"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[sangofe]

I have no doubt these 5 will all play crucial roles in the story; I just hope Toyotaro manages to stick the landing with it. This will not only likely be Super's final story arc, it will be the final story that Toriyama had any involvement with. Toyotaro has been hit or miss for the most part, so hopefully this will be a hit.

Nobody knows that, man.

[ZombieVito]

Nobody knows that, man.

I refuse to believe Toriyama and Toyo never talked about how to wrap up Freeza.

[Noah]

Spoiler:

It is possible that Toyotaro took inspiration from this fan art?

Also was already announced we're getting a new manga arc presenting these guys?

[kemuri07]

Nobody knows that, man.

I refuse to believe Toriyama and Toyo never talked about how to wrap up Freeza.

It is quite possible that there is no intention of a Black Freeza arc, hence why the series decided to randomly follow it up with a SuperHero adaptation. Its' been like, what, 2 years since the Black Freeza reveal happened?

Someone said it on the board awhile ago, and the more time goes on the more this is likely: The reveal was not meant to tease Freeza as the next (and possibly final) villain of Super, but instead work as some sort of ending for Freeza's character in of itself. The last we see of Freeza is basically him offering a direct challenge to Goku and Vegeta and cheerfully allowing the villain's subordinates to role with him. That Freeza's commitment to training, while not making him a good a person, has made him a "better" person.

[Mr Baggins]

Someone said it on the board awhile ago, and the more time goes on the more this is likely: The reveal was not meant to tease Freeza as the next (and possibly final) villain of Super, but instead work as some sort of ending for Freeza's character in of itself.

That's not a bad reading, assuming that the manga doesn't continue. But whoever thinks it was intentional is probably wrong.

Black Frieza is literally depicted as a looming shadow in the sky at the start of the Super Hero arc. Toyotaro drew him for his latest Jump Festa celebration piece, which has consistently promoted what the manga was currently doing or working toward as of the last several years. It almost certainly was in the cards.

Whether it's still in the cards now is an open question, although tentatively speaking, I think you can end the entire story with chapter 103 and have it serve as a satisfyingly EoZ-ist conclusion to this series. Unwitting, mind you, but satisfying enough.

[capsulecorp]

Someone said it on the board awhile ago, and the more time goes on the more this is likely: The reveal was not meant to tease Freeza as the next (and possibly final) villain of Super, but instead work as some sort of ending for Freeza's character in of itself. The last we see of Freeza is basically him offering a direct challenge to Goku and Vegeta and cheerfully allowing the villain's subordinates to role with him. That Freeza's commitment to training, while not making him a good a person, has made him a "better" person.

Yes, this was me but I believe others have said it too. Training to the point where he gets the opportunity to kill Goku and NOT doing so is a fitting conclusion to the character arc developed for Frieza in RoF and beyond. It's true that he appears at the start of the Super Hero arc but that reads to me as a "powerful rival" more than an "existential threat"... or deliberate misdirection, similar to his role in the Cell arc.

That said, at this point, anything is possible and "fanservice" elements like a big Black Frieza fight are probably more likely now that Toriyama is gone.

[kemuri07]

I think a Black Freeza fight will happen because people want it to happen. But it's more likely that Feeza and Goku will team up again to fight some stronger opponent. Because people really liked their team up against Jiren, so I imagine that's just going to be a thing.

[Cipher]

I really didn't think the series was ever necessitating, nor even working toward a Black Freeza-as-villain-arc upon his debut, nor even after the first chapter of the Super Hero arc.

I do think he was likely to play a secondary/unwilling-ally role in another arc, if that isn't still in the cards, but even if more content never comes, he works well enough as a punchline to the Granolah arc and really Super as a whole. He's just another evil frenemy at this point.

[johnboy1]

I think anyone suggesting that there won't be a big confrontation with Black Frieza at some point in the future is kidding themselves. It doesn't have to be the next arc. It doesn't have to be the last arc. It doesn't even need to be the climax of its own arc, but it must happen. Is it trite to have Frieza as a/the big threat for a third time? Yes. But the story as it exists now demands that such a confrontation happen. Frieza was not there to show the end of his character arc. He was there to let everyone know who the biggest dog in the yard is, and to dare the protagonists to claim otherwise. Dramatically speaking, that dare must be answered.

Let me put it this way: The Oracle Fish made a big deal of presaging Black Frieza as the "strongest in the universe", meaning Frieza is quite possibly more powerful than Beerus or Whis. I want anyone in this thread to look me in the eye and tell me that, in a shonen battle manga, it's entirely reasonable to have a hostile force that unimaginably powerful show up for two pages, make the main characters look like clowns, walk off all smug... and let that be the ultimate culmination of their conflict. It sounds kinda backwards and illogical, doesn't it?

[sangofe]

I think anyone suggesting that there won't be a big confrontation with Black Frieza at some point in the future is kidding themselves. It doesn't have to be the next arc. It doesn't have to be the last arc. It doesn't even need to be the climax of its own arc, but it must happen. Is it trite to have Frieza as a/the big threat for a third time? Yes. But the story as it exists now demands that such a confrontation happen. Frieza was not there to show the end of his character arc. He was there to let everyone know who the biggest dog in the yard is, and to dare the protagonists to claim otherwise. Dramatically speaking, that dare must be answered.

Let me put it this way: The Oracle Fish made a big deal of presaging Black Frieza as the "strongest in the universe", meaning Frieza is quite possibly more powerful than Beerus or Whis. I want anyone in this thread to look me in the eye and tell me that, in a shonen battle manga, it's entirely reasonable to have a hostile force that unimaginably powerful show up for two pages, make the main characters look like clowns, walk off all smug... and let that be the ultimate culmination of their conflict. It sounds kinda backwards and illogical, doesn't it?

It's no direct comparision but the fusion bugs in Dragon Ball Daima were never used. Toriyama used to love to throw curve balls. I do think Black Freeza arc will happen but there hasn't been an announcement so we simply don't know. Lately I have been thinking that it would be really cool if they made contests for new story tellers to Dragon Ball to let new blood in. The draw back is, however, we don't know who would judge these contests and actually let someone with creative, good storytelling in...

[Cipher]

I think anyone suggesting that there won't be a big confrontation with Black Frieza at some point in the future is kidding themselves. It doesn't have to be the next arc. It doesn't have to be the last arc. It doesn't even need to be the climax of its own arc, but it must happen. Is it trite to have Frieza as a/the big threat for a third time? Yes. But the story as it exists now demands that such a confrontation happen. Frieza was not there to show the end of his character arc. He was there to let everyone know who the biggest dog in the yard is, and to dare the protagonists to claim otherwise. Dramatically speaking, that dare must be answered.

Let me put it this way: The Oracle Fish made a big deal of presaging Black Frieza as the "strongest in the universe", meaning Frieza is quite possibly more powerful than Beerus or Whis. I want anyone in this thread to look me in the eye and tell me that, in a shonen battle manga, it's entirely reasonable to have a hostile force that unimaginably powerful show up for two pages, make the main characters look like clowns, walk off all smug... and let that be the ultimate culmination of their conflict. It sounds kinda backwards and illogical, doesn't it?

Still waiting on those big story-arc defining rematches with Piccolo and Vegeta, eh? Or Beerus? Jiren?

Is there a unique property of Black Freeza that causes people to forget how Dragon Ball has always worked?

He was there to let everyone know who the biggest dog in the yard is, and to dare the protagonists to claim otherwise. Dramatically speaking, that dare must be answered.

Typically in Dragon Ball that hasn't been a dare, but a thematic promise that there's always someone stronger out there, which Black Freeza pointedly functions as in his introduction, to the extent it even feels like an arc punchline. Tenshinhan in the 23rd is the rare case where a close match with an antagonist is ever directly followed up on. Even then, the preceding arc has already knocked Tenshinhan down a peg via his and Goku's respective matches against Piccolo.

Letting us know that Goku and Vegeta are training with Freeza in mind makes sense, but I would be shocked if, were the series to continue, we saw any role for Freeza other than supporting player and/or stakes-identifier against a larger threat.

[johnboy1]

Is there a unique property of Black Freeza that causes people to forget how Dragon Ball has always worked?

1.) We've never had a villain show up and trounce Goku without getting a rematch.
2.) We've never had a villain get a new form that one or more protagonists haven't gotten a "proper" fight against (i.e., more than a OHKO).
3.) Frieza, of all people, should make you think a rematch was coming, because he's had the distinction of being the Big Bad twice already and was all "I'm back, bitches" after he was restored to life post-ToP, then trying to have Goku killed with Broly, then showing up to pwn him with the Black power-up. He's in this for the long haul.

So really, there's no reason for us to think that Dragon Ball as a story necessitates that Frieza be done as an antagonist at this point.

Seriously, neither Piccolo nor Vegeta built themselves up as a continuing threat the way Frieza has, and I challenge you to show otherwise. The Granolah arc ends with Frieza in a state of complete dominance (even foreshadowed as being the strongest in the universe), and no less sadistic than he ever was in the past. By contrast, Piccolo was beaten, Jiren was beaten, Vegeta was beaten so badly that he barely got away with his life, and Beerus (while dominant) was largely over the whole thing by the time he beat Goku.

So riddle me this: What is Black Frieza's story function going forward, if not as a larger-scale antagonist? He's had his chance to be "domesticated" like Goku's other rivals, and he hasn't taken the bait. He still hates Goku, and still actively plans to kill him, and still actively has an army running rampant over the galaxy, so Goku's not likely to be his friend. Him just existing off in the background for the rest of the story without taking part in it is ridiculous on its face, so that's not it. Unless you think they're just going to kill him off quickly in the next arc to make the new Big Bad look scary, there's not much left to do with him.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The thought of freeza "redeeming" himself or even becoming a better person at all is absurd. The most we'll ever get is him fighting against jiren to prevent the universe's distruction, these are the only circumstances where he'll ever ally himself with the z fighters.

Not every villain is a vegeta or a piccolo. Those 2 joined the good guys team the very next arc they were introduced in, meanwhile freeza came back for blood twice (I don't count black freeza here because he only came to flex on them and humilliate them) and got killed twice, there's clearly a difference between them. Dragonball doesn't always turn villains into good guys.

General Blue? Tao Pai Pai? Raditz? Nappa? Zarbon? Dodoria? The Ginyu Force? King Cold? Dr Gero? Cell? Babidi? Dabura? Zamasu? Moro?
Did any of them turn good? No? And I didn't even mention every villain. Then I guess dragonball hasn't "always worked like this" and not all villains get redeemed.

And like Mr Baggins said, they're clearly setting him up as the main antagonist both in the manga itself and in promotional media. Hell, the volume 24 cover is pretty clearly the team that will end up fighting him. Doing all this set up work and then not make them fight would be absurdly bad writing. No one is going to buy a freeza turns good storyline

[Mr Baggins]

Still waiting on those big story-arc defining rematches with Piccolo and Vegeta, eh? Or Beerus? Jiren?

Frieza explicitly defied that pattern a decade ago. He's more than equipped to do so again. I dunno about "arc-defining", but the argument ITT that he wasn't foreshadowed to play a major role in some way going forward is obtuse on its face.

Frieza's just built different.

[Koitsukai]

Even if it's to play a non-antagonistic role, Freeza has been teased enough for us to believe he will be coming back once more. Whether it's to be the final boss or to uncover a new threat not even he can take on (and he'll end up teaming up with Goku, again -and make a joke out of the whole thing, to deal with), it's on the cards that we'll see more of him.
How he'll be used is up to Toyo or whatever Akira had in mind, but enough has been said to logically assume he will be seen again and not be forgotten like he was just another bus.

It's not just Toyo's little silly arc that has him at the center, Akira's Broly movie ended with Freeza wanting to come back for more, with some big ally, too.

[johnboy1]

Frieza's just built different.

This. I suppose the impulse to say that "Frieza's done" is because until RF the only recurring villain we had in the manga was the Pilaf crew*, and their threat level was always... variable at best. Frieza is Pilaf with teeth. The fandom expects serious villains to either become Goku's allies/frenemies or die and stay dead. Frieza does not fit that mold, and there's no reason to think he's just decided to cozy himself into that mold right now.

*Frieza technically recurred at the beginning of the Android arc, but manga readers at the time (not knowing that the Androids were coming) would have seen that as a mere continuation of the threat he posed on Namek, since there was no Garlic Jr arc to give a concrete sense of separation between them.

Even if it's to play a non-antagonistic role, Freeza has been teased enough for us to believe he will be coming back once more. Whether it's to be the final boss or to uncover a new threat not even he can take on (and he'll end up teaming up with Goku, again -and make a joke out of the whole thing, to deal with), it's on the cards that we'll see more of him.
How he'll be used is up to Toyo or whatever Akira had in mind, but enough has been said to logically assume he will be seen again and not be forgotten like he was just another bus.

It's not just Toyo's little silly arc that has him at the center, Akira's Broly movie ended with Freeza wanting to come back for more, with some big ally, too.

Just a heads-up: It's not a huge deal, but broadly speaking it's respectful to refer to creatives by their last name, not their first. So it should be "Toriyama", not "Akira".

[MisteryOne]

Frankly, the biggest issue I have with a Black Frieza arc, as I have said begore, is that he needs something or rather someone else to help to even create a story arc. You can't make RoF 2 with all those powerful characters around at the same level...yet at the same time, we know Goku and Vegeta get oneshoted by Frieza, and Gohan and Broly did not seem that much more powerful than Goku in the Super Hero epilogue. As it stands now, I don't see how these 5 jumping at Frieza at the same time would do anyrhing, simply because of how DB battles work. We need something more. Either another villain that is with Frieza, or against him. Someone more, some kind of dynamic.

Speaking of that...yeah, I don't buy that in modern DB they would let a brand new transformation be unused. It isn't a matter of, just when and how Black Frieza will see use. I also really don't see how anyone can read the Granolah and Super Hero arcs and think they are not setting something up with Frieza- it's literally the motivation for Broly finally moving to Beerus planet to train. I would even argue whatever payoff should have happened before Super Hero itself to avoid the messy attempts at connecting the two arc that Toyotaro had to clumsily try to get in, despite Super Hero being clearly written right after Broly (and more importantly, Granolah's climax as a character happening offscreen- a disastrous end to an initially fantastic character). The only question is if Toriyama even had a clear idea about what it even was or if it was his usual wrotong on the fly, or mayhe it was even Toyotaro writting retroactively from Super Hero, no way to know.

This was not the end for Frieza. Such a popular character is going to keep being reused even if you believe their character arc is complete. Vegeta and Gohan are right there. I'm amazed this is a topic of discussion to begin with.

[Alruneia]

I have to agree that "They fight Frieza again but he's REALLY really strong this time" isn't a very compelling story arc idea. I know people have been talking about wanting Frieza to team up with a freshly introduced Cooler to make it more interesting and all, but personally I don't think that's the solution. I think another arc with more than two competing factions, where Frieza is on his own "third team", would be the way to go. Like on Namek with Vegeta on his own third team for a while before joining the Goku crew, or in the Cell arc where Cell is his own third team until the androids join the Goku crew. It collapses down to the big bad versus everyone else in the end, sure, but I think it makes for interesting build-up. I think that's a better way to use Black Frieza than to just have a literal "Black Frieza arc".
(Also, as someone who still does kinda want Frieza to go die, it would be really funny to me if the way that happened was through "PERDÓNAME POR TODO GOKUUUU" becoming real.)

[LoganForkHands73]

Not sure if this has been suggested yet, but what are the chances of the 'Black Freeza arc' having Freeza himself as the sole POV protagonist, driving his own conflicts elsewhere in the universe that eventually circles back to involving Goku and Vegeta somehow? We've already had several major perspective shifts, first to Trunks, then to Piccolo, so it would feel like a fairly natural continuation. And of course, Freeza has already been a major supporting character in the Tournament of Power. Not to mention that gaiden chapter of the Moro arc.

Shit, the more I think about this, the more plausible it feels. Freeza has fully embraced Goku's self-improvement philosophy, trained offscreen to become one of the strongest beings, casually defeated Gas, and now seems to have picked up his own quirky supporting cast in Berryblue, Kikono, Oil and Macki. Freeza doesn't have to sacrifice his evilness, all he needs is a new rival threatening his domination of the universe. I mean, I'm not advocating for it, but if there's any time to reintroduce Cooler... C'mon, you know Toyotaro would slaver at the opportunity.

Perhaps when all that is done, we finally get another rematch against Goku, but it's from Freeza's perspective. I know it's too much to ask for, but I'd be thrilled to see something like the Governor's arc in season 4 of The Walking Dead. After an arc of seeing this ruthless bastard committing atrocities, we see him suffer, find new companions, and we spend just enough time to empathise and root for the possibility of redemption... only to be reminded that he really is an incurable, sociopathic control freak who can't let go of his grudge against the heroes.

I think that would offer a good compromise for people wanting to see a full redemption arc. Something great about Dragon Ball is that it acknowledges that anyone can change. Freeza can too, maybe even for the better, but he is a clinical psychopath who chooses to stay evil (whereas Piccolo for example was literally born into it) and I don't think anyone would be satisfied if he miraculously "saw the light".

[Magnificent Ponta]

I feel like Daima actually cracks the door open for a Freeza-antagonist arc where it previously seemed less likely (if Super is still going to be A Thing at all, that is).

In the one hand, we have a whole new realm, with a significant chunk in its middle stripe substantially emptied out and with literal planets floating around in it (and a Supreme Demon King who made a point of saying he'd call on Goku and co if there were ever trouble again), and in the other, we have a planet-trading tyrant frenemy doing what he likes, with power the heroes currently can't match.

Freeza could quite readily find a Warp-Sama near one of his newest acquisitions, and all of that sounds like a very easy marriage of elements for a ready-made arc premise, whether it follows a conventional Dragon Ball action storyline pattern after that, or instead does something lighter and more imaginative.

(Also it would be nice if at the end of such an arc there were a Neko Majin stowaway back to Earth, please and thank you)