There should have been another fight before the confrontation with Frieza on Namek

[Benjamin-Simons-91]

Logically speaking, the Ginyu Force members (sans Guldo) were merely between 40,000-50,000, the Zenkai boosts that Vegeta and Gohan obtained from the battle with Recoome should not have taken them to over 200,000 just so they'll be able to stand up against "first form" Frieza.

If Abo and Cado were invented by the time that the manga was released, they should have been used as a buffer between the Ginyu Force members and Captain Ginyu himself who would have been written twice as strong as he was (240,000 instead of 120,000) to make the heroes' power growth logical. Goku's power level is also doubled in this case (180,000 as base instead of 90,000 and 360,000 in Kaioken x2) and he faces Ginyu while Vegeta (110,000), Gohan (70,000) and Krillin (24,000) take care of Aka, whom 'was' called to Namek along with the Ginyu Force.

Even if Abo and Cado are just at 40,000 each, to keep in line with their stated rank, their fusion should be at 160,000 to make the growth of Vegeta and Gohan more likely.

[Thouser]

If the power level gap is such an issue that it necessitates rewriting the story, wouldn’t it be simpler to just make Freeza’s power level(s) smaller?

[MasenkoHA]

I think the secret is to stop treating Dragon Ball like your math homework and just understand its a fictional fantasy kung fu cartoon.

[JulieYBM]

I think the secret is to stop treating Dragon Ball like your math homework and just understand its a fictional fantasy kung fu cartoon.

This is exactly it.

We all might as well toss out those numbers completely, because they ultimately don't mean shit and that's okay.

[jjgp1112]

The Ginyu Force was already pushing things and feeling somewhat redundant, especially when you step back and realize it was a hollow rehash of the Nappa situation the same way the Piccolo arc recycled elements of Tao Pai Pai. The only real issue here is Toriyama making Frieza's power level SO much higher than everybody else's. But really, in the end it doesn't really matter, Toriyama just needed whatever number sounded scariest and for the other characters to catch up. Nothing really changes thematically.

[ABED]

The Ginyu Force was already pushing things and feeling somewhat redundant, especially when you step back and realize it was a hollow rehash of the Nappa situation the same way the Piccolo arc recycled elements of Tao Pai Pai. The only real issue here is Toriyama making Frieza's power level SO much higher than everybody else's. But really, in the end it doesn't really matter, Toriyama just needed whatever number sounded scariest and for the other characters to catch up. Nothing really changes thematically.

Hard disagree about it feeling hollow. The Ginyu Force was a great appetizer before Freeza. There are similarities to Nappa only insofar as they are all subordinates but the personalities are so vastly different that whatever recurring elements need not be seen as a negative. I might agree if The Ginyu Force hadn't been a stand out part of the entire arc and among my favorites.

This isn't a numbers issue, but I do think going from Zarbon and Dodoria straight to Freeza would've felt sudden. The Ginyu Force does such a great job of teeing up Freeza because if our heroes have such a hard time against them, what the hell is Freeza gonna be like.

[Kid Buu]

I liked the Ginyu Froce fight and didn't feel we needed a fight beyond that. I could have done without a Freeza form though.

[Zephyr]

I don't look at remixed plot beats with as much scorn as many do, so it doesn't bother me that there was a "Goku arrives at the last minute to save the day!" plot beat with the Ginyus. I think the real issue there is that it gets done again in the same arc when Goku arrives to begin fighting Freeza. I think a tighter story would have probably only done that the one time in the arc, but I don't really have any specific fix in mind that seems super obvious to me. I do also enjoy the Ginyus well enough that I'd hardly want to see them cut from the story entirely.

That said, I don't think I would shrink Freeza's power any, or just ignore the numbers, either. Because the rapid power inflation is kinda funny to me. Once again busting out the Herms post:

I find that the Boo arc's more lighthearted tone makes me more accepting of all the ridiculousness, whereas with some of the earlier arcs the fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger.

While his point is that something so silly in a story demanding to be taken seriously is more difficult for him to get onboard with, I think that precise juxtaposition (deliberate or otherwise) is one of the things that my adult brain has come to appreciate about DB. Patently silly shit that successfully tricks me into meeting its demands to be taken seriously.

All that to say, nah I don't think we needed another fight before Freeza. What we got was plenty good.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't look at remixed plot beats with as much scorn as many do, so it doesn't bother me that there was a "Goku arrives at the last minute to save the day!" plot beat with the Ginyus. I think the real issue there is that it gets done again in the same arc when Goku arrives to begin fighting Freeza. I think a tighter story would have probably only done that the one time in the arc, but I don't really have any specific fix in mind that seems super obvious to me. I do also enjoy the Ginyus well enough that I'd hardly want to see them cut from the story entirely.

I think its understandable why Goku had to be removed from the story again. It has to be believable that Goku could keep up somewhat with Freeza in his final form but the previous forms still have to be intimidating. Let the other characters deal with his first three forms Goku can fight his most powerful form.

I suppose the only solution I could think to do is have Freeza in his second or third form mortally wound Goku and Dende heals him and that Saiyan power boost makes him strong enough to stand against fourth form Freeza.

Alternatively don't even have Goku show up to Namek until Freeza is already in his final form though I'm not sure how to take care of the Ginyus since they need to be powerful enough to make Vegeta shit his pants

[theherodjl]

PLs really should've just ended with the fight against Vegeta, as that was the point where they got ridiculous. The numbers were more or less stable by comparison prior to that, remaining in the 3-4 digit range before the reveal of Vegeta being in the 5 and then 6 digit range, which forced Goku(and by extension, everyone else) to have to escalate with various power ups in order to stand a chance. Freeza having to then be even stronger than that on top of being able to transform was just the final nail in the coffin, as the numbers could justifiable just shoot up to any figure if the precedent set by Vegeta was anything to go by. For all we know, the Androids could be 10x stronger than Freeza's best, Cell could be 100x stronger than the Androids, and Boo could be 1000x stronger than Cell and so on. The system was already broken when the Namek arc began.

[PhantomSaiyan]

That would mean writing the story in service of power levels instead of the other way around like it should be (and like it actually is in the manga)

Story and pacing are way more important than making sure those silly numbers make perfect sense, adding a whole section just to make sure that the power level jumps were more fluid would be useless, I think the frieza confrontation happened at the perfect time in the story, exactly when it should have happened.

Power levels as a tool were cool in the beginning, but they outlived their usefulness by the end of the saiyan saga, and I'm glad toriyama ended up ditching them

[jjgp1112]

The Ginyu Force was already pushing things and feeling somewhat redundant, especially when you step back and realize it was a hollow rehash of the Nappa situation the same way the Piccolo arc recycled elements of Tao Pai Pai. The only real issue here is Toriyama making Frieza's power level SO much higher than everybody else's. But really, in the end it doesn't really matter, Toriyama just needed whatever number sounded scariest and for the other characters to catch up. Nothing really changes thematically.

Hard disagree about it feeling hollow. The Ginyu Force was a great appetizer before Freeza. There are similarities to Nappa only insofar as they are all subordinates but the personalities are so vastly different that whatever recurring elements need not be seen as a negative. I might agree if The Ginyu Force hadn't been a stand out part of the entire arc and among my favorites.

This isn't a numbers issue, but I do think going from Zarbon and Dodoria straight to Freeza would've felt sudden. The Ginyu Force does such a great job of teeing up Freeza because if our heroes have such a hard time against them, what the hell is Freeza gonna be like.

Oh I agree that the Ginyus in themselves are awesome, but just the way they come into the story feels somewhat like stretching things out and then the way Goku returns to the battlefield and stuff, that's where it starts to feel like a rehash of the Nappa fight.

I think if I were to rewrite things, I'd make the Ginyu Force Frieza's accomplices from the jump, in place of Zarbon and Dodoria. Vegeta picks them apart but eventually gets backed into a corner and has to turn to Gohan and Krillin.

Then again, I think in the moment the escalation to the Ginyus is an engaging twist, so maybe my only real beef with that section is simply the execution up until the body switch, and like Zephyr mentioned doing the Goku out of commission thing twice in a row.

[Skar]

I think it would've easier to do away with power levels completely. Maybe have the scouter detect power but without giving a number and rank them in a class. If every shonen or action series had power levels, some of them would have their numbers get inflated quicker than in Dragon Ball. A class system would get the point across there's a big difference between their power but unclear how big of a gap so no one bothers with the math. It also serves the same purpose of Freeza and his army needing a machine to detect power and isn't useful when someone learns to suppress it.

S Class: 100% Freeza, SSJ Goku

A+ Class: Freeza, Base Goku

A Class: Ginyu Force

B+ Class: Freeza's elites like Zarbon, Dodoria, Cui, Vegeta

B: Nappa, other Saiyans

C+: Goku and Piccolo at the beginning of DBZ

C: Other strongest characters on Earth at the time

Maybe something like that I don't know.