I'm happy that GT Pan never turned Super Saiyan.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I agree -- largely in its tone than in its content.

Who are you folks appearing out of nowhere, guns blazing with antagonism from the very first post in a thread?

Is this referring to me? If so I'd like to clarify that I did not post that comment with the intention of antagonizing, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I simply stated my opinion that Pan was irrelevant in GT, in a way to imply that anything would have been better than what we've got, even a tacked on super saiyan transformation would be better than being irrelevant or a damsel in distress.

Clearly I disagreed with the user who created this thread and that first reply was meant to show that, but my intention was not at all to come in guns blazing. Maybe the lack of elaboration of my point made it seem more hostile than it was supposed to be (in my head it wasn't supposed to be hostile at all). Anyway, if you were referring to me then apologies, I'll make sure not to come across as antagonistic in the future and to express my tone more clearly, because the last thing I want is to spread negativity.

[VegettoEX]

Is this referring to me?

This is referring to several people posting in this thread, including the topic creator and several of those responding. All would do well to reassess things here.

[Majin Buu]

It's a weird take to be happy about something cool not happening to a female character when we know that something didn't happen because of sexist ideas.

Spinning it as "because merchandising around new transformations is lame" is even weirder. It's such a flimsy, "grasping at straws" type of argument that feels tone-deaf considering that, again, we know this actually didn't happen because of sexist ideas on the part of GT's producer.

[JulieYBM]

It's a weird take to be happy about something cool not happening to a female character when we know that something didn't happen because of sexist ideas.

Spinning it as "because merchandising around new transformations is lame" is even weirder. It's such a flimsy, "grasping at straws" type of argument that feels tone-deaf considering that, again, we know this actually didn't happen because of sexist ideas on the part of GT's producer.

I'm glad that someone else brought this up. I wasn't really sure if I should phrase this argument as such because I was second-guessing myself, but this really is a weird care of trying to act put a progressive spin on what is pretty clearly just sexist bullshit. Super Saiyan would have been an easy, pre-established short form to display Pan as being capable and on the same level as the others...but she was denied that, because some guy couldn't understand the concept of girls not intrinsically needing boys to protect them.

[Jack Bz]

Yeah, of all the things I didn't like about GT, turning Goku's martial arts loving granddaughter into a damsel in distress and specifically confirming that was the intention in interviews is on the top of the list. She's one of those characters where it really wouldn't need much explaining at all why she can keep up/surpass Goku.

Would have been interesting for Goku to realise across the show that he should have trained Pan along with Oob.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

It's a weird take to be happy about something cool not happening to a female character when we know that something didn't happen because of sexist ideas.

I don't get it either. Pan had so much potential to be among the great characters of the franchise, but she was denied that for the sole reason of being a girl. GT dropped the ball with just about every idea they had. Pan being front and center was not a bad idea at all, they just did nothing with it besides the bare minimum. Superhero gave me hope that Toriyama would give her the spotlight she desperately deserved, but with him gone now I doubt that will happen.

[Vice]

Gotta love how any time a female character isn't treated like a straight up girl-boss, it's because of mysoginy, because of course it is.

Don't know why we have to make a victim Olympics out of everything

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Gotta love how any time a female character isn't treated like a straight up girl-boss, it's because of mysoginy, because of course it is.

Don't know why we have to make a victim Olympics out of everything

The producers literally said that's what it was.

[JulieYBM]

Gotta love how any time a female character isn't treated like a straight up girl-boss, it's because of mysoginy, because of course it is.

Don't know why we have to make a victim Olympics out of everything

Man who doesn't have a single woman as a friend right here.

[Jord]

I can see what TC's going for. It makes Pan more unique in a way, not relying on being able to transform. Even if she was able to transform, it wouldn't matter that much power-wise, since the other Super Saiyans, except for maybe Vegeta, didn't matter much power-wise, compared to Goku.
I also don't feel it's just bound to the time period in which GT was made, otherwise we would have seen a Xeno SSJ Pan in Heroes by now.

In a way, she's part of the emotional heart of the show, which I really like. She doesn't have a mega power, and is in a way more relatable to the audience that way.

[Vice]

Man who doesn't have a single woman as a friend right here.

Oh boy, another one for the bingo card. I didn't bend over backwards to sing a woman her praises so I must have never spoken to one in my entire life, naturally

The producers literally said that's what it was.

Why must every single female character need to be a strong and independent boss babe who don't need no man, otherwise it's mysoginy? What is wrong with one filling the role of whatever the narrative needs her to be?

[PhantomSaiyan]

Why must every single female character need to be a strong and independent boss babe who don't need no man, otherwise it's mysoginy? What is wrong with one filling the role of whatever the narrative needs her to be?

This isn't just any character we are talking about, Pan has been shown to be a prodigy and martial arts lover back in End of Z, and she's the daughter of Gohan and is likely to have the same potential as him.
In Dragonball there's already a shortage of women doing anything, if anyone was going to be a strong female character, it had to be Pan. Seeing a character with such potential turned into a damsel in distress is disappointing no matter how you spin in

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Why must every single female character need to be a strong and independent boss babe who don't need no man...

You're one of those people I see. I guess there's no point in trying to change your mind.

[Majin Buu]

Oh boy, another one for the bingo card. I didn't bend over backwards to sing a woman her praises so I must have never spoken to one in my entire life, naturally

It's telling that your rebuttal is "I've spoken to women before" when her accusation was that you don't have friends that are women.

And yeah, your statements reek of the type of guy that doesn't associate with women in any way that would facilitate some understanding and empathy on your part for what women go through on a regular basis.

Why must every single female character need to be a strong and independent boss babe who don't need no man, otherwise it's mysoginy?

Got anymore strawmen to throw out?

[Koitsukai]

If SS was off-limits, and they felt like keeping the same design, then since she is Gohan's daughter, they could've given her an ultimate-ish form. Her power can be accessed without the need to transform, it's all out and ready to be used on demand. Also, the perfect way to make her as strong as she needed to be.

But what I disliked the most was her personality. So obnoxious and stereotypical, bullying that little robot all the time. Since her father is quite smart and a bookworm, she could've also been like that but a smartass, too, one that gets in trouble due to it, and whose arc is going from a know-it-all to a more humble person like those in her family.
I mean, if she is not getting any benefits from being a saiyan descent, then let her get some from being raised by a scholar.
But what am I asking from the staff that came up with an episode of Pan sulking because she believes is nothing but an obstacle and they want to send her back home... and the episode proves she was one and needed to be saved by a silly robot?
Or when she went all Rambo to save Goku at M2, just to fail and have Goku, the hostage, save her.


And yeah, it is strange to be happy there was sexism involved that prevented us from having 101 toys instead of 100. That really saved the franchise from damnation.

[Majin Buu]

But what I disliked the most was her personality. So obnoxious and stereotypical, bullying that little robot all the time. Since her father is quite smart and a bookworm, she could've also been like that but a smartass, too, one that gets in trouble due to it, and whose arc is going from a know-it-all to a more humble person like those in her family.
I mean, if she is not getting any benefits from being a saiyan descent, then let her get some from being raised by a scholar.
But what am I asking from the staff that came up with an episode of Pan sulking because she believes is nothing but an obstacle and they want to send her back home... and the episode proves she was one and needed to be saved by a silly robot?
Or when she went all Rambo to save Goku at M2, just to fail and have Goku, the hostage, save her.

Agreed.

As much as it sucks that they explicitly put a cap on Pan's strength because she's a girl, being written in a way that made her come off as a bully and a load is another huge problem with how they handled her character.

[Mr Baggins]

Yeah, GT Pan is a fundamentally bad character from the jump. The blatant sexism is the tip of the iceberg.

Like, they could slap on Super Saiyan or some other form. They could try to give her a more active role in the story that didn't just amount to being a cheerleader or damsel in distress.

All of this would still probably amount to nothing because GT has consistently proven it has no grasp on buildup or believable character writing to make any of that shit work, and we see it not only with Pan herself but just about the whole cast. That's when it wasn't already inserting some of the most vapidly executed comedy and levity imaginable in any Dragon Ball product.

Its writing was incompetent because its writers were.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Its writing was incompetent because its writers were.

If you read interviews with the producers, you'd realize they actually had some good ideas, but all were abandoned in favor of Goku time. Any plot line that didn't directly revolve around Goku was immediately dropped.

[JulieYBM]

That M2 arc was the perfect opportunity to do a big plot beat where Pan matures both as a person and unlocks a Super Saiyan form. It basically writes itself, especially twenty episodes into the series.

Man who doesn't have a single woman as a friend right here.

Oh boy, another one for the bingo card. I didn't bend over backwards to sing a woman her praises so I must have never spoken to one in my entire life, naturally

No, but it is clear that you don't make friends with women and learn about their interests, struggles and how they see themselves in the arts. No guy who is friends with women—let alone women who are also into talking online about their favorite works of art—would think so say what you said.

Like, you came in here with an attitude. Don't cry wolf because you got called out for it.

Why must every single female character need to be a strong and independent boss babe who don't need no man, otherwise it's mysoginy? What is wrong with one filling the role of whatever the narrative needs her to be?

Nobody in Dragon Ball is a 'boss babe'. They're all eventually brushed aside because the idea of treating even a fictional girl or woman with respect and showcasing her as someone children can relate to and look up to is a foreign concept to the men in charge.

Even then, having strong female characters will teach children—the target audience of Dragon Ball—not to grow up into being a weirdo about girls and women, so that's good enough.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

That M2 arc was the perfect opportunity to do a big plot beat where Pan matures both as a person and unlocks a Super Saiyan form.

Goku and Trunks being taken would've been a good time for her to unlock it. Other instances would've been in the Baby arc when Gohan tried to kill her before Uub showed up, against Super 17 when she threatened to kill Gero, and against Ocean Shenron.