I'm happy that GT Pan never turned Super Saiyan.

[NeverRamza]

No, but it is clear that you don't make friends with women and learn about their interests, struggles and how they see themselves in the arts. No guy who is friends with women—let alone women who are also into talking online about their favorite works of art—would think so say what you said.

Like, you came in here with an attitude. Don't cry wolf because you got called out for it.

I don't necessarily disagree with what I think your personal opinion is but some of the most critical people I've known regarding women in male-centric shows have been other women. They've had the same opinion Vice had and have shown even less restraint.

[JulieYBM]

No, but it is clear that you don't make friends with women and learn about their interests, struggles and how they see themselves in the arts. No guy who is friends with women—let alone women who are also into talking online about their favorite works of art—would think so say what you said.

Like, you came in here with an attitude. Don't cry wolf because you got called out for it.

I don't necessarily disagree with what I think your personal opinion is but some of the most critical people I've known regarding women in male-centric shows have been other women. They've had the same opinion Vice had and have shown even less restraint.

I'm extremely critical of women in male-centric works. Vice was not being critical and it's also very clear that he did not read any of the posts or think about why women might call out a pretty blatant disregard for the importance—and mistreatment—of female characters in these types of series. If we want to shift the goalposts to other works, we can certainly do that, but I am really not seeing where anyone in this thread is asking for 'girlboss' writing, especially, y'know, me, a literal woman...being critical of the way the series primarily created by men and aimed towards children is depicting women.

[NeverRamza]

I'm extremely critical of women in male-centric works. Vice was not being critical and it's also very clear that he did not read any of the posts or think about why women might call out a pretty blatant disregard for the importance—and mistreatment—of female characters in these types of series. If we want to shift the goalposts to other works, we can certainly do that, but I am really not seeing where anyone in this thread is asking for 'girlboss' writing, especially, y'know, me, a literal woman...being critical of the way the series primarily created by men and aimed towards children is depicting women.

From what I can tell, you've been talking about how you want more positive representation of women in Dragon Ball (and I'm guessing in male-centrc battle anime in general). You believe that the positive representation of women entails the female characters having similar importance to the male characters. If there are male characters that can beat up bad guys, there should be capable female characters as well. Having female characters be unable to compare in these qualities to the male characters is a bad thing.

Vice, if I'm to be charitable, suggsted that Dragon Ball doesn't need to have this prioritization and that there isn't anything inheriently wrong with the female characters getting sidelined. That a battle anime only having male characters in the spotlight isn't necessarily saying something larger about women in general or at least something negative. I'm guessing he's making a statement regarding impact. I'm guessing that's what Vice meant when using the term "girlboss". I was hoping to stay away from that term.

I suppose I'm making a lot of assumptions about the intent of posters (some now freshly banned apparently). However, if my assumption about Vice's intent is correct, I've heard other women have the same sentiment. While the utilization of the characters in Dragon Ball isn't always as accodingly to be what my preference would be, I'm just trying to say that we should stay from the generalizations.

[JulieYBM]

I'm extremely critical of women in male-centric works. Vice was not being critical and it's also very clear that he did not read any of the posts or think about why women might call out a pretty blatant disregard for the importance—and mistreatment—of female characters in these types of series. If we want to shift the goalposts to other works, we can certainly do that, but I am really not seeing where anyone in this thread is asking for 'girlboss' writing, especially, y'know, me, a literal woman...being critical of the way the series primarily created by men and aimed towards children is depicting women.

From what I can tell, you've been talking about how you want more positive representation of women in Dragon Ball (and I'm guessing in male-centrc battle anime in general). You believe that the positive representation of women entails the female characters having similar importance to the male characters. If there are male characters that can beat up bad guys, there should be capable female characters as well. Having female characters be unable to compare in these qualities to the male characters is a bad thing.

Vice, if I'm to be charitable, suggsted that Dragon Ball doesn't need to have this prioritization and that there isn't anything inheriently wrong with the female characters getting sidelined. That a battle anime only having male characters in the spotlight isn't necessarily saying something larger about women in general or at least something negative. I'm guessing he's making a statement regarding impact. I'm guessing that's what Vice meant when using the term "girlboss". I was hoping to stay away from that term.

I suppose I'm making a lot of assumptions about the intent of posters (some now freshly banned apparently). However, if my assumption about Vice's intent is correct, I've heard other women have the same sentiment. While the utilization of the characters in Dragon Ball isn't always as accodingly to be what my preference would be, I'm just trying to say that we should stay from the generalizations.

I want to preface the following by saying that I'm probably going to be coming off strong in a second, but I don't mean it in an antagonizing manner: I do think that you're being overly charitable in interpreting Vice's posts, because Vice could have absolutely come in here with a completely different attitude, but instead chose to brush off the validity of any sort of criticism about the handling of Pan—and more broadly, the other female characters—in the series by relying on strawmen like the term 'girlboss' to shut down any nuance in what people are trying to say. His subsequent posts all but confirmed that he was coming into the discussion with an antagonizing attitude. At this point, though, I feel like I'm kind of just preaching to the choir specifically discussing a banned user, so I wonder if it isn't time to move on a little.

Nobody wants girlboss characters. Big corporations will perhaps develop them (I don't watch nearly enough big titles to remember who the hell is being called a girlboss, myself) because they think that appeals to some market or lets them shallowly appeal to women without having to have the heavy discussion about women and how they're treated, but I place that more on the woes of a project being commercial and executive-driven, than actually being the work of an artist. This also isn't to say that male characters don't also have 'girlbosses' themselves, either. I think it's kind of damning that we rely on terms like 'girlboss' or 'Mary Sue' in previous eras to describe "female character who isn't struggling too much" when we don't do that for the infinitely higher number of male characters who follow that trend, too. I don't know a single woman who wants to watch a series or movie and not want the character to have depth and struggle to their character arcs.

Like, I brought up the M2 episodes for Pan a few posts ago. That was the perfect moment for her to shine. The strongly opinionated girl hits a wall—which everyone ever eventually does—and has to reflect and overcome it. It's the perfect moment in a battle-oriented series for her to reflect, use her wits, and then when forced to fight head-on, grow into a new form and overcome the antagonist. This doesn't really happen, because she is then immediately outshined by Gokuu's multiple episode fight with Rilld and then slips back into the role of glorified cheerleader and damsel in distress for the rest of the series. It's a culminating moment that eventually comes out as half-baked.

On a macro level, the lack of dramatic/cool/whathaveyou arcs for female characters is just emblematic of a bigger issue across not just Dragon Ball, but shounen series in general—to say nothing of broader media, most especially popular media.

[super michael]

Goten and Trunks were born from Super Saiyan parents, which might be why they gained Super Saiyan easier than any other Saiyan.

However Pan was born from Super Saiyan 2/Ultimate form parents. Pan should have gained a transformation like Goten and Trunks or even something unique that mix Super Saiyan and Ultimate form to make something new.


In GT Pan cried due to getting hit with a can. She couldn't escape the sun gravity and struggled to pick up some people. They made Pan look weak in GT, which doesn't make sense when she enjoys to fight and train. In EOZ she was capable of flying around the earth.

The positive side I can say is that Pan got character development in GT and she was allowed to fight. She was helpful when Goku was in his Oozaru form and when he was struggling against Oceanus Shenron. She did manage to beat a robot by herself on M2 and surprise attack Dr Gero, to try and make him stop Super 17 which was smart.
However I expected more from Pan.


As for Bra is there anything positive about her? She isn't smart or strong. She hasn't demonstrated any skills.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

As for Bra is there anything positive about her? She isn't smart or strong. She hasn't demonstrated any skills.

Vegeta and Bulma's daughter being neither strong nor smart made zero sense. GT really dropped the ball with just about every character when you think about it. Even Goku who the producers worshiped was written terribly in the Super #17 arc.

[WittyUsername]

Pan in GT was put in this weird situation where the writers seemed to try and position her as the new Bulma, while still having to acknowledge that the epilogue in the manga presented her as someone who can and does like to fight. She’s a fighter, but not a particularly useful one. Whenever she gets involved in the action, it’s not allowed to be done in a way that upstages Goku. Any win she accomplishes on her own is extremely minor.

I’d argue Pan’s most significant moment in the show is snapping Goku out of his Great Ape rampage, but that didn’t involve any fighting. It involved sappy emotions and sentimentality. You know, “girly” things.

[super michael]

As for Bra is there anything positive about her? She isn't smart or strong. She hasn't demonstrated any skills.

Vegeta and Bulma's daughter being neither strong nor smart made zero sense. GT really dropped the ball with just about every character when you think about it. Even Goku who the producers worshiped was written terribly in the Super #17 arc.

True in GT we never got to see Gotenks. I don't know why possessed Goten and Trunks didn't fuse at all. It doesn't make sense that they never fused against Super 17 and Omega Shenron.

[Trouser]

As for Bra is there anything positive about her? She isn't smart or strong. She hasn't demonstrated any skills.

Vegeta and Bulma's daughter being neither strong nor smart made zero sense.

Why? I know lots of people from "wealth" and "smart" families who just want to be themselves, not a copy of their parents. Bra being different than Bulma and/or Vegeta is not a bad thing. There's no need for every character to be relevant to the story.

[JulieYBM]

My problem with Bra being neither a genius nor a fighter would be less of an issue if she wasn't just generally contributing to the franchise's general treatment of its female characters. That being said, she's 'demanding rich girl' enough that she would be so entertaining during a fight that it's kind of a huge shame that she doesn't really 'fight'.

[super michael]

As for Bra is there anything positive about her? She isn't smart or strong. She hasn't demonstrated any skills.

Vegeta and Bulma's daughter being neither strong nor smart made zero sense.

Why? I know lots of people from "wealth" and "smart" families who just want to be themselves, not a copy of their parents. Bra being different than Bulma and/or Vegeta is not a bad thing. There's no need for every character to be relevant to the story.

They could be different such as being farmers, artist, musician, fortune teller, playing games, creating games, playing sports, etc. However Bra hasn't demonstrated any talent or skills.
Bra being irrelevant to the story isn't the issue here.

We haven't seen what makes Bra special in anyway at all. She doesn't have anything that makes her unique and she doesn't have her parents skills and strengths. Bra doesn't even have a useless skill.

[BernardoCairo]

Pan should have turned Super Saiyajin and broke out of her damsel in distress role. There is no good reason for why this never happened.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Why?

Because DB is a show about fighting and it would be interesting to see someone as smart as Bulma with Vegeta's power.

[Zephyr]

As for Bra is there anything positive about her? She isn't smart or strong. She hasn't demonstrated any skills.

Vegeta and Bulma's daughter being neither strong nor smart made zero sense.

Why? I know lots of people from "wealth" and "smart" families who just want to be themselves, not a copy of their parents. Bra being different than Bulma and/or Vegeta is not a bad thing. There's no need for every character to be relevant to the story.

I think the closest Bra comes to being 'like Vegeta' is in the Super 17 arc. After Chichi and Videl gear up to go join the fight, Bra's like:


Then says "let's go join them" to Bulma. I think it's a pretty funny moment, even if it doesn't really go anywhere.

[JulieYBM]

God, Bra looks so fucking shitty there, I love it lol

[MasenkoHA]

I always figured Bra would at least display strength comparable to Gohan at the beginning of the Saiyan saga but nobody was pushing her buttons and at that point a battle power around 1000 really didn’t mean anything so it was just the same as her being as powerful as Bulma to the rest of the cast