better after the original author became more involved or worst once the studio tried continuing on their own? I remember there were others I read about but I can't think of them right now.

[JulieYBM]

Oda doesn't script the One Piece movies, he's just involved with the character designs and the general story details.

The original creator of anime based on manga have a large amount of legal control over how their work is handled. In the past, it was tradition for mangaka to just focus on creating their manga, but because production committees can market off of having direct involvement from the original creator—something that exploded in popularity with One Piece Film: Strong World—the production committees have pushed to focus on that, rather than letting the anime staff do their jobs with less interference.

Oh ok that was an interesting read! Are there other examples of series that performed better after the original author became more involved or worst once the studio tried continuing on their own? I remember there were others I read about but I can't think of them right now.

I mean, after One Piece Film: Strong World, all of the shounen films based on manga have been copying the same shtick, so I'd say the lack of old-style "let the anime staff do as they please" films basically says it all.

[Skar]

I mean, after One Piece Film: Strong World, all of the shounen films based on manga have been copying the same shtick, so I'd say the lack of old-style "let the anime staff do as they please" films basically says it all.

I think it's reassuring since the studio has to come up with something really good to make up for the original author not being involved and still considered in the same league by fans. The worst thing that could happen is the Hollywood approach of milking the franchise until it flops and then give up.

[miguelnuva1]

The majority are sad Toriyama is gone but are still curious to see what is next.

I agree that everyone's curious, I just don't know how many will accept it. Z's old movies and GT, which had little to no involvement from Toriyama, were very mediocre, and that's putting it nicely. With the exception of Battle of Gods and Daima, modern DB has been an underwhelming mess, and that's with Toriyama there to guide it. Outside the original manga and its two anime adaptions (DB & Z), this franchise has struggled hard to put out good products, so I'm not exactly optimistic about its future.

Broly was the biggest thing for the fandom in a long time.

The FT arc and the TOP all had moments that were good. I'd say the arcs were better more so than worse.

Super Hero I also noticed a lot of positive.

Other than Broly no they weren't as good as the OG 42 volumes but I wouldn't call them bad.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

I've always found the "series bad because main character is....getting the benefits of being the main character" argument to be really weak. I sort of understand watching Dragon Ball Z in isolation one might think it's supposed to be an ensemble show but, the thing isz it's not. So I'm not gonna lose sleep over the Z warriors getting their asses handed to them by Nappa until Goku arrives. Or Vegeta getting knocked around by Freeza for Goku to fight him.

Like if you thought the Saiyans were going to be defeated by the Z warriors before Goku showed up or that Vegeta, the lesser of two evils during the Namek arc was going to be the one to become Super Saiyan and kill Freeza, idk what to tell you.

Why wouldn't a fanbase want other characters to shine or get their moments? When you make a show all about the main character or have the main character (or their relatives) always be the ones to save the day then the entire story arc becomes predictable and played out. You are never left with any surprises and already no the outcome of any fight that involves the main villain vs non-main character.

For example, in Revival of Frieza arc, there was no reason to have Son Goku be the one to beat frieza and they could have let vegeta get his moment and revenge in beat frieza.

Fan would get more enjoyment and enjoyment if a story arc surprises them from time to time by having one of the other characters be the heroes in said arc and save the day. Think about when piccolo was the strongest, many fans have fond moments seeing someone other than goku get to be the hero and strongest in the group.