Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

https://x.com/jordanldurham/status/1896 ... 90491?s=46

It's basically confirmed he did not have SS4 before Neva forced it to awaken.

Which is what I was saying before. Goku simply KNEW there was a form beyond SS3 the same way he KNEW there was a form beyond SS2, or how he and Vegeta KNEW there was a form beyond SS. The difference is he did not reach it yet, he wasn't sure if it would work.

[MCDaveG]

The good: No fusion
The bad: The final fight/villain

I have a question...this is a show aimed at kids. Do kids really like it ?
Both Super (until the UI arc) and Daima have had bad viewership. Both aimed at kids. So who is this for is my question.

Like sure Kuu/Duu are lovable goofs, Glorio/Panzy are a breath of FRESH NEEDED AIR. But Gomah is literally a blank page of a invincible villain with that deus ex machina 3rd eye. Before the episode I said I bet one of 2 things will happen either fusion is introduced or Goku doesn't defeat the villain again and someone else will. Like if Goku already had SSJ4 after training post Buu saga WTF did we need Neva to unlock it ? That makes no sense to me. Could he not do it as a mini form ? That part bothered me the most. Toriyama said he hates being predictable and in that pursuit has made DB incredibly predictable. I love the man he's the greatest artist to draw but his writing leaves a lot to be desired.

I hate fusion and I'm starting to hate Kamehameha. They're genuinely making me hate one of the coolest things with the Kamehameha. The reason being that almost every fight they show the kamehameha. MAKE US MISS IT PLEASE. Stop milking it every fight. When you show off something so often to milk it it starts to lose its value, charm. Introduce new cool techniques. Less is more. Please tell me i'm not the only one feeling this way. And the fight I thought was disappointing, please introduce more creative ways to power up besides screaming all the time. Which is why I loved UIs introduction because it was different to the usual yelling like crazy. I don't know the fight didn't seem cool in any way it's just punch kick punch kick I was hoping for cool martial arts choreography. But I'll excuse them for this because of Gomahs size making that probably impossible.

Gomah is an awful villain. I feel the same way about him like I did with Pilaf as a character. It's a gag character that's not really funny or interesting in any way. And the 3rd eye thing ruined it for me. It's essentially impossible to defeat someone when they have the 3rd eye which is a problem. And only way of defeating him is hitting him 3x in the back of the head...YAWN.

Before Toriyama's passing I wished DB was given off to other new talented writers. Why can't Toei do a draft of talented writers for DB. Let each write a short story and pick the best ones. Simple as that. Same with the art. It's clear DB will live on forever like other big comic book IPs so why not treat it better ? This bad writing is going to hurt Toei too in the future because figures/merchandise might not be so popular which makes them less money. When SSJ Goku figures of Namek saga sell better than anything released in the last decade it tells you that writing is a major issue. To me DB is great when death is a possibility, when tension is big, when dialogue is snappy and not so cringe like today. Even OG DB had this, was brutal I mean kid Goku KILLED SO MANY PEOPLE. It had its cutesy goofy moments but the dialogue was also very mature and ahead of its time at times. Like in my head I'm thinking about a specific scenario that if Goku meets up with Bardock the show will make it very by the numbers right. How cool would and could it be if Goku clashes with Bardock initially because of the Saiyans genocidal murderous ways. Toriyama/Toyotarou would probably not even think about that aspect and would turn it into a bland ''cool, my son'' ''hey you're my dad?'' and just move on. I would hate if Goku's untapped Saiyan arc would just be brushed off with a single scene smh. That would legit piss me off. There's so many cool possibilities from a writing perspective that gives them depth but instead they always neglect it. The best thing Toyotarou can do is consume a lot of quality media and gain a new writing perspective on depth to stories.

I know this was very harsh but we all love DB right and we all want it to be the best it can be. I think it's cool that our community demands better. That's how it should be. I still enjoy whatever DB content we get even if I don't love it. DB is what created anime as we know it. So if you love any piece of anime you gotta respect DB.

Quick things I loved:
Duu/Kuu/Glorio/Panzy/Arinsu
Humor involving Vegeta ( I almost laughed as hard as I did when Goku shoved his power pole up Murasakis ass lol).
Those few minutes of Goku going through SSJ1-2-3 and culminating in SSJ4 was arguably top 10 DB moment ever. It was the best Daima moment for me. THE ANIMATION MY GOD...I don't think there is a more beautiful animation not just in DB but ANIME in general.

I really hope we see a lot more of Duu/Kuu/Glorio/Panzy. They should be part of the gang going forward. Toriyama can create fun characters and this was no exception (except Gomah).

I feel the same. And my comments from before may come around as bit harsh, but the thing is, if the franchise wasn’t oversaturated with disjointed stories, trying to catch-up the lightning in the bottle and call back to the zeitgest of the original series, I’d eat the Daima whole.
It had basically everything I did like in Z, keeping it kinda grounded in comparison to other shows and I’d be flabbergasted and amazed with that SSJ4.
Even tho that final fight is basically borefest akin to some of the Z movies and the simplicity of what’s happening is only elevated by the best production up to date in a weekly DB show. Not to mention Gomah, you’ve summed it up nicely.

It kinda sucks, as I am huge fan of Toriyama’s signature approach to design, ideas and stories.
Daima was full of that spirit until that second part.
And it’s the last thing we’ve got with him attached.
And no follow-ups in interviews from maestro himself and possible sequels, obviously.

But in the last 15 years, I have seen BOG with great script after the show ended with GT, which was super exciting (and I forgot the huge hype and craziness over that 2008 20 mins short!).
Kinda meh Ressurection F which is kinda there.
Super, which recycled the movies and basically wasted that time with worse writing, plotholes and the worst production quality there was, only to pick up around Trunks arc and killing it with Tournament Of Power.
It used the same tropes as Z and went into overdrive with over the top transformations. But I had fun on weekly basis, watching it for scientific purposes and starting to enjoy it with introduction of Goku Black.

That made me effectively hyped for Daima… maybe overhyped, as the intro episodes hooked me with the visuals and classic Toriyama perks and soldifying the hype up to the fights with Tamagami…
It was packed with fun lore, fun characters, I dig that adventure setup, which was super boring and flat in GT.
But with the giant hamster planet, it went downhill and around episode 17, I was like oh please, spin it around, don’t fall into that mediocrity I’ve already seen this many times, you have limited time left, use it wisely… and they did.
Wasting two episodes on generic climax fight with pulling the fan service SSJ4 card, no story or interesting sauce, just a redesign basically. They at least did more with Broly in Super. Just to return for the fun character stuff with Kuu and co. for the last few minutes at the end, to end it abruptly and resolve the rest with image stills over end credits

So it basically went from parting anniversary masterpiece to classic TOEI movie crap IMHO and went nowhere.
The biggest plot twist basically being The Last Jedi Rian Johnson from Wish, as they lost the bugs and nobody even noticed.

I am fatigued with Dragon Ball, for sure.
None of the new material can hold the candle for the original series for many reasons. Except for BOG maybe, as that works great as an extra in that time period.
But I feel like it’s all a caricature of the OG show, with it’s own share of problems, extending and building on arc that Toriyama wanted to be done with back in the day but with clever ideas, culminating in lazy recolored forms and not reinventing or revolutionizing the formula in pretty much any significant way… even fans did the overdone Multiverse trend before Super did and it felt a bit more fresh.
Even tho it opened a ton of possibilities, it still stayed kinda basic and went nowhere in the end.
And oversaturating the timeskip period before the EOZ as well.

[JulieYBM]

I can't wait for some interview somewhere to give an entirely different answer to whether or not Gokuu could already use Super Saiyan 4 lol.

Just giving a straight forward answer on the subject seems impossible for this franchise sometimes lol.

[Thani]

I think Goku said it himself to Vegeta.

"Buu was really strong, so I kept training hard. But I didn't know if it would work."

I took it as he knowing of SS4 in some level, training to attain it, but not knowing if using it would actually work. In the same vein as he knowing he could combine Kaioken with SSB, but not being sure it wouldn't just kill him instead.

[SupremeKai25]

Both Super (until the UI arc) and Daima have had bad viewership.

How did the Future Trunks saga have "bad viewership" when some of its episodes literally overtook One Piece in ratings?

https://www.crunchyroll.com/news/latest ... se-ratings

[Scsigs]

Both Super (until the UI arc) and Daima have had bad viewership.

How did the Future Trunks saga have "bad viewership" when some of its episodes literally overtook One Piece in ratings?

https://www.crunchyroll.com/news/latest ... se-ratings

"Because shut up."

[LoganForkHands73]

I can't agree enough with this. I always had issues with SS4's design in GT, but you could kind of handwave them as "it isn't tecnically the follow up to SS3 but its own thing". In Daima, it pretty much is. Which makes it even more disappointing how poorly it is introduced since it comes out of nowhere, or why it has Oozaru features at all, nostalgia aside. Or why it is completely in shades of red/magenta with no golden at all despite keeping the same aura (when it isn't weirdly white outlined that is). It's also extremely boring. Even ignoring the unique mechanics the original SS4 had, UI and UE also are pretty special instead of just...well, SS but stronger. So now that we are getting a literal SS4, it doesn't even have the drawbacks SS3, or at least they are not big enough to even matter in a two episode fight. I woukd evwn argue Blue of all forms is mlre interesting, soecially in the manga.

In this context, Daima's Super Saiyan 4 is like Freeza's fourth form, subverting the expected evolution of the previous transformations. Judging by the concept sketches of Super Saiyan 3 - namely the one with the golden tail - it seems Toriyama wasn't opposed to further evolutions of the Saiyan form bringing back their primal characteristics. But on the whole, I agree that Super Saiyan 4 doesn't feel like the most natural continuation of Super Saiyan.

The white aura only seems to have been used because the fight takes place in a murky red and brown arena where the form's colour scheme blends in. I couldn't have been the only one struggling to make out what was going on half the time because it's all just a blurry mush of red.

It also hurted the pacing a lot that Gomah makes Goku "devolve" to base just so we can have another big power up moment with Goku going trough all the forms as an adult...in the very next episode. I really don't understand what happened in the later episodes, they felt like a mess and really lost my engagment when it became clear that no matter what the cast did, Gomah would just power up even more and deal with them. They gang on him? He power ups and defeats then, forcing Goku to use SS3. Ss3 Goku is putring out a fight? Nah, Gomah powers up again and defeats him. Goku unlocks SS4 and stands up to him? Nah, he is a giant now and has reverted Goku to base. They are adults again, and SS3 Vegeta alone is damaging Gomah? Nah, he powers up again and defeats him. SS4 Goku as an adult is fighting him? He is out of breath and only st the end manages to pierce him with a Kame-nevermind he regenerated.

Out of all those instances only him becoming giant gives some kind of extremely superficial DB-esque sense of progression. In all others he constantly feels pain but the Eye just buffs him more and more. I can't believe I'm going to say this- but even Anime Jiren managed to work better, because while they are the same on principle (no matter what the heroes throw at the enemy, he comes at top) Jiren seemed genuinely unfazed by most of it, which meant that him finally having to fight back and actually try was more satisfying. Gomah however was clearly in pain from multiple attacks, so it was hard to even gauge what was supposed to be working or not. The end of the fight didn't even manage to sell me on the idea of hopeless feeling the characters should have after he regenerates, again probably because of pacing issues.

Gomah has plenty of issues as the final antagonist by himself but I was genuinely less bothered by that than what I mention here.

Agreed on this, too. Instant regeneration is an overused and largely unsatisfying crutch for past Dragon Ball villains, but Gomah might have had the lamest implementation of all. As soon as adult Vegeta starts seriously hurting him in his base form, it's hard to believe that Gomah is truly this formidable final obstacle.

They can't even seem to decide exactly how huge Gomah is meant to be by the end of the fight. Goku gives him a bear hug and wraps his arms around his waist. Even with SS4 Goku's Popeye forearms, that surely can't be possible. And yet it is.

They could have done more interesting things with the Third Eye. Perhaps emphasising that Gomah was becoming little more than a vessel, and the Eye itself is the true antagonist?

The downside of Gomah being such a loveable buffoon is that there's barely any sense of urgency to see him defeated. Like, what's the worst that could happen if the heroes can't beat him? I mean, yeah, he'll kill them all and take over the Demon Realm, but he seems more focused on preening with that smug grin on his face. The non-combatant supporting cast are all just standing there, casually watching the action.

[TKA]

Dan Mora.

He's from costa rica, so him being a dragonball mark is expected.

For what I think are very obvious reasons, Goku and the saiyans mean more to minority groups than Superman ever will.

[Basaku]

Sure, if Toriyama and Toei wanted, they absolutely could change Daima's story to fit with Super's. They could either remove those elements or slightly alter then, and the overall plot wouldn't even change that much at all. But why? Would Super be better because of it? Would Daima be? Personally, I don't think so. None of these shows would benefit from being in the same continuity, and so I'm fine with things as they are.

The franchise as a whole would be tho. What's the narrative or artistic value of having 2 sequels that ignore each other? Like you said, having them connected wouldn't change or hurt anything so why not if it keeps the overall universe and narrative more cohesive this way and would allow to utilize stuff introduced in Daima in future Super arcs, or post-EOZ arcs? It would make up for a far richer universe, rather than each of the disconnectes "sequels" missing entire big chunks of lore

Regardless, my main point was never that Daima itself needs to be sepparated from Super. Sure, It's what they chose to do and it's what I personally prefer, since it's just a smaller and inconsequential story that would just be filler to Super anyway. However, I think that the precedent is what is important here. Some stories might not work at all in this grander Dragon Ball timeline, even if Daima didn't need to be one of them. Canon can limit storytelling, it can get in the way of new ideas. Sometimes you just have to get a new Dragon Ball thing out and not have all that new stuff from another story that is still in progress and you don't want to use get in the way.

That is what I was responding tho. The notion that canon would somehow limit the creativity, and thus by extension the quality of writing. One could argue how it's proven by many succesful reboots in other franchises but LBR, in post-revival Dragon Ball? Where we're wonderiing whether the next arc will even be halfway decent in any part of its writing? Yeah I really don't think so...

Besides, even at its peak writing period (end of OG/Z), the canon never limited Toriyama. When he wanted to make something new or do actual retcons (by the original definition of a retcon, aka a new or previously-unknown information in a sequel that changes how we view things said earlier) he always did it and just made it work. It was also never a big issue as... it hardly ever is when the retcons happen in sequels, in a logical sequence of events and new information coming in. It's the prequels and midquels that always mess things up - like Super did to GT and Daima is doing now. But then again... No one forced Toriyama to set Z ending 10 years post Boo and no one forced him to write new stories in the modern revival era between Boo and EOZ.

[johnboy1]

For what I think are very obvious reasons, Goku and the saiyans mean more to minority groups than Superman ever will.

...You're gonna have to explain this, because it's not obvious to me. As much as Goku looks like any race, he looks white as the driven snow. His status as an "immigrant", so to speak, is identical to Superman's. Goku has faced more trials and adversity in his life than Supes (simply by virtue of needing to train rather than absorbing sunlight), but he's never faced anything you or I might consider hardship. What exactly makes him appealing to minorities?

[JulieYBM]

For what I think are very obvious reasons, Goku and the saiyans mean more to minority groups than Superman ever will.

...You're gonna have to explain this, because it's not obvious to me. As much as Goku looks like any race, he looks white as the driven snow. His status as an "immigrant", so to speak, is identical to Superman's. Goku has faced more trials and adversity in his life than Supes (simply by virtue of needing to train rather than absorbing sunlight), but he's never faced anything you or I might consider hardship. What exactly makes him appealing to minorities?

Clark often loses his powers for one reason or another, so it's hardly like he doesn't know how to deal with problems without them. Hell, he was even killed once.

That all being said, this is probably best left for a separate topic lol

[TKA]

...You're gonna have to explain this, because it's not obvious to me. As much as Goku looks like any race, he looks white as the driven snow. His status as an "immigrant", so to speak, is identical to Superman's. Goku has faced more trials and adversity in his life than Supes (simply by virtue of needing to train rather than absorbing sunlight), but he's never faced anything you or I might consider hardship. What exactly makes him appealing to minorities?

Dragonball Z is what took off in the west, moreso than the original Dragonball anime ever did.

The first major arc of Z is about a slave underclass rising up against a colonizer who called them monkeys.

Superman, especially as a pop culture figure, is deeply attached to apple pie, americana and the fantasy of the 1950s. All of that shit was only good if you were a white person (or more specifically, a white man). To other peoples, he's representative of US empire and the colonizers.

I'm giving you very truncated cliffnotes. Others have written more extensively on the matter and you can seek all that out. Doesn't have much to do with Daima, so I don't want to get into it.

[MCDaveG]

...You're gonna have to explain this, because it's not obvious to me. As much as Goku looks like any race, he looks white as the driven snow. His status as an "immigrant", so to speak, is identical to Superman's. Goku has faced more trials and adversity in his life than Supes (simply by virtue of needing to train rather than absorbing sunlight), but he's never faced anything you or I might consider hardship. What exactly makes him appealing to minorities?

Dragonball Z is what took off in the west, moreso than the original Dragonball anime ever did.

The first major arc of Z is about a slave underclass rising up against a colonizer who called them monkeys.

Superman, especially as a pop culture figure, is deeply attached to apple pie, americana and the fantasy of the 1950s. All of that shit was only good if you were a white person (or more specifically, a white man). To other peoples, he's representative of US empire and the colonizers.

I'm giving you very truncated cliffnotes. Others have written more extensively on the matter and you can seek all that out. Doesn't have much to do with Daima, so I don't want to get into it.

People tend to forget, that Superman was fantasy of two jewish immigrants, Siegel and Shuster, basically a power fantasy after centuries of oppression and pogroms, coming after great depression and during the rise of nazi regime and return of said oppression and later holocaust - being alien with his home destroyed (Kanaan / Israel).
The character transformed dramatically through many writers till today, but to label him as generic white male hero is not exactly right based on his roots…
That goes to Batman, being billionaire to finance his toys for revenge

Great article on Superman and his jewish roots:
https://nbrehmer.medium.com/hope-alleg ... cf54fdd872

[omaro34]

Loved the lore in the series, loved the animation, but characters were wasted a bit, especially Piccolo. If Piccolo didn't join, nothing would have changed in the story plot wise.

Sigh, at least Super Hero did him justice.

[TKA]

People tend to forget, that Superman was fantasy of two jewish immigrants, Siegel and Shuster, basically a power fantasy after centuries of oppression and pogroms

Superman's origin means nothing when Siegel and Shuster were penniless and basically begging for scraps before Neal Adams took up their plight and helped them fight to get some level of payment from DC. Their brainchild stopped being their brainchild pretty quickly into its life cycle.

The Superman people think of when they think of Superman is the one from the Donner movies and maybe a still frame from one of the old Fleischer animated movies.

People rejected strongly the Superman of modern times who represented the immigrant, the alien and that which doesn't conform to modern american societal standards. The director often talks about Superman representing "truth, justice and that other thing," because what even *is* "The american way"? To quote the-totally-true-to-the-original-Japanese Android 13 from everyone's favorite movie:

War, segregation, hatred! Is that what you've done with your free will, boy?

All those things are just as much The American Way as all the sentimental aphorisms typically associated with the character.

And, again, people rejected that level of analysis because they wanted him to "smile more".

So whatever superman might've represented as two canadian jewish boys concepted the character, that has long since been subsumed by enslavement to the status quo and the need to be marketable.

[MCDaveG]

People tend to forget, that Superman was fantasy of two jewish immigrants, Siegel and Shuster, basically a power fantasy after centuries of oppression and pogroms

Superman's origin means nothing when Siegel and Shuster were penniless and basically begging for scraps before Neal Adams took up their plight and helped them fight to get some level of payment from DC. Their brainchild stopped being their brainchild pretty quickly into its life cycle.

The Superman people think of when they think of Superman is the one from the Donner movies and maybe a still frame from one of the old Fleischer animated movies.

People rejected strongly the Superman of modern times who represented the immigrant, the alien and that which doesn't conform to modern american societal standards. The director often talks about Superman representing "truth, justice and that other thing," because what even *is* "The american way"? To quote the-totally-true-to-the-original-Japanese Android 13 from everyone's favorite movie:

War, segregation, hatred! Is that what you've done with your free will, boy?

All those things are just as much The American Way as all the sentimental aphorisms typically associated with the character.

And, again, people rejected that level of analysis because they wanted him to "smile more".

So whatever superman might've represented as two canadian jewish boys concepted the character, that has long since been subsumed by enslavement to the status quo and the need to be marketable.

It’s all in the article

[SSGpotota]

I hope Daima is at least canon in broad strokes. Too much interesting worldbuilding to let it go to waste.
That and Vegeta being a boob man and loving baths with his wife.

[Trouser]

I hope Daima is at least canon in broad strokes. Too much interesting worldbuilding to let it go to waste.

Since when Toriyama's work is "not canon"? Daima is 100% "canon" whether part of fandom likes it or not. Super, unfortunately, is "canon" too. It's a mess but it is what it is.

[Scsigs]

I hope Daima is at least canon in broad strokes. Too much interesting worldbuilding to let it go to waste.

Since when Toriyama's work is "not canon"? Daima is 100% "canon" whether part of fandom likes it or not. Super, unfortunately, is "canon" too. It's a mess but it is what it is.

Problem is that there's a shortlist of things that make them incompatible with one another. You can't say both are canon because of those without something that changes them.

[Trouser]

I hope Daima is at least canon in broad strokes. Too much interesting worldbuilding to let it go to waste.

Since when Toriyama's work is "not canon"? Daima is 100% "canon" whether part of fandom likes it or not. Super, unfortunately, is "canon" too. It's a mess but it is what it is.

Problem is that there's a shortlist of things that make them incompatible with one another. You can't say both are canon because of those without something that changes them.

It is a problem, but it's not a new problem. This problem was created when the Super's anime and manga went on a different paths. Both versions of Super are canon. It's the same with Daima. Does it fit with one another? No. But it was made by Toriyama and this fandom cares only about his work (as we all know). Is it stupid? Yes. But that's the way it works.

It's a mess. But it's all "canon". And it can't be fixed by anyone, because Toyotaro isn't really a Toriyama's successor and neither is Toei. Shueisha has the last word and they don't care.