Toyotaro Is Not the Right Successor. To Me, Dragon Ball Ends with Daima

[Yuji]

For clarity sake, I don't particularly think any installment of Dragon Ball has good cast management. Doesn't stop me from liking or disliking an arc, though. There are far worse issues.

I disagree. Part 2/Z definitely had very good cast management. I can understand being disappointed that the humans are cast aside, but that's exactly it, they're cast aside in favour of new characters, they disappear from the story once they're no longer useful, instead of just lingering around in the sidelines like part 1/GT/Super/Daima.

Dragon Ball, and Z especially, being a revolving door of a constant evolving cast is part of what made it so interesting.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

For clarity sake, I don't particularly think any installment of Dragon Ball has good cast management. Doesn't stop me from liking or disliking an arc, though. There are far worse issues.

I disagree. Part 2/Z definitely had very good cast management. I can understand being disappointed that the humans are cast aside, but that's exactly it, they're cast aside in favour of new characters, they disappear from the story once they're no longer useful, instead of just lingering around in the sidelines like part 1/GT/Super/Daima.

Dragon Ball, and Z especially, being a revolving door of a constant evolving cast is part of what made it so interesting.

They were cast aside and the show basically devolved into the saiyan show. If you weren't a saiyan or piccolo then you were pretty much irrelevant. And then by buu arc piccolo was even cast aside.

[Yuji]

For clarity sake, I don't particularly think any installment of Dragon Ball has good cast management. Doesn't stop me from liking or disliking an arc, though. There are far worse issues.

I disagree. Part 2/Z definitely had very good cast management. I can understand being disappointed that the humans are cast aside, but that's exactly it, they're cast aside in favour of new characters, they disappear from the story once they're no longer useful, instead of just lingering around in the sidelines like part 1/GT/Super/Daima.

Dragon Ball, and Z especially, being a revolving door of a constant evolving cast is part of what made it so interesting.

They were cast aside and the show basically devolved into the saiyan show. If you weren't a saiyan or piccolo then you were pretty much irrelevant. And then by buu arc piccolo was even cast aside.

And what, exactly, is wrong with that? Several characters still get their moments and spotlight. Whether they're humans, Saiyans, Namekians, shouldn't matter if they have interesting character arcs.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

I disagree. Part 2/Z definitely had very good cast management. I can understand being disappointed that the humans are cast aside, but that's exactly it, they're cast aside in favour of new characters, they disappear from the story once they're no longer useful, instead of just lingering around in the sidelines like part 1/GT/Super/Daima.

Dragon Ball, and Z especially, being a revolving door of a constant evolving cast is part of what made it so interesting.

They were cast aside and the show basically devolved into the saiyan show. If you weren't a saiyan or piccolo then you were pretty much irrelevant. And then by buu arc piccolo was even cast aside.

And what, exactly, is wrong with that? Several characters still get their moments and spotlight. Whether they're humans, Saiyans, Namekians, shouldn't matter if they have interesting character arcs.

It becomes boring. It's like having a tv series where you have a rich multi-racial community but the main cast are of one race and everyone else is relegated to background characters.

[Yuji]

They were cast aside and the show basically devolved into the saiyan show. If you weren't a saiyan or piccolo then you were pretty much irrelevant. And then by buu arc piccolo was even cast aside.

And what, exactly, is wrong with that? Several characters still get their moments and spotlight. Whether they're humans, Saiyans, Namekians, shouldn't matter if they have interesting character arcs.

It becomes boring. It's like having a tv series where you have a rich multi-racial community but the main cast are of one race and everyone else is relegated to background characters.

The Saiyans do the fighting and the other characters have their own role. I don't agree that they're necessarily irrelevant just because they don't fight. Kuririn was pretty relevant on Namek, and so were all the humans in the Saiyan arc. Piccolo was a main character for a third of the Boo arc despite his role as a non-combatant.

[MasenkoHA]

I've always found the "series bad because main character is....getting the benefits of being the main character" argument to be really weak. I sort of understand watching Dragon Ball Z in isolation one might think it's supposed to be an ensemble show but, the thing isz it's not. So I'm not gonna lose sleep over the Z warriors getting their asses handed to them by Nappa until Goku arrives. Or Vegeta getting knocked around by Freeza for Goku to fight him.

Like if you thought the Saiyans were going to be defeated by the Z warriors before Goku showed up or that Vegeta, the lesser of two evils during the Namek arc was going to be the one to become Super Saiyan and kill Freeza, idk what to tell you.

Why wouldn't a fanbase want other characters to shine or get their moments? When you make a show all about the main character or have the main character (or their relatives) always be the ones to save the day then the entire story arc becomes predictable and played out. You are never left with any surprises and already no the outcome of any fight that involves the main villain vs non-main character.

For example, in Revival of Frieza arc, there was no reason to have Son Goku be the one to beat frieza and they could have let vegeta get his moment and revenge in beat frieza.

Fan would get more enjoyment and enjoyment if a story arc surprises them from time to time by having one of the other characters be the heroes in said arc and save the day. Think about when piccolo was the strongest, many fans have fond moments seeing someone other than goku get to be the hero and strongest in the group.

.
But the other characters do get to shine, just because Krillin doesn't kienzan Cell in half and save the day or Piccolo didn't kill Freeza doesn't mean they never had moments to shine.

Yeah the show is predictable ...it's for children. I don't see how Goku being the one to (almost) always save the day ia different than literally any other main character doing that.

I was really upset when Sailor Moon stopped the big bad and not Sailor Mercury.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

I've always found the "series bad because main character is....getting the benefits of being the main character" argument to be really weak. I sort of understand watching Dragon Ball Z in isolation one might think it's supposed to be an ensemble show but, the thing isz it's not. So I'm not gonna lose sleep over the Z warriors getting their asses handed to them by Nappa until Goku arrives. Or Vegeta getting knocked around by Freeza for Goku to fight him.

Like if you thought the Saiyans were going to be defeated by the Z warriors before Goku showed up or that Vegeta, the lesser of two evils during the Namek arc was going to be the one to become Super Saiyan and kill Freeza, idk what to tell you.

Why wouldn't a fanbase want other characters to shine or get their moments? When you make a show all about the main character or have the main character (or their relatives) always be the ones to save the day then the entire story arc becomes predictable and played out. You are never left with any surprises and already no the outcome of any fight that involves the main villain vs non-main character.

For example, in Revival of Frieza arc, there was no reason to have Son Goku be the one to beat frieza and they could have let vegeta get his moment and revenge in beat frieza.

Fan would get more enjoyment and enjoyment if a story arc surprises them from time to time by having one of the other characters be the heroes in said arc and save the day. Think about when piccolo was the strongest, many fans have fond moments seeing someone other than goku get to be the hero and strongest in the group.

.
But the other characters do get to shine, just because Krillin doesn't kienzan Cell in half and save the day or Piccolo didn't kill Freeza doesn't mean they never had moments to shine.

Yeah the show is predictable ...it's for children. I don't see how Goku being the one to (almost) always save the day ia different than literally any other main character doing that.

I was really upset when Sailor Moon stopped the big bad and not Sailor Mercury.

Not really. The other characters "shine" is them failing.

Also I said in my original post if you weren't Piccolo or the saiyans for most of the show you were relegated to background character that just cheers goku on in the background or got beat up. Fans of those long, forgotten characters would like to find out more about them, have story episodes that focus on them and develop them. It shouldn't be such a lopsided fest where its just saiyans vs biggest, baddest new alien.

Also the show being just for kids so the main character saves the day is sort of a weak argument. There are other animes in which the main character does not save the day in all story arcs and other characters get their shinning moments. Even having the main villain be defeated by a combine team effort is far better approach than Goku or his son saves the day while everyone just gets beat up.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

And what, exactly, is wrong with that? Several characters still get their moments and spotlight. Whether they're humans, Saiyans, Namekians, shouldn't matter if they have interesting character arcs.

It becomes boring. It's like having a tv series where you have a rich multi-racial community but the main cast are of one race and everyone else is relegated to background characters.

The Saiyans do the fighting and the other characters have their own role. I don't agree that they're necessarily irrelevant just because they don't fight. Kuririn was pretty relevant on Namek, and so were all the humans in the Saiyan arc. Piccolo was a main character for a third of the Boo arc despite his role as a non-combatant.

The other characters role is literally to glaze the saiyans, get beat up and save by them or fail to carry out their mission. When they do get any moments to shine, there is a literal spike in excitement from the fanbase because there is a break in the formula and its not just the Goku show and/or gohan.

This is why moments like Vegeta beating up semi-perfect cell is a memorable moment in fans eyes. This is why moments like Tien holding off Cell is a memorable moment in fans eyes.

Seeing the same formulistic material of Goku being the guy that beats the villains and gets the exclusive transformation gets stale. And your point of Piccolo, he was literally a forgotten foot note in the buu arc with many fans actual upset he was relegated to a background character and made to look cowardly in said arc after having such an amazing showing in the cell arc. This is why fans were hyped and cheered in theaters over his transformation and him finally coming back to form as an actual combatant.

People are tired of saiyan saturation of the series.

[Yuji]

I'm not sure who these "fans" are. Boo arc Piccolo was the best version of the character since the Saiyan arc. Gambling with Super Boo and mentoring Gotenks are fundamental plot beats, not everything is about the fighting ability.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm not sure who these "fans" are. Boo arc Piccolo was the best version of the character since the Saiyan arc. Gambling with Super Boo and mentoring Gotenks are fundamental plot beats, not everything is about the fighting ability.

This. Thank you. Easily irritated babysitter Piccolo was great.

Supporting and bit characters have their place in the story too guys.

[miguelnuva1]

If fans were tired of the saiyans every new super saiyan form wouldn't sell merchandise the way it does.

[coola]

I wouldn't blame Toyotaro for writing, since revival he always had to get OK stamp from Toriyama. With drawing on the other hand..for me, he will always be Dragon Ball AF fanmanga creator, with was perfectly ok, but that was it, fanfiction/doujin level ok.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Boo arc Piccolo was the best version of the character since the Saiyan arc. Gambling with Super Boo and mentoring Gotenks are fundamental plot beats, not everything is about the fighting ability.

I don't know if I'd say he's the best, but Buu arc Piccolo is definitely underrated. He was very much present every step of the way up to being absorbed. He may not have actually fought anyone (besides cutting Babidi in half), but his presence was very much felt throughout the arc.

[Koitsukai]

In every Z arc, the non-saiyans had tons of things to do. Vs Vegeta, without Krilin there would be no victory. On Namek, without Krilin, there is no hope at all.

In the Cell arc, when the saiyans are away, Piccolo takes the lead with Tenshinhan stepping up; Trunks, Gohan and Krilin take care of the investigative part of the arc; Krilin manages to find a way to stop the androids but he was given his own little arc and fails to stop them.
The Buu arc introduces brand new characters, children, taking the spotlight. The MCs are out of comission for a big chunk of the arc. Gohan does his thing, Gotenks does his thing, Mr. Satan, too.

The thing is some people only take into account the fighting and the winning of the fights. If Gohan doesn't beat the bad guy, then he did nothing, he was useless. If Piccolo doesn't kill Buu, he did nothing in that arc. Tenshinhan didn't kill Cell? irrelevant.
But the stories are more than just brawling, not every arc is a Tenkaichi Budokai. Dragonball is more than its conclusion, not Raging Blast 2.

[BernardoCairo]

Dragon Ball at its core was and always will be the story of Goku. The problem people have with GT (including its defenders like myself) was the fact that no one besides Goku was allowed to shine, not even once.

Piccolo is a joke in GT just as much as he is in Daima, if not more. Gohan and Vegeta were also poorly handled in the story and barely did anything, especially Gohan. Vegeta eventually achieved Super Saiyajin 4, but it was clearly just a way to bring Gogeta into the story. Of the four major Dragon Ball Z characters, only Goku had a meaningful role. And this is not just about power-ups, but their actual impact on the story. Even the new characters they set out to develop didn't do much.

The producers thinking fans only cared about Goku shows a bizarre lack of understanding of the franchise. It's a mistake I don't see Toyotaro making right now.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The producers thinking fans only cared about Goku shows a bizarre lack of understanding of the franchise. It's a mistake I don't see Toyotaro making right now.

Toyotaro is not going to have the same power Toriyama did, so whatever we get will have to get approved by the producers. Hopefully they've learned that keeping these characters relevant is crucial for the franchise's success.

[MasenkoHA]

Dragon Ball at its core was and always will be the story of Goku. The problem people have with GT (including its defenders like myself) was the fact that no one besides Goku was allowed to shine, not even once.

Piccolo is a joke in GT just as much as he is in Daima, if not more. Gohan and Vegeta were also poorly handled in the story and barely did anything, especially Gohan. Vegeta eventually achieved Super Saiyajin 4, but it was clearly just a way to bring Gogeta into the story. Of the four major Dragon Ball Z characters, only Goku had a meaningful role. And this is not just about power-ups, but their actual impact on the story. Even the new characters they set out to develop didn't do much.

The producers thinking fans only cared about Goku shows a bizarre lack of understanding of the franchise. It's a mistake I don't see Toyotaro making right now.

Gohan and Piccolo had a pretty meaningful goodbye in GT so it's not like they got anything. Following Z's ending with Gohan retiring as a fighter to become a scholar it's going to be really hard to have him contribute to a fighting series beyond minor character. I suppose he could have gone into space with Goku and Pan but one would assume Pan would be a lot more well behaved around her Papa and needed to play off two characters she doesn't respect as authority figures.

Vegeta as a domesticated house husband was a pretty logical conclusion to where his character ended in the Boo arc and I found that more refreshing than Super trying to make him a co-lead. His second mid life crisis near the end was definitely an excuse to get Gogeta in the series but it was a believable enough development.

If anyone got screwed over in GT it was Trunks, who was advertised as the third lead and got shafted and Oob, who was set up as Goku's successor at the end of Z and got cast aside.

[Zephyr]

Honestly I think the original manga had pretty consistently solid cast management. There's an ever-revolving door of friends and rivals for Goku to travel and fight with, and he's taken out of commission often and for long enough that others are able to step up to the plate and lead the charge for significant portions.

I think Tenshinhan resigned himself to uselessness a little too early in the Cell arc for my liking, but he still got to flex his stuff on Cell. It would have made sense to have at least some of the warriors who trained with Kaio to have learned the Kaio-ken, but that wouldn't have really mattered very much in a story about improving Super Saiyan, which I think was an entirely sensible direction to go. Meanwhile, the Boo arc's storytelling direction is largely centered on Goku and Vegeta's relationship with each other, and by extension their own kids, so it makes enough sense there that you'd be focusing on the Saiyan characters to the extent that Toriyama did.

GT, Super, and Daima, though? Lot of cause to ask "where is this character?" and "why on Earth wouldn't you have included that character in this sort of story?"

Dragon Ball ends with Goku taking on Oob as a pupil. If you're going to continue that story where it left off, as GT did, you'd think it'd be a story about Goku and Oob, first and foremost. Super had Roshi, Kuririn, and Tenshinhan show up when it would have made a lot more sense to have the cyborg twins and the Saiyan kids show up as well, if not instead. Piccolo effectively served zero purpose in the Champa arc, and you'd think that Gohan and present Trunks might be more involved in a story focusing so much on Future Trunks. Finally, Daima is largely about Boo's own origins and the consequences of his defeat, so it still boggles the mind that he wasn't brought along to the Demon Realm.

Then there's Vegeta...I think it makes enough sense that he'd be Goku's #2 in Daima, as that takes place so soon after the Boo arc where he remains Goku's main rival. But after the Tournament of Power and Broly, it would feel a lot more natural to bump him down so Freeza and/or Broli could be the new #2. And after the epilogue? It would have been natural for Oob to be the #2. Vegeta is effectively another Tenshinhan, but so much content made after the ending (including Toriyama's own revised ending from the Kanzenban) seems allergic to that notion.

[AliTheZombie13]

You know who this franchise really needs to succeed Toriyama?
Have them recruit Tara Gilesbie, Toriyama's humor is nothing next to hers.
I mean, Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way would wipe the floor with Goku and Vegeta.

[JulieYBM]

I definitely think that it's time to replace Vegeta with Freeza or Broli. Unfortunately, someone who is more creatively minded really has never been at the forefront of creating these stories. Toriyama did what was begged of him, typically, and the production committee exists to sell a product, which is precisely why Gokuu and Vegeta reverted to their more recognizable Majin Buu and Cell era clothes.

I'm not expecting things to change, though. There's no reason in their minds to stop pushing the series like they have been.