Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Mar 06, 2025 7:37 pm

Yeah, I actually like that they took the green hair and made it canon to the manga for Broly. Its supposed to be part of the indicators of him using his LSS form, and now he's using LSS Controlled so it is just right.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Mar 10, 2025 11:49 am

I'm at the middle of a GT rewatch, and something that I have not noticed before, probably because I never cared, was that base Goku's level fluctuates greatly.

At least for the first few adventures, including Planet Ruudo, Goku's base form is barely a step above Trunks'. That whole SS3 level in base is only a thing after they land on M2. Before that, we've seen him go straight to SS vs Redgic or Lejic, and they all take care of the moonmars once Goku leads the way.
Muchi is where things get weird. SS Goku is not doing well vs Muchi, he is being drained and SS Trunks -who just said he should have trained more- casually oneshots Muchi.
Then, for some reason, they fight Ruudo in base form. Everything Goku does in base, Trunks can do too. When Ruudo uses his arms like fans, both stop it with their ki attacks, when that attack flew them away, Goku got sent flying while Trunks was not. It happens the other way too, some tiles were too much for Trunks but not for Goku, even before Ruudo was awakened.

Ruudo, unable to take out base Goku or even land his eye beams, is shown to be weaker than Muchi, who was dominating SS Goku. Weaker than one of his followers.

Then we go to M2, and Rildo is said to be stronger than Buu, doesn't matter which one. And now the base Goku that fights Buu tier characters. But before M2, the writers seemed to have Goku on equal footing as slacker Trunks.
Funnily, enough, after all that Rildo stuff, when it comes to blasting Fetus Baby, they all seem equally strong, same when they have to do that to Rildo. This is the last time base Goku is shown to be on par with others, on Earth he destroys his SS children in base, after that he never underperforms in base again.

In-universe, I guess this means Goku has been unlocking his full potential as the adventure went on. Slowly getting his grove back the more he fights. Out-of-universe, probably related to the writers not knowing where to take the story, having an OP MC probably meant boring adventure stories, but once they set themselves out for more action, they lifted the nerf on Goku.

If I were to rank the characters so far:

M2 Planet scaling
SS Goku - Metal Rildo
HM Rildo
Base Goku
General Rildo
Buu
Mega Cannon Sygma


Pre-M2 planet
Buu
SS Goku- Muchi -SS Trunks
Redic
Base Goku -Base Trunks -Ruudo
Pan
Muchi Mochi
Moonmars
Bonpara Bros.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Mar 11, 2025 4:34 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 11:49 am I'm at the middle of a GT rewatch, and something that I have not noticed before, probably because I never cared, was that base Goku's level fluctuates greatly.

At least for the first few adventures, including Planet Ruudo, Goku's base form is barely a step above Trunks'. That whole SS3 level in base is only a thing after they land on M2. Before that, we've seen him go straight to SS vs Redgic or Lejic, and they all take care of the moonmars once Goku leads the way.
Muchi is where things get weird. SS Goku is not doing well vs Muchi, he is being drained and SS Trunks -who just said he should have trained more- casually oneshots Muchi.
Then, for some reason, they fight Ruudo in base form. Everything Goku does in base, Trunks can do too. When Ruudo uses his arms like fans, both stop it with their ki attacks, when that attack flew them away, Goku got sent flying while Trunks was not. It happens the other way too, some tiles were too much for Trunks but not for Goku, even before Ruudo was awakened.

Ruudo, unable to take out base Goku or even land his eye beams, is shown to be weaker than Muchi, who was dominating SS Goku. Weaker than one of his followers.

Then we go to M2, and Rildo is said to be stronger than Buu, doesn't matter which one. And now the base Goku that fights Buu tier characters. But before M2, the writers seemed to have Goku on equal footing as slacker Trunks.
Funnily, enough, after all that Rildo stuff, when it comes to blasting Fetus Baby, they all seem equally strong, same when they have to do that to Rildo. This is the last time base Goku is shown to be on par with others, on Earth he destroys his SS children in base, after that he never underperforms in base again.

In-universe, I guess this means Goku has been unlocking his full potential as the adventure went on. Slowly getting his grove back the more he fights. Out-of-universe, probably related to the writers not knowing where to take the story, having an OP MC probably meant boring adventure stories, but once they set themselves out for more action, they lifted the nerf on Goku.

If I were to rank the characters so far:

M2 Planet scaling
SS Goku - Metal Rildo
HM Rildo
Base Goku
General Rildo
Buu
Mega Cannon Sygma


Pre-M2 planet
Buu
SS Goku- Muchi -SS Trunks
Redic
Base Goku -Base Trunks -Ruudo
Pan
Muchi Mochi
Moonmars
Bonpara Bros.
Yeah that's where 90% of the "GT has bad scaling" accusations come from. I've seen multiple theories that try to explain this - Goku is holding back, not accostumed to the body until M2, he got stronger by fighting, Trunks got a zenkai from Redjic... Pick your choice. Personally I think Goku was suppressed to Trunks' level. Toei did this a lot with DBS Goku too.

IMO the real headache - that strangely I can't find much about it online - is base Goku holding off SSJ Gohan and base Gohan holding off SSJ Goten. That'd mean Goku is 50x50x50 = 125,000x stronger than Goten and Trunks. Could he have held back that much in these first episodes? Doubt it.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Mar 11, 2025 5:42 pm

I've seen a new argument for how strong Super Saiyan 4 is by a powerscaling YouTuber named Lonk's Takes. This was taken from his video talking about why GT Goku vs Goku Black is not a close fight.
Annnnnnnyways, tell me how you would interpret SSJ4's multiplier, based on the feats and statements from GT. Give your thoughts!

So the general idea he relays in his video is that SSJ3 GT Goku = Baby Vegeta, but Goku loses due to stamina drain. Then Baby Vegeta goes into Super Baby 1, his version of SSJ2, and states that he's obtained the greatest Saiyan power. Goku corroborates what Baby says, saying it's the strongest ki he's ever felt. Meaning that he surpassed Super Vegetto. Baby transforms further into Super Baby 2, his version of SSJ3, making him 8x SSJ3 Goku. Goku goes Golden Oozaru and starts whooping Baby's ass, even though it's just SSJ + Oozaru. That potential 500x boost is not enough to surpass Baby, that'd take a 3,000x multiplier. However, this version of Golden Oozaru was stated to awaken Goku's "dormant power" in the subtitles by Baby.

Now, when he goes SSJ4, he whoops Baby's ass with a fraction of his power, but when Baby goes Golden Oozaru as well, he manages to surpass Goku. So we can say that was a 10x multiplier from his previous state. SSJ4 Goku eventually beats Baby with Oob's help. In conclusion, Lonk's believes that at the end of the day, Super Saiyan 4 shouldn't be more than 10x stronger than this special Golden Oozaru form. TL;DR, SSJ4 = 30,000 or 40,000x base.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:00 pm

I don't think it's that large, unless you take FPSS4 into account.

Goku - 1
-- SS3: 400
-- GO: 500
---- Limits unlocked: 5.000?
-- SS4: 5.000
-- FPSS4: 50.000

Baby (who's already in Super Saiyan): 550
-- SBV1: 1.100
-- SBV2: 4.400
-- GO: 5.500

Goku says Baby is equal to SS3 but he gets toyed with, stamina drain or not. So Baby is already stronger. Baby also states Goku didn't get any stronger from getting his tail back.

I think the standard x500 for Golden Oozaru, and SS4 being GOx10 works fine. The only real hiccup is Goku’s Golden Oozaru BP being so low compared to Baby, but the Perfect Files does state Goku’s was unnaturally stronger than normal - I wouldn’t be surprised if it's just SS4's BP without the self-control. Meanwhile, Baby's BPs are much more coherent if the gaps between GO Baby > SS4 Goku > SBV2 aren't that huge. There's a clear power difference but they aren't one shotting each other.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:51 pm

SBV2 is essentially a Tufflized SS3 Vegeta. He was already stronger than SS3 Goku as a SS, before even going into SBV2.
Golden Ozaru would use the full power of SS which is SS3, meaning it would be 400x10 at minimum. From there it continues to grow in power as Pan pointed out.

Baby then goes into a Tufflized Golden Great Ape form. Normal SS4's power would be at minimum something like 32,000 and that isn't including the SS4FP. SS4 is also a Potential Unleashing form, so it would be even stronger for users like Gohan and Broly.

Baby Vegeta is a SS, he becomes SBV2 making him 8x stronger minimum, then Great Ape makes that x10.

Baby Vegeta was still stronger than SS3 Goku. This is where 80x over SS3 for SS4 comes from.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:10 am

I don't know why folks insist GO is SS3x10. It's a Super Saiyan Oozaru. Not a Super Saiyan 3 Oozaru. 50x10 = 500, and it allows for the Golden Oozaru to still be stronger than SS3 as shown. As we also saw, the difference between SBV2, SS4 Goku and GO Baby isn't that large, they're all somewhat relative to each other which fits enough with the small gap between SS3 (SBV2) and GO.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Mar 12, 2025 6:13 am

Yuji wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:10 am I don't know why folks insist GO is SS3x10. It's a Super Saiyan Oozaru. Not a Super Saiyan 3 Oozaru. 50x10 = 500, and it allows for the Golden Oozaru to still be stronger than SS3 as shown. As we also saw, the difference between SBV2, SS4 Goku and GO Baby isn't that large, they're all somewhat relative to each other which fits enough with the small gap between SS3 (SBV2) and GO.
It's simple logic and common sense. If you're in an uncontrolled state like oozaru is, why wouldn't you let out all the power you can?

And , to be precise, sbv2 was forced to run and hide against golden oozaru, thing that wouldn't be supposed from the scaling if GO was just a x500 boost over base. If this was the case, sbv2 could simply go and punch it to subdue it easily

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Mar 12, 2025 8:12 am

p-hyvo wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 6:13 am
Yuji wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:10 am I don't know why folks insist GO is SS3x10. It's a Super Saiyan Oozaru. Not a Super Saiyan 3 Oozaru. 50x10 = 500, and it allows for the Golden Oozaru to still be stronger than SS3 as shown. As we also saw, the difference between SBV2, SS4 Goku and GO Baby isn't that large, they're all somewhat relative to each other which fits enough with the small gap between SS3 (SBV2) and GO.
It's simple logic and common sense. If you're in an uncontrolled state like oozaru is, why wouldn't you let out all the power you can?

And , to be precise, sbv2 was forced to run and hide against golden oozaru, thing that wouldn't be supposed from the scaling if GO was just a x500 boost over base. If this was the case, sbv2 could simply go and punch it to subdue it easily
The Perfect Files state Goku's hidden power was unleashed in his Oozaru state. That can refer to the transformation itself, but it can also refer to the fact it was stronger than a normal GO would be.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:02 pm

It makes zero sense that GGA would be less than SS3's power x10. Goku already had SS3 and as a GGA his power was going out of control higher and higher and Pan pointed out he his Ki was getting higher and higher. SS4 is what was compared to having ones Potential Unleashed.

Not to mention it was already explained that SS2 and SS3 are just powered up versions of SS and not something separate. Only SS4 was said to be separate and was called SS4 out of convenience.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:05 pm

p-hyvo wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 6:13 am
Yuji wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:10 am I don't know why folks insist GO is SS3x10. It's a Super Saiyan Oozaru. Not a Super Saiyan 3 Oozaru. 50x10 = 500, and it allows for the Golden Oozaru to still be stronger than SS3 as shown. As we also saw, the difference between SBV2, SS4 Goku and GO Baby isn't that large, they're all somewhat relative to each other which fits enough with the small gap between SS3 (SBV2) and GO.
It's simple logic and common sense. If you're in an uncontrolled state like oozaru is, why wouldn't you let out all the power you can?

And , to be precise, sbv2 was forced to run and hide against golden oozaru, thing that wouldn't be supposed from the scaling if GO was just a x500 boost over base. If this was the case, sbv2 could simply go and punch it to subdue it easily
Exactly. SS Baby Vegeta was somewhat stronger than SS3 Goku. BV then got 8x stronger at minimum for SBV2. It is impossible for GGA to only be a 500x boost.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Mar 13, 2025 2:58 am

Yuji wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 8:12 am
p-hyvo wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 6:13 am
Yuji wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:10 am I don't know why folks insist GO is SS3x10. It's a Super Saiyan Oozaru. Not a Super Saiyan 3 Oozaru. 50x10 = 500, and it allows for the Golden Oozaru to still be stronger than SS3 as shown. As we also saw, the difference between SBV2, SS4 Goku and GO Baby isn't that large, they're all somewhat relative to each other which fits enough with the small gap between SS3 (SBV2) and GO.
It's simple logic and common sense. If you're in an uncontrolled state like oozaru is, why wouldn't you let out all the power you can?

And , to be precise, sbv2 was forced to run and hide against golden oozaru, thing that wouldn't be supposed from the scaling if GO was just a x500 boost over base. If this was the case, sbv2 could simply go and punch it to subdue it easily
The Perfect Files state Goku's hidden power was unleashed in his Oozaru state. That can refer to the transformation itself, but it can also refer to the fact it was stronger than a normal GO would be.
You literally didn't contradict anything I said, if anything you confirmed my point. It simply makes no sense to think that you wouldn't use all of your power uncontrollably in a berserker state like oozaru is

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 13, 2025 9:58 am

I think the idea that SS4 and Golden Oozaru have different multipliers isn’t necessary. It makes more sense if both transformations grant roughly a 10x increase, with SS4’s real advantage being the retention of reason, technique, and refined combat skills, something Golden Oozaru lacks. If we assume raw power alone, there’s no direct reason to place them on separate levels.

Regarding Baby Vegeta’s transformations, while they may seem to parallel the Super Saiyan stages, they happened in the context of him absorbing power from others. So, they don’t necessarily function as traditional Super Saiyan power-ups. That said, maybe we could see scenarios where Baby’s transformations end up rivaling different levels of an adult Goku. Super Baby Vegeta rivaling SS2 Adult Goku, Super Baby 2 rivaling SS3 Adult Goku, since when Baby becomes Golden Oozaru, he competes with both Golden Oozaru Goku and SS4.

Additionally, I think Golden Oozaru temporarily negated the Dragon Balls’ magic that reverted Goku to a child. If that’s the case, any power increase from the transformation should be measured against his full-grown adult potential, not just Kid Goku’s. That would likely mean a 10x increase from SS3 Adult Goku. But since we don’t have a precise measure of how much weaker Goku was as a kid, determining an exact multiplier is tricky.

However, if we assume Kid Goku had access to roughly 1/10th of his full-grown strength, then SS4 could effectively be around a 100x increase from SS3 Kid Goku. This would line up with SS4 being a significant power jump, while still fitting within the idea that it’s a refined and controlled version of Golden Oozaru rather than a completely separate multiplier.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:01 am

Maybe we can work out the nerf Goku got. There are reasons to believe it was significant.

His base form is shown to overcome Uub's super ki blast, when the show starts.
Something Vegeta Baby also did. Uub could be stronger than in episode 1, sure, but how much stronger training on his own at home?

It seems SS3 kid Goku caps at Vegeta Baby 1, while his adult base form can outpower somebody that was able to push back, for a moment, Baby's strongest form.
This could mean Adult SS3 Goku would be as strong or even stronger than SVB2, and SS4 being 10x that. Although, it would be a much bigger boost if we factor Goku as a kid.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:30 pm

SSJ4 being roughly 100x SSJ3 is a very common take. Oozaru was always called the true power of the Saiyans, so by no means 10x is contradicted here, pretty much every form is suggested to unlock hidden power. Regardless of whether it’s 10x SSJ3 or 10x SSJ + power up (Since Pan said his power was still rising), Goku is beating around someone at least 8x stronger than his SSJ3 power.

I like the idea of SSJ4 just being Golden Oozaru’s power under control and condensed into a human body, but I don’t think that flows well with SSJ4 Goku = Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta. If Baby has the strongest “base”, he’d be stronger in equivalent forms…
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:01 am Maybe we can work out the nerf Goku got. There are reasons to believe it was significant.

His base form is shown to overcome Uub's super ki blast, when the show starts.
Something Vegeta Baby also did. Uub could be stronger than in episode 1, sure, but how much stronger training on his own at home?

It seems SS3 kid Goku caps at Vegeta Baby 1, while his adult base form can outpower somebody that was able to push back, for a moment, Baby's strongest form.
This could mean Adult SS3 Goku would be as strong or even stronger than SVB2, and SS4 being 10x that. Although, it would be a much bigger boost if we factor Goku as a kid.
You might be confusing GT with Daima, GT Goku didn’t lose power. Or if he did he quickly regained it since he still fights a Boo-level opponent in base.

Oob said he’d been training all this time. How strong he was? As strong as the plot needs. IIRC he didn’t to particulary well ever after fusing with Boo, though.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:44 pm

I guess Golden Oozaru can start at a baseline of x500 and keep rising up to x5000, which when controlled, leads to SS4. Goku's Ki kept rising throughout, it didn't seem static.

Because Vegeta's body was corrupted by Tsufruian genes, his Golden Oozaru stayed at the base x500. Baby was in full control of the form and didn't manifest SS4, which suggests it was not a typical Golden Oozaru transformation and perhaps not as strong.

Goku: 1
-- SS: 50
-- SS3: 400
-- GO: starts at 500, keeps rising to 5.000 until it leads to full control of the primal mind, or the user's demise
-- SS4: 5.000, full extent of Golden Oozaru power controlled
-- FPSS4: 50.000 (SS4x10 going by the Shadow Dragon scaling later on)

Baby ("base"): 11
-- SS: 550
-- SBV1: 1.100
-- SBV2: 4.400
-- GO: 5.500

If you think about it, before Goku and Vegeta, the previous "legendary Super Saiyan" (Golden Oozaru) would only have been used to a x50 boost from Super Saiyan. Another x10, rising to x100, boost on top of it suddenly would no doubt destroy their body.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 13, 2025 5:31 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:30 pm
You might be confusing GT with Daima, GT Goku didn’t lose power. Or if he did he quickly regained it since he still fights a Boo-level opponent in base.

Oob said he’d been training all this time. How strong he was? As strong as the plot needs. IIRC he didn’t to particulary well ever after fusing with Boo, though.
This makes no sense. Goku definitely lost power as a kid, as slowly got some of it back as the show progresses and indicates clearly.
Never was it said that Goku finally got his true, adult power back, him being still stronger than the rest(including Buu) is just the rest being weaker as they were many times said to be. And Goku being incredibly OP.

Uub struggled(and lost, perhaps as he got outblasted) with adult base Goku, and then stood up (and lost) to a suppressed? Baby's 3rd form, while SS3 Kid Goku was a joke to Baby's 1st form. You are implying Uub got +400x stronger in one year training with cows and sheeps lol, a bigger boost than fusing with Buu. He would then have more potential than Goku. GT proves that was not the case.
There is only one way out of this, that's Adult Base Goku being at least as strong as Vegeta Baby. With Baby arc Uub being now stronger than base Goku only, after one year. At most, stronger than adult SS Goku.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 13, 2025 6:32 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 5:31 pm This makes no sense. Goku definitely lost power as a kid, as slowly got some of it back as the show progresses and indicates clearly.
Really? I thought that was just a theory to explain why he seems weak in the first episodes.
He would then have more potential than Goku.
But he does. That's the whole reason Goku asked for Boo to be revived. As a kid with literally no training he was already a match to base Goku. I find it odd that he was still base Goku level when GT starts, but the Baby fight gives him his due. Just reaching here, but maybe Goku was transformed, but since we only see the end he was already too tired?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 13, 2025 7:55 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 6:32 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 5:31 pm This makes no sense. Goku definitely lost power as a kid, as slowly got some of it back as the show progresses and indicates clearly.
Really? I thought that was just a theory to explain why he seems weak in the first episodes.
He would then have more potential than Goku.
But he does. That's the whole reason Goku asked for Boo to be revived. As a kid with literally no training he was already a match to base Goku. I find it odd that he was still base Goku level when GT starts, but the Baby fight gives him his due. Just reaching here, but maybe Goku was transformed, but since we only see the end he was already too tired?
Goku drops out of SS4 and can't use shunkankido without Piccolo giving him a boost. That's a testament that he is not at his real level even after unlocking SS4.

Uub's potential was just a Toriyama thing. GT goes to town showing how Goku is even more capable than Uub merged with Mr. Buu, not just Uub alone.

It is possible that there was more to that initial fight, but seeing how base Goku overpowered Uub, I don't see how he could've done that while tired. But if they chose to show Goku fighting Uub in base then most likely that's what they were going for.
Goku as a kid is seen fighting Rildo in base form, so it shouldn't come as surprise that his adult version could do even more than that.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Perfect Cell » Fri Mar 14, 2025 6:38 pm

Mr Perfect Cell wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 11:40 pm Power levels Z updated + 90% of Movies

Edit: I thought there was a edit feature on here? Maybe because I'm using my phone this time? Anyways made a little adjustment to the Fusion arc

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