Unpopular DB opinions

[JulieYBM]

DB can do plenty tonally. I'd like to see Goku be less exaggerated than he was in Super, but I'd hate to think the way to do something different is boring world building like in Daima.

I have yet to watch Daima so maybe the execution is better than it sounds but the whole "Namekians are actually from the demon realm" just sounds like a completely pointless addition to the lore.

Like I guess Piccolo no longer being a mazoku after his rebirth doesn't mean anything because all Namekians are technically majin...I guess?

Maybe not the best comparison, but I think Ali's point still stands that the franchise has done plenty of great stuff divorced from Toriyama's work. The first Dragon Ball Z movie, some of the expansion of characters and story via filler (more so in the original Dragon Ball). I'm not a big fan of his but obviously Broli is another iconic character that wouldn't exist if Toei stuck only what Toriyama gave them.

I would have been fine with the franchise ending in 1995 (or 1988 depending on my mood) but I'm glad GT exist for people who enjoyed it and gave fans a more satisfying conclusion if they felt cold by Toriyama's ending, even if I disagree 100 percent.

And there's plenty to like about Super even if a lot of Super is rocky and it does feel overall safe and corporate.

As the resident bisexual girlypop, I have to yet again opine about how Toriyama would have never given us Kale and Caulifla and their pretty clearly Sapphic relationship. Or hell, just featured them with character arcs of their own, like with Caulifla trying to surpass Gokuu and Kale trying to get Caulifla to notice her. Nor would we have gotten the homoerotic gay stuff going on between Zamasu and Gokuu Black.

For all the issues I had with Super, Caulifla and Kale will always be great additions.

And I like that Caulifla is basically lesbian Goku as a street tough instead of a country bumpkin. No manners, no real respect for her elders and just really wants to be the best versions of herself as a fighter

Hell yeah! I really love how she just rubs up against Gokuu—a pillar within the series' framework—and has no problem saying "Fuck you, I can beat you!" She and Kale would make for a hell of a spin-off series, I'd argue. These girls kick ass and have a different dynamic that ties them together, which would be very refreshing.

[LoganForkHands73]

I know we like to think of Toriyama as always undercutting stuff with jokes but lets not forget the Piccolo Daimao, Saiyan, and Freeza arcs are fairly grim and tension filled. We see children murdered. not sure what you all think is being prevented from happening by trying to keep things in the spirit of Toriyama.

DB can do plenty tonally. I'd like to see Goku be less exaggerated than he was in Super, but I'd hate to think the way to do something different is boring world building like in Daima.

Toriyama was excellent at balancing tone in the original run, especially in those arcs you mentioned. He could create real tension, pathos, and yes, even a bit of sentimentality. The ending of the Piccolo Jr. arc is a great example. He preferred being goofy and irreverent, but he seemed better at keeping his comedic impulses in check back then, perhaps due to more editorial oversight. With the modern material, he was apparently much more concerned with shoehorning in jokes.

[GurixDr34]

Humans should be more relevant and receive some Powerup to become useful again characters like Tenshinhan Krillin Yamcha Roshi should not be forgotten they were an important part during the history of the first Dragonball

King Piccolo is the best Dragonball Villain much better than Frieza

I would like to see a future Villain where he puts in danger the Multiverses perhaps ending with Beerus Whis Zeno Sama i want to feel the drama and the tension of Z again in future Super projects

If Chi-Chi had not become Goku Wife i feel that Sno from the original Dragonball would have been a good partner for Goku in fact i dont like how characters from the old Dragon Ball like Sno Android 8 or Upa have been forgotten i liked their cameos in GT

I would like to see Raditz to return he is Goku brother and i feel like there is a lot to explore with him

[WittyUsername]

I know we like to think of Toriyama as always undercutting stuff with jokes but lets not forget the Piccolo Daimao, Saiyan, and Freeza arcs are fairly grim and tension filled. We see children murdered. not sure what you all think is being prevented from happening by trying to keep things in the spirit of Toriyama.

DB can do plenty tonally. I'd like to see Goku be less exaggerated than he was in Super, but I'd hate to think the way to do something different is boring world building like in Daima.

Toriyama was excellent at balancing tone in the original run, especially in those arcs you mentioned. He could create real tension, pathos, and yes, even a bit of sentimentality. The ending of the Piccolo Jr. arc is a great example. He preferred being goofy and irreverent, but he seemed better at keeping his comedic impulses in check back then, perhaps due to more editorial oversight. With the modern material, he was apparently much more concerned with shoehorning in jokes.

In terms of modern Dragon Ball material, Toriyama supposedly had more freedom when it came to Daima than he did with Super, and the show certainly doesn’t take itself seriously. Even the villain is largely played for laughs, which is a huge contrast from someone like Zamasu.

[Scsigs]

I think I prefer GT’s ending to the original Toriyama ending because beyond its finality, you actually develop a sense that the world itself has moved on from Goku and friends. That they are relics of a different time and the fruits of Goku’s efforts are felt in an everlasting sense, that’s its timeless.
It genuinely feels like the end of Goku’s story and any subsequent material (Like a Heroes legacy) would have to start from scratch with different characters and a different world than the one we remember.

Like that’s a real ending, its cathartic and its conclusive. EOZ does not feel like the end of Goku’s story to me, the arrival of Oob feels like it’s supposed to be reflective of how Goku is embracing his responsibility as a martial artist to ensure the next generation of fighters are ready to carry the torch forward but it never really hits that way. It plays more like Goku is bored and is looking for the next opportunity to give him some excitement in life.

Toriyama's ending from the manga is keeping in the spirit of the series & Goku's nature, which is that you go on living & experience new things in life. It's not about setting up the next generation, it's about the next chapter in Goku's story. It's an open-ended thing that leaves the reader with the sense that their favorite characters are ok & they're just going on living life. And if there's a future problem, they're gonna meet it head-on. And unlike, say, JK Rowling's ending for Harry Potter, it doesn't feel like nothing got accomplished to change anything in the world for the better.
I can't fault you for thinking it's about Goku setting up the next generation, as part of the Buu Arc was specifically about that, but that doesn't stop me from pointing out that you did read into it wrong, sorry.

As for GT's ending, it definitely feels like a cohesive ending, which it mostly is. However, it also leaves some things open ended & up to interpretation. Watching Team Four Star's series of videos on GT & its ending, I learned through Kaiser talking about it that some people interpret part of what happens as Goku dying to Omega Shenron, which explains how he becomes invulnerable to Omega's remaining attacks as well as what happens with him going off with regular Shenron after Omega's defeated. Which, I feel has its own problems since it doesn't make much sense that Goku would become invulnerable to Omega's attacks when he charges up the Spirit Bomb, he doesn't have a halo, & he doesn't teleport to Other World as a result of dying. However, everything that comes after is a nice send-off to the characters & the world of DB. And the epilogue with Goku Jr. & Vegeta Jr. 100 years later to show that the world is ok is also an ok touch. Though it also leaves off on a bit of a open-ended feel with Goku showing up grown up again in a weird ghost-type presence.
Also, this is a discrepancy that isn't helped by the US DVD release placing it at the end of the series, but A Hero's Legacy was originally made & aired right after the Baby Arc ended. It's partly why the epilogue features old Pan & Goku Jr. It's a cap off to them as shown in that special. It's not technically meant to be watched after you're done watching GT. You can, but that's not the proper production order.

[MasenkoHA]

The more I think about it the more I think I actually enjoy the Artificial Human and Boo arc over Namek at least in the anime. A reread of the manga might flip flop my opinion but as far as the anime is concerned the latter two arcs were just more enjoyable

Freeza as a villain is fine but I like Cell and Boo better. I enjoyed the character beats of the latter two arcs more as well and Namek as a whole was a boring location.

[Scsigs]

The more I think about it the more I think I actually enjoy the Artificial Human and Boo arc over Namek at least in the anime. A reread of the manga might flip flop my opinion but as far as the anime is concerned the latter two arcs were just more enjoyable

Freeza as a villain is fine but I like Cell and Boo better. I enjoyed the character beats of the latter two arcs more as well and Namek as a whole was a boring location.

I can see that. In terms of what's different between them, Namek has the unfortunate fate of feeling samey throughout. Especially since Namek's a bit dull in design since there's not a lot to it. The Android & Buu Arcs have a lot more going to them & a lot more moving parts outside of the fights, as well as more diverse personalities of the antagonists.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I like the look of Namek, it was also innovative for its time as it was the first time Dragon Ball had am adventure on another planet. Its fun throughout, and the payoff with the fight against Freeza is a high point for the series for sure.

Conversely, I find the artificial humans arc drags and doesn't really get good until our heroes start fighting Semi-Perfect Cell. Cell overall is also a much blander villain than Freeza or even Boo.

The Boo arc, I can understand people's issues with it but I like the unpredictability, and how it takes Dragon Ball back to its gag roots. The Earth all helping to defeat Boo was also a great payoff after the long journey Goku had been on up to that point.

[dragonballhero]

My unpopular opinion is that GT's ending is very overrated. You often hear people say "GT sucked but it has a good ending and ssj4"

I don't think GT's ending is appropriate for Dragon Ball's tone at all. It feels like the ending to a different show altogether. Goku deciding to fuck off with the dragon abandoning everyone makes no sense and it always rubbed me the wrong way. Him going off with uub in end of z is not comparable at all because he can still teleport back to his family whenever he wants, and it's implied that he won't be gone forever. Besides, we have that neko majin panel with uub living in the Son family house, so you know he didn't just cut everyone out of his life. And his motivation makes sense with his character, training a strong ally not only is in line with his fight junkie mentality, but it also allows him to complete his character arc from martial arts student to martial arts master.

In GT however he decides for no reason at all that he'd rather abandon his friends and family FOREVER and in favor of what exactly? Who fucking knows, chilling with the dragon I guess. It feels like a very artificial choice, like they wanted to write something dramatic for the sake of it but they failed in coming up with any kind of logical reasoning as to why would goku do that in the first place.
Him being in the tournament where goku jr and vegeta jr fought is even more puzzling. So he can walk around in the world and interact with people... So why exactly did he wait until his granddaughter was an old woman to do that?

The goofy and carefree attitude of end of z is exactly the type of finale a show like dragonball needs, you can tell toriyama wrote it because he would never write a gt-style ending.

Honestly, it always kind of bums me out that so many folks are so big on the melodramatic endings of DB. I mean this and the Cell arc's ending are such bittersweet endings that I just can't jive with them at all.

I mentioned this in another thread, but post-EoZ? I simply like to look at DB as Neko Majin being THE final sighting of Goku and his loved ones after he meets Uub. Mostly because it makes the most sense, given Goku's ability to teleport AND fly almost as fast as the speed of sound. He could literally have everything he wants and more, so it's nice to see Toriyama being aware of that.

[MasenkoHA]

The more I think about it the more I think I actually enjoy the Artificial Human and Boo arc over Namek at least in the anime. A reread of the manga might flip flop my opinion but as far as the anime is concerned the latter two arcs were just more enjoyable

Freeza as a villain is fine but I like Cell and Boo better. I enjoyed the character beats of the latter two arcs more as well and Namek as a whole was a boring location.

I can see that. In terms of what's different between them, Namek has the unfortunate fate of feeling samey throughout. Especially since Namek's a bit dull in design since there's not a lot to it. The Android & Buu Arcs have a lot more going to them & a lot more moving parts outside of the fights, as well as more diverse personalities of the antagonists.

Yes, exactly. I understand why Namek is so bland but it doesn't make for an interesting location until the planet is going to hell.


Freeza is fine as a smug businessman tyrant but Cell has more of an interesting concept and way better designs throughout his transformations.

And Boo..sorry y'all it's next to impossible to top a bubblegum genie that turns people into candy.

I like the look of Namek, it was also innovative for its time as it was the first time Dragon Ball had am adventure on another planet.

In concept, sure. But the design of Namek is so monotonous and bland The locations we see in the first arc and Red Ribbon are just way more interesting.

And I get it. We traded in memorable backgrounds for more dynamic fights. There's a reason the tournament grounds get destroyed for the last big fight. It's a weekly comic and I don't fault Toriyama at all. But I do wish the anime with multiple people working on it and like 4 month lead time could have diverged and made Namek more of an interesting location beyond a 2 episode arc of a fake out.

[WittyUsername]

I can’t say I agree with the idea that Cell is a better villain than Freeza. He loses pretty much everything interesting about him once he starts transforming.

[ABED]

I wouldn't call Namek bland. The problem is that it's just the same thing for far too long. It would've been nice to have some sense of scale and distance. Also, how does anyone navigate their way around such a planet? At least if you are adept at sensing ki, you can head towards a target, but how about when Goku defeats Freeza and flies to Freeza's ship. He has an amazing sense of direction that he remembers where it is even while fighting on a planet he's only been on for a few hours. It's also falling apart.

[tonysoprano300]

I think I prefer GT’s ending to the original Toriyama ending because beyond its finality, you actually develop a sense that the world itself has moved on from Goku and friends. That they are relics of a different time and the fruits of Goku’s efforts are felt in an everlasting sense, that’s its timeless.
It genuinely feels like the end of Goku’s story and any subsequent material (Like a Heroes legacy) would have to start from scratch with different characters and a different world than the one we remember.

Like that’s a real ending, its cathartic and its conclusive. EOZ does not feel like the end of Goku’s story to me, the arrival of Oob feels like it’s supposed to be reflective of how Goku is embracing his responsibility as a martial artist to ensure the next generation of fighters are ready to carry the torch forward but it never really hits that way. It plays more like Goku is bored and is looking for the next opportunity to give him some excitement in life.

Toriyama's ending from the manga is keeping in the spirit of the series & Goku's nature, which is that you go on living & experience new things in life. It's not about setting up the next generation, it's about the next chapter in Goku's story. It's an open-ended thing that leaves the reader with the sense that their favorite characters are ok & they're just going on living life. And if there's a future problem, they're gonna meet it head-on. And unlike, say, JK Rowling's ending for Harry Potter, it doesn't feel like nothing got accomplished to change anything in the world for the better.
I can't fault you for thinking it's about Goku setting up the next generation, as part of the Buu Arc was specifically about that, but that doesn't stop me from pointing out that you did read into it wrong, sorry.

As for GT's ending, it definitely feels like a cohesive ending, which it mostly is. However, it also leaves some things open ended & up to interpretation. Watching Team Four Star's series of videos on GT & its ending, I learned through Kaiser talking about it that some people interpret part of what happens as Goku dying to Omega Shenron, which explains how he becomes invulnerable to Omega's remaining attacks as well as what happens with him going off with regular Shenron after Omega's defeated. Which, I feel has its own problems since it doesn't make much sense that Goku would become invulnerable to Omega's attacks when he charges up the Spirit Bomb, he doesn't have a halo, & he doesn't teleport to Other World as a result of dying. However, everything that comes after is a nice send-off to the characters & the world of DB. And the epilogue with Goku Jr. & Vegeta Jr. 100 years later to show that the world is ok is also an ok touch. Though it also leaves off on a bit of a open-ended feel with Goku showing up grown up again in a weird ghost-type presence.
Also, this is a discrepancy that isn't helped by the US DVD release placing it at the end of the series, but A Hero's Legacy was originally made & aired right after the Baby Arc ended. It's partly why the epilogue features old Pan & Goku Jr. It's a cap off to them as shown in that special. It's not technically meant to be watched after you're done watching GT. You can, but that's not the proper production order.

Sure, I'm not saying EOZ is bad or tonally inconsistent.There is a lot to like about it, but it just doesn’t feel like an ending to me. In a weird way, it feels like it’s setting up another adventure. Like its so much easier to continue past EOZ without significantly changing the status quo whereas it would be much harder to do that with GT’s ending. Its just a preference but to me I prefer “Goku and friends have left a legacy, their influence will be felt long after they are gone” to “Goku and friends will always be ready and excited for the next adventure”

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that a Hero’s Legacy came out after GT. I was more so making a point about subsequent DB material would have to be of that same ilk, a story where Goku and friends are no longer the focal point.

I think whatever happened with Shenron and Goku is left intentionally ambiguous, I don’t think Goku died but I also don’t think he was alive in the traditional sense. Personally I like it, it’s mystical and arguably nonsensical but totally cathartic. Maybe I'm just a sucker for ambiguity. Oddly spiritual for sure

[Scsigs]

Sure, I'm not saying EOZ is bad or tonally inconsistent.There is a lot to like about it, but it just doesn’t feel like an ending to me. In a weird way, it feels like it’s setting up another adventure. Like its so much easier to continue past EOZ without significantly changing the status quo whereas it would be much harder to do that with GT’s ending. Its just a preference but to me I prefer “Goku and friends have left a legacy, their influence will be felt long after they are gone” to “Goku and friends will always be ready and excited for the next adventure”

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that a Hero’s Legacy came out after GT. I was more so making a point about subsequent DB material would have to be of that same ilk, a story where Goku and friends are no longer the focal point.

I think whatever happened with Shenron and Goku is left intentionally ambiguous, I don’t think Goku died but I also don’t think he was alive in the traditional sense. Personally I like it, it’s mystical and arguably nonsensical but totally cathartic. Maybe I'm just a sucker for ambiguity. Oddly spiritual for sure

I mean, I prefer a tonally-consistent ending that's in-keeping with the spirit of the series than one that's kinda confusing & a bit of a downer. And, I don't think that it's the start of a new adventure. It's just kinda business as usual. I'll agree that without the Uub stuff the ending of Z would feel a bit better like the ending of GT does for you, but it's the ending Toriyama chose. He left the characters in a good spot & it doesn't feel like there's any stones left unturned from what was in the story at the time. We followed Goku through 20+ years of his life, his friends, his family, explored the world, & even went to space & the afterlife. It's a complete journey with its ups & downs from start to finish.
GT's ending feels less like we went on a journey with the characters, so much as they knew the writing was on the wall for the series & came up with it to wrap the series up, IMO. It has a LOT in common with Z's ending. It's just that it plays certain elements differently & drops others. It's like the GT writers thought they could do certain aspects of Z's ending better. And, I think that some people like GT's ending better than Z's because of the anime adaptation. From what I remember from the end of MistareFusion's retrospective on the Z anime, the anime cut a lot of the diegetic elements from the manga, partly because GT had been greenlit by Toei by then & they knew that the next week, they'd be airing a new series that takes place years after it, so they didn't need to. Why put diegetic elements in the ending of a series if you're gonna have a new sequel series out the next week? For the anime, it's not the end yet. Meanwhile, the manga had a shot of all the characters with text saying "The end," a letter from Toriyama thanking everyone who read the manga for doing so, & other things. Now, some of these would probably be tough to adapt into the anime, but that's how it is. GT's ending DOES have diegetic elements, though, because they knew it was definitely the end. At least for then. Franchise fatigue, Toriyama moving on, & diminishing returns set in with GT. It's like what happened with Star Trek almost a decade later, so they gave the series a proper sendoff.

I mean, it's possible to make a Dragon Ball series with different protagonists, but that's not the only direction they could go in. It'd also have a completely different feel from the older stuff since you'd have to have different characters to contrast the previous ones. It'd also be a tough sell if it doesn't make a good first impression. Not that they can't do it, but they'd have to be careful.

I mean, that was my point. It IS intentionally ambiguous. It also doesn't make any sense no matter how you slice it because of that. If Goku somehow died, it doesn't make sense for the reasons I stated before. If he didn't, it doesn't make much sense how he's suddenly invulnerable to Omega's attacks. Sometimes leaving something ambiguous can work for letting the audience interpret something as they will & generate discussion over the piece of media. However, if said piece of media doesn't give you enough to go on, then anyone can interpret any reason for whatever happens to have happened. As such, some people have interpreted as what happened to Goku dying while fighting. However, that also can't be what happened because of how death generally works in Dragon Ball. Unless they were already in Other World, or the Land of the Kais, Goku shouldn't have stayed on Earth if that were the case. I personally think they just hit the episode count & couldn't think of a better way to resolve the fight in time, so they did something that didn't make sense & just gave Goku super armor when he shouldn't have had any. As much umbrage as people could take with the Namekian Dragon Balls healing Goku & bringing his ki back to normal, at least it's something that sticks within the logic of the series & hadn't happened before in the story. At least, that's how I see it.

[SupremeKai25]

It's pretty funny how some takes in the fandom mock and ridicule the Trunks' Spirit Sword because it's left ambiguous how Trunks learned the Spirit Bomb technique... but then turn around and love the GT ending, which literally does not make any sense.

If Goku died, then it's unclear why or how his ghost is there. That's not how the Dragon Ball afterlife works. If Goku lived, then it's unclear how he survives full blasts from Omega Shenron while in his Base form.

It's interesting how people are willing to overlook the terrible and contradictory writing of that ending just because it's sappy and melodramatic.

Makes me wonder if the Spirit Sword would be more loved if Trunks got his happy fairy tale ending.

[Scsigs]

It's pretty funny how some takes in the fandom mock and ridicule the Trunks' Spirit Sword because it's left ambiguous how Trunks learned the Spirit Bomb technique... but then turn around and love the GT ending, which literally does not make any sense.

If Goku died, then it's unclear why or how his ghost is there. That's not how the Dragon Ball afterlife works. If Goku lived, then it's unclear how he survives full blasts from Omega Shenron while in his Base form.

It's interesting how people are willing to overlook the terrible and contradictory writing of that ending just because it's sappy and melodramatic.

Makes me wonder if the Spirit Sword would be more loved if Trunks got his happy fairy tale ending.

I can agree there. Trunks never heard about the Spirit Bomb before that we know of, nor had he been established as knowing how to channel any energy gathered through one into his sword. It's definitely not established, undefined, & rushed. I hate the ending of that arc & that's 1 of the moments of it that I have criticisms towards.

GT's ending, I think people focus more on how it makes them feel over how much sense it actually makes. Because it's the last episode & I think the episode actually nailed most of what comes after that part, I think a lot of people tend to overlook it.

I don't know if the Spirit Sword would get more love if it came before a better ending. I think people would have as many criticisms of it even if the ending of the arc were better, it's just that they wouldn't be tied to the shitty ending. But because it went the way it did afterwards, it'll be remembered that way. It's to the point where I think Xenoverse 2 improved upon it a bit by having the energy Trunks gets come from versions of him & a few others from different timelines & points in time, which can help it make slightly more sense, even if there's still a plot hole with how he even could do it in the first place.

[WittyUsername]

The most plausible fan theory to me regarding GT’s ending is that Goku was killed, but some divine intervention from Shen-Long, allowed his spirit to live on long enough to finish off the Evil Dragons.

[SupremeKai25]

The most plausible fan theory to me regarding GT’s ending is that Goku was killed, but some divine intervention from Shen-Long, allowed his spirit to live on long enough to finish off the Evil Dragons.

Following your logic, I could say that Super Saiyan Rage is not an asspull because a plausible fan theory is that Trunks tapped into some of the God power while training EXTENSIVELY with SSB Vegeta.

At what point does a "mystery" become an "asspull/plot hole"?

It's interesting how people are willing to overlook the terrible and contradictory writing of that ending just because it's sappy and melodramatic.

It's funny. I met people online who told me "it's heavily implied Goku was revived as a ghost" or whatever... it is never implied. It's a popular fan theory, but no more.

Goku's status at the end of GT has as much explanation as Trunks' new toys in Super.

[Yuji]

It's funny. I met people online who told me "it's heavily implied Goku was revived as a ghost" or whatever... it is never implied. It's a popular fan theory, but no more.

Goku's status at the end of GT has as much explanation as Trunks' new toys in Super.

It's not a fan theory. Several staff members have commented on it, the episode's script writer, the producer and Nozawa herself.

It could have been conveyed better perhaps, but the vagueness was intentional.

[SupremeKai25]

It's funny. I met people online who told me "it's heavily implied Goku was revived as a ghost" or whatever... it is never implied. It's a popular fan theory, but no more.

Goku's status at the end of GT has as much explanation as Trunks' new toys in Super.

It's not a fan theory. Several staff members have commented on it, the episode's script writer, the producer and Nozawa herself.

It could have been conveyed better perhaps, but the vagueness was intentional.

Uhm, yes, it's a vague ending. I never said otherwise.

So why can't I make the exact same argument for Future Trunks? What's Super Saiyan Rage? How did he create a Spirit Sword? Because it was intentionally written in a vague way, so that people would wonder if it had something to do with his trainings he did in the past.

Oh wait, no, Future Trunks' stuff is not vague writing to generate theories in the fandom. It's just an asspull/plot hole. I suppose there must be some parameter for what constitutes a plot hole or whatever and what constitutes "vague writing".