Daima to Super Connection

[FinalForumPodcast]

The others, I'd say are just things that sort of come about in the course of the story to show us that Goku isn't a "means to an end" type of person.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Goku won't allow someone else to be hurt just to stop the bad guy. The ends don't justify the means for him. That's in contrast to say, Vegeta or Piccolo, who would absolutely blow a hole through an ally in order to stop an enemy.

[Yuji]

Goku won't allow someone else to be hurt just to stop the bad guy.

Goku is not that simple-minded.

[Muffin Man]

The others, I'd say are just things that sort of come about in the course of the story to show us that Goku isn't a "means to an end" type of person.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Goku won't allow someone else to be hurt just to stop the bad guy. The ends don't justify the means for him. That's in contrast to say, Vegeta or Piccolo, who would absolutely blow a hole through an ally in order to stop an enemy.

Sure, but don't you think that's kind of selfless and heroic when it means he's putting himself at risk as a result?

Also, how does that apply to Goku helping Upa and Bora (who he had just met)? He tries to save Bora and is outraged at Tao for killing him, and then promises to wish Bora back even though it means he'll lose the 4 star ball again (and in fact Goku's main motivation for the rest of the arc is gathering the DBs so he can revive Bora). Plus he saves Upa.

[FinalForumPodcast]

Goku won't allow someone else to be hurt just to stop the bad guy.

I don't remember this specific exchange...


But in any event, my more contextual point was that HE won't do it, and he won't allow the villain to MANIPULATE him in to doing it. Which I think only the top example really refutes.

There's a difference between Piccolo attempting to force Goku to go through Tien to get to him, and accepting that Buu will take lives, but it's more strategic to stop him a different way.

Sure, but don't you think that's kind of selfless and heroic when it means he's putting himself at risk as a result?

Also, how does that apply to Goku helping Upa and Bora (who he had just met)? He tries to save Bora and is outraged at Tao for killing him, and then promises to wish Bora back even though it means he'll lose the 4 star ball again (and in fact Goku's main motivation for the rest of the arc is gathering the DBs so he can revive Bora). Plus he saves Upa.

Heroic, I guess. But SUPERHEROIC, do-gooder, trying to thwart the forces of evil and bring balance to an unjust world? Not really.



Dragon Ball has hundreds of chapters that were produced weekly by a guy who would often procrastinate. His overall point was he thought the anime softened Goku too much compared to the version that always lived in his own head, even if he also occasionally did that in order to hit a deadline. He felt it was done to a further degree in the animation. I'm not saying I COMPLETELY agree, but I do get it, and won't overly argue with the series' creator when he says: "once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him."

[Koitsukai]

About those beauty bugs... in EoZ, Bulma does not look any younger. She has wrinkles around her mouth in every panel she is in, even when her face is at rest; Goku also says that she looks older, of course Bulma replies people tell her that she looks younger. In any case, the drawings of her imply she has not been using any bugs, and that her skin looks older than in the Buu arc.

I guess canon, nowadays, implies fucking over EoZ. Whether it's how long it's been or how they actually look. That, or she never used them. What if Goten and Trunks got ahold of them and that's why they looked so young for so long, combined with the delayed growth spurt of the saiyans?

I wonder if Toyo will try to connect both continuities. Or if he'll just include some hints here and there like he has done before with GT and some Toei-exclusive characters. I think it'll be the latter.

[Melkaniator J]

Daima could be tied to Super, Toyo just needs to think of a reason that Goku hasn't used SS4 since then.

They don't need to be connected, so I don't know why he would bother.

We already know why Vegeta doesn't use SS3

That's a bold claim.

it's Goku's transformation and he doesn't like to copy him

You mean the same way he “copied” SS, SS3 and SSG from Goku? Most likely even SSB, but there's no proof there.

he refused to use the ritual to achieve SSG, he refuses to teleport, and he didn't want to learn Ultra Instinct.

Do we have any proof of this? He literally asked for cooperation form him turning into SSG. Also he wanted UI, he just sucked at it. At least on the anime.

imho, attempting to rationalize a Dragon Ball 'canon' outside of the original manga is a nightmare and not worth the effort...and nobody can give you a definitive answer on anything in that vein, no matter what they say, because Toriyama never said (probably because he really didn't CARE).

Undeniable truth.

the new fan favorites Kuu and Duu

Fan favorites? Maybe in these forums that I haven't visited in years. They were on by fans in many other forums, plus FB and YT. I can even add myself there since I'm disappointed in their designs and thought they were worthless. Everything they did was unnecessary except the very end, and even that could have been better if resolved with Arinsu alone.

I can tell you for a fact that I'll be re-watching Daima anytime I re-watch the original DB & Z. You couldn't pay me to allow Super to abuse my eyes again.

I'm introducing my wife into DB (we're currently on Kuririn's 1st death) and I'll probably skip SUPER in favor of DAIMA. SUPER is way less childish and have some great moments (UI mostly). But DAIMA's art/animation is clearly superior and she'll be making lots of questions that can't be answered in SUPER.

[taikufuru]

People's behavior regarding canon and different continuities after Dragon Ball Daima aired left me astonished. Seriously. Where have you been for the last 40 years?

Dragon Ball Super itself has three continuities.

TV Series

The TV series references events and characters exclusive to the Dragon Ball Z animated adaptation, such as Gregory, Piza, Pirozhki, and Karoni.

Bulma recalls the bizarre body swap with Captain Ginyu.

The Vegeta (child) we see in the series is not the same as the one we saw in the bonus chapter of Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman and Dragon Ball Super: Broly, but is the one present in the Dragon Ball Z TV Special, which is not in line with what we see in the two works mentioned.

On the other hand, episode 73 references the two bandits that Great Saiyaman and Videl arrested in the original manga, moments before the girl discovers the superhero's secret identity. This never happened in the Dragon Ball Z TV series, which is so referenced in Dragon Ball Super.

Promotional Manga Adaptation

The promotional manga adaptation is just as confusing in its references to past works, such as Vegeta's appearance (as a child) also being the same as in the Dragon Ball Z TV Special, a reference to Mount Paozu (the original name to the anime) while also making a point of omitting Gregory.

The Movies

Dragon Ball Super: Broly/Super Hero directly reference events according to the original manga and Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman, omitting any trace of the previous animated series, contradicting the Dragon Ball Super TV series itself, since Freeza saw Goten and Trunks merging in episode 22, but acted strangely towards Gogeta.

Conclusion

After all, which Dragon Ball Super does Dragon Ball Daima connect to or ignore?

My answer is that even though Dragon Ball is a franchise with multiple continuities, it is still the same story, moving in one direction, but told from different points of view.

Dragon Ball will always be an easy-to-digest and accessible story for all audiences, so no matter the continuity, enjoy the story and don't let the smallest details get in the way of your enjoyment.

[Melkaniator J]

no matter the continuity, enjoy the story and don't let the smallest details get in the way of your enjoyment.

I'll enjoy the story if there's something for me to enjoy in it. I know for many is as simple as having “Dragon Ball” in the title, not for me.

Also, I don't think continuity is part of the smallest details. Continuity is what took place, and that's what most care about. I guess you didn't knew that since you said you were “astonished” about it. Most people don't talk about GT for a reason after all. And yet, if Akira had continued the GT storyline, everyone would be talking about it. If DAIMA events are not referenced in DBS, then DAIMA will turn into a new GT (for other reasons it already is even), and fans will start to care less and less about it.

[taikufuru]

Dragon Ball GT is part of the same continuity as Dragon Ball/Z. The three original series are one story.

We don't even know for sure if Dragon Ball Super TV Series is a continuation of the Dragon Ball Z TV series or the original manga, since the references it makes are random.

My point is that Dragon Ball Super has three continuities, but fans seem to treat them as if they were all one.

If Dragon Ball Daima supposedly contradicts the TV series, we can't apply the same to the continuity of the films.

When it suits them, fans who care so much about continuity simply ignore inconsistencies in the series to fit into their subjective idea of canon. The first Dragon Ball Z film is officially part of the continuity of the TV series, even if we find inconsistencies, such as the fact that Krillin knew Gohan and Goku knew about his potential before Raditz arrived. But people seem to pretend it didn't exist simply because they don't like it or use the "filler" label as if it had any official weight.

[Melkaniator J]

Dragon Ball GT is part of the same continuity as Dragon Ball/Z. The three original series are one story.

Like many other anime, DB's manga got adapted with fillers in it. Once you know what's filler and what isn't many things that didn't made sense before start making sense after. It doesn't matter how much filler it adds as long as that knowledge is there.

When it suits them, fans who care so much about continuity simply ignore inconsistencies in the series to fit into their subjective idea of canon.

A fandom consists of many. We will not, as a whole, agree on the same thing as we're not a hive mind. But many of us knew the anime was just an adaptation of the manga, as such inconsistencies in the anime wasn't a big deal. After all, the canon was the manga. Simpler times. It was beautiful.

Now all that matters to them is to deliver sludge after sludge of content. It doesn't matter what's what. And the end result is this joke we have now. We can talk about inconsistencies as is entertaining to have DB discussions, but at the end of the day, the only thing that matters now is to have more content, not the quality of it.

[JulieYBM]

There's plenty of room to do a dozen story arcs connecting Dragon Ball Daima to the beginning of Dragon Ball Super, so I don't think it really matters either way. Come up with a fun story using whatever story elements and character threads that you want to and have fun with it.

[taikufuru]

Dragon Ball GT is part of the same continuity as Dragon Ball/Z. The three original series are one story.

Like many other anime, DB's manga got adapted with fillers in it. Once you know what's filler and what isn't many things that didn't made sense before start making sense after. It doesn't matter how much filler it adds as long as that knowledge is there.

When it suits them, fans who care so much about continuity simply ignore inconsistencies in the series to fit into their subjective idea of canon.

A fandom consists of many. We will not, as a whole, agree on the same thing as we're not a hive mind. But many of us knew the anime was just an adaptation of the manga, as such inconsistencies in the anime wasn't a big deal. After all, the canon was the manga. Simpler times. It was beautiful.

Now all that matters to them is to deliver sludge after sludge of content. It doesn't matter what's what. And the end result is this joke we have now. We can talk about inconsistencies as is entertaining to have DB discussions, but at the end of the day, the only thing that matters now is to have more content, not the quality of it.

There is no official canon. No one has ever gone into detail about this. Akira Toriyama, Shueisha, Toei Animation or Akio Iyoku never officially commented on this. That's what you don't seem to understand, putting personal criteria about what is valid or not above reality.

The original manga is "canon" to itself. Just as the three TV series are "canon" to themselves. They are different and independent media.

It's like saying that Avengers: Age of Ultron is not canon because the villain was created by Tony Stark instead of Ant-Man (as is the case in the comics).

Indeed, filler is a term that exists only among fans. No one from the production team treats these episodes as something disposable.

For example, the Tsufuru-jins seem to not exist in the original manga, while they do exist and are "canon" in Dragon Ball/Z/GT. Don't mix different media and original material with adaptation. They are independent.

[Melkaniator J]

DAIMA and SUPER don't match together. Can they try to connect them? Yeah. Of course. But the best they can do is retcon it horribly.

These days are filled with terrible stories. I'm not just talking about DB. The indifference towards the craft is upsetting. No, I'm not gonna claim DB was a masterpiece in storytelling, but it was so much better.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

These days are filled with terrible stories. I'm not just talking about DB. The indifference towards the craft is upsetting. No, I'm not gonna claim DB was a masterpiece in storytelling, but it was so much better.

Companies are banking on fans supporting the products based on name recognition. Super's anime wouldn't have aired, much less last for 130 episodes if it wasn't for the Dragon Ball name attached to it.

[Melkaniator J]

Companies are banking on fans supporting the products based on name recognition. Super's anime wouldn't have aired, much less last for 130 episodes if it wasn't for the Dragon Ball name attached to it.

I agree 100%

The sad part is that it works wonderfully. The quantity of fans that say “just enjoy it and be grateful, it's more Dragon Ball/Star Wars/MCU/Lord of the Rings content” it's mind boggling.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The quantity of fans that say “just enjoy it and be grateful, it's more Dragon Ball/Star Wars/MCU/Lord of the Rings content” it's mind boggling.

Fans' tolerance for mediocrity plays a big part in why so many franchises have declined over the years. Why would a company put in the effort when fans aren't expecting it ? Thankfully every now and then we still get genuinely good Dragon Ball products like 2013's Battle of Gods movie and more recently Daima, but those are few and far between. It's probably not a coincidence that those two happen to be the ones Toriyama was most involved with.

[taikufuru]

You seem to be suggesting that people who aren't losing sleep over continuity issues should just accept whatever is offered.

This is so stupid because at no point was it said that you shouldn't question anything. In the episode discussion threads, many issues with the execution of Dragon Ball Daima were pointed out, especially the exaggeratedly slow pacing.

The whole point is that some here seem to care more about continuity than the actual story being presented. Kibito and Nahare being fused wouldn't make the series any better paced. Yes, it would be consistent with Dragon Ball Super, but is that all you wanted?

[Benjamin-Simons-91]

The best continuity in case Daima is counted is: Bardock - The Father of Goku -> Dragon Ball (original manga) -> Daima (as it seems less lackluster than Super despite the fact GT handled Super Saiyan 4 better).-> End of Z.

[ZombieVito]

The best continuity in case Daima is counted is: Bardock - The Father of Goku -> Dragon Ball (original manga) -> Daima (as it seems less lackluster than Super despite the fact GT handled Super Saiyan 4 better).-> End of Z.

Doesn't DBS Bardock appear in Daima?

[PhantomSaiyan]

The best continuity in case Daima is counted is: Bardock - The Father of Goku -> Dragon Ball (original manga) -> Daima (as it seems less lackluster than Super despite the fact GT handled Super Saiyan 4 better).-> End of Z.

Doesn't DBS Bardock appear in Daima?

Yes he does


It's clear that ever since toriyama wrote dragonball minus he considers this version of bardock the "canon" one, not that he cared that much about canon but still. Jaco the galactic patrolman which includes db minus is a direct tie in with the dragonball manga so not much room to argue there