Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[Saiyan007]

I don't give a fuck if you want to repeat yourself or not. The Manga is referred to as the True Story, not the anime. Go cry to somebody else about it.

anime was referred to as canon as well

Spoiler:

[Cipher]

So, yeah. I didn't like Daima.

I've read this story a dozen times through Toriyama short manga, but they have all three of the 1) original and mutable adventuring casts, 2) pacing of Toriyama's self-drawn works and 3) scene-by-scene scripting and timing of his self-drawn works to sustain themselves, the loss of all three of which was strongly felt here.

The basics of his tone and humor are here, it's gorgeous, but by the end I just thoroughly did not care what was happening. The final three or so episodes are probably the most gorgeous Dragon Ball action has ever looked in animation; I've rarely been more bored.

This is without touching on the needlessly obtuse continuity aspects, which—sure, this is neither here nor there—but take what was a fairly clear and linear story (even with GT and the multiple versions of Super, even with the non-continuity films and little neggling bits that require minor reworks of the manga's ending for Super) and render it a series of question marks that kind of make you feel like, "Well, what was the point of investing in this larger story (of DB and its sequels) at all?" The ability to engage on that level, as silly as the content was (or precisely because it was silly at the same time) was always one of DB's pleasures, even through Super, and probably a major part of the reason we're all here.

And what was it for? Half Toriyama short manga stretched into oblivion and with a cast rendered overbloated and half-drawn due to their own existing iconography, half...GT fanservice that doesn't marry up well with its own content or amount to enough to reverse-engineer a story from?

As a stand-alone DB sequel/alternative to Super it has neither the brevity nor function as an epilogue Battle of Gods in stand-alone offers. As a stand-alone story, it functions about a third as well as any original Toriyama manga it resembles.

Who was this for, but the most diehard of Dragon Ball fans (for whom it also raises distracting questions and kind of punishes investment)? Did it know? Did it care?

[IntangibleFancy]

Do you think we'll get a post-daima + future-of-the-franchise interview in AnimeJapan 2025?

Now that we're returning to the drought, that means we're back to the constant loop of Dragon Ball being sponsored in big conventions that we'd normally get reveals from, certain people like directors or Akio or Toyotaro attending, and various other things that make it seem like we're going to get more content...only for the reveal (if there even is one) to be something that didn't need a stage at all or anything more than a tweet or a newsletter, really...

[Baggie_Saiyan]

You can't keep writing off canon. It's clearly important to the fandom (and to maintaining good stories in general).

The problem with an established canon is that it prioritizes certain material over others, which in turn can end up costing the rights holders $$$. If they were to come out and say that Daima is the new canon moving forward, then chances are they'll lose money on Super's products due to fans no longer being interested in something that "doesn't count". Every part of the franchise brings in a lot of money for the companies involved with it, be it GT, the old movies, Super, etc..., so it would be counterproductive to come out and say "this and this count, while that and the other don't".

The fuck are you talking about? Merch popularity isn't usually dictated by what does & doesn't matter. What sells merch is if people want it & if the material it's based on is good to some extent. I mean, people still buy shit relating to GT & the old movies even though they don't matter anymore. This isn't hard to figure out. You really don't know anything about how merchandise works.

Ding ding ding! Bandai have commercialized all 5 series (Muji, DBZ, DBS, GT & Daima) and old DBZ movies this year alone. Bandai still regularly commercialize both DBZ and DBS Broly/Gogeta both with equal high sales. In 2026 Bandai will probably start commercializing GT and Daima SS4 figures side by side.

"Canon" does not matter one bit, I sometimes think some portions of the fanbase over think it and think it means way too much.

[TKA]

The Super manga is canon to the original manga.

One would naturally think that, but there's also things in the super manga that contradict the original: notably piccolo having five fingers like in the anime instead of four, like toriyama alwas drew him, and then there's things like anime only characters like gregory appearing in the manga, or kid vegeta's design being the wrong one with the bangs which contradicts the lore about saiyans' hair never changing since birth (which is so frustrating becuase they got it right in the movie and somehow forgot when readapting it both in anime and manga form)

I don't care about small inconsistencies like the ones you listed (assuming you're correct about them).

The original manga is rife with them.

Arguing about the particularities of canon isn't something that particularly interests me, additionally.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The Super manga is canon to the original manga.

One would naturally think that, but there's also things in the super manga that contradict the original: notably piccolo having five fingers like in the anime instead of four, like toriyama alwas drew him, and then there's things like anime only characters like gregory appearing in the manga, or kid vegeta's design being the wrong one with the bangs which contradicts the lore about saiyans' hair never changing since birth (which is so frustrating becuase they got it right in the movie and somehow forgot when readapting it both in anime and manga form)

I don't care about small inconsistencies like the ones you listed (assuming you're correct about them).

The original manga is rife with them.

Arguing about the particularities of canon isn't something that particularly interests me, additionally.

All of them are correct except the gregory one, which I admittedly misremembered. But the other ones, there's no reason to even doubt them. It's a fact that Piccolo always had four fingers in the original manga and he doesn't in super, and that whenever kid vegeta appears in a toriyama project like minus, broly or battle of gods movie he never has the bangs because toriyama is consistent with saiyans' hairstyles.

Toriyama's Piccolo (four fingers)


Toyotaro's Piccolo (five fingers)


Toriyama's kid Vegeta




Toyotaro's kid Vegeta


No need to assume they're correct, now you know they are
Obviously this isn't story breaking stuff, but it lacks consistency. Going from one manga to it's sequel or midquel with a different artist is already hard enough as it is, these inconsistencies make it extra hard to reconcile the two stories together in my head

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Do you think we'll get a post-daima + future-of-the-franchise interview in AnimeJapan 2025?

No, as I honestly don't think they know how to move forward now that Toriyama is gone. I can see us getting a generic "the franchise will continue forever", or "we have decades worth of stories left to tell", but that's about it. I personally think it would be best for them to take a few years off to properly plan things out.

[Yuji]

Do you think we'll get a post-daima + future-of-the-franchise interview in AnimeJapan 2025?

No, as I honestly don't think they know how to move forward now that Toriyama is gone. I can see us getting a generic "the franchise will continue forever", or "we have decades worth of stories left to tell", but that's about it. I personally think it would be best for them to take a few years off to properly plan things out.

My expectation is that they'll release whatever last batch of stories Toriyama was working on, even if they were something as barebones as a handful of notes and designs. Then I assume before the decade ends they'll try their shot at a 100% original series or continuation, which will most likely be faced with middling reviews and reception just like GT. I think then that'll end it.

[Scsigs]

My expectation is that they'll release whatever last batch of stories Toriyama was working on, even if they were something as barebones as a handful of notes and designs. Then I assume before the decade ends they'll try their shot at a 100% original series or continuation, which will most likely be faced with middling reviews and reception just like GT. I think then that'll end it.

Who knows what Toriyama may have even been brainstorming, though? And if he wrote any of it down as well. Maybe he discussed things with other writers & producers at Toei or Toyotaro, but we don't know how much that is. The most we know is the stuff he had to cut out of the Broly movie's script to cut it down by an hour, which they could bring back Super & bring back that cut content into a TV adaptation of the movie's story. Plus, maybe more Daima stuff that'd actually take care of the plot holes it causes when trying to connect it as-is to Super. However, we don't know how far along he got into thinking about that stuff. I guess we'll see as new DB content gets made & interviews with the people making it come out.

As for a new series that gets middling reviews & reception like GT, I don't know about that. It really depends on how the writers & producers go about things. With Super, I'd say that the biggest writing flaws were Goku's flanderization into an unbelievable idiot for easy comedy & Vegeta's regression as a character from how he ended in the manga. If the writers & producers get those solved & have showrunners that can create some interesting arc plots, I think we could have something that rivals the best of Toriyama. My assumption is that they're going to be careful since Toei had wanted Toriyama involved in new anime projects for DB since the mid-2000s & when they finally got him on board, they bent over backwards to make him happy. They know GT doesn't have the best reception amongst a lot of the fanbase, so I think they're going to wanna make sure they don't repeat them & also make whole new ones in the process. Time will tell, though.

[Koitsukai]

Wait a minute, if killing the Daimao makes you the Daimao, then, isn't Goku the actual King of the Demon Realm?

Buu killed the King, Dabura. So he took the throne, and then Goku killed Buu. Gomah was never the rightful King, he just said he was due to being the next one in line... but the rules contradict that. It doesn't work like that, apparently.

Unless only a Majin can be Daimao, then the throne was left vacant. But that distinction was never made, right?

[Yuji]

Wait a minute, if killing the Daimao makes you the Daimao, then, isn't Goku the actual King of the Demon Realm?

Buu killed the King, Dabura. So he took the throne, and then Goku killed Buu. Gomah was never the rightful King, he just said he was due to being the next one in line... but the rules contradict that. It doesn't work like that, apparently.

Unless only a Majin can be Daimao, then the throne was left vacant. But that distinction was never made, right?

The Boo that killed Dabra is still alive.

[Koitsukai]

Wait a minute, if killing the Daimao makes you the Daimao, then, isn't Goku the actual King of the Demon Realm?

Buu killed the King, Dabura. So he took the throne, and then Goku killed Buu. Gomah was never the rightful King, he just said he was due to being the next one in line... but the rules contradict that. It doesn't work like that, apparently.

Unless only a Majin can be Daimao, then the throne was left vacant. But that distinction was never made, right?

The Boo that killed Dabra is still alive.

That's fair... Kinda. Meaning Mr. Buu is still the Daimao, and Gomah never was.

[ZombieVito]

Another contradiction/error to add to the list lol.

[Thouser]

Wait a minute, if killing the Daimao makes you the Daimao, then, isn't Goku the actual King of the Demon Realm?

Buu killed the King, Dabura. So he took the throne, and then Goku killed Buu. Gomah was never the rightful King, he just said he was due to being the next one in line... but the rules contradict that. It doesn't work like that, apparently.

Unless only a Majin can be Daimao, then the throne was left vacant. But that distinction was never made, right?

The Boo that killed Dabra is still alive.

Koo only had to defeat Gomah, not kill him.

When Evil Boo absorbed Mr. Boo, does that count as Evil Boo “defeating” Mr. Boo, or is the point moot, with just them trading places on which one is “dominant?” I guess once Mr. Boo is taken back out they count as separate. Which I guess would make Goku the Daimaoh after all once he defeats the original Boo??

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The reason Buu didn't become the demon king was because Dabura already had a vice king in Gomah, while Gomah himself didn't select his #2 yet, which meant that the throne was empty once he was defeated.

[Zephyr]

Koo only had to defeat Gomah, not kill him.

When Evil Boo absorbed Mr. Boo, does that count as Evil Boo “defeating” Mr. Boo, or is the point moot, with just them trading places on which one is “dominant?” I guess once Mr. Boo is taken back out they count as separate. Which I guess would make Goku the Daimaoh after all once he defeats the original Boo??

I feel like the absorption should count, but there's also their rematch in the Kaioshin Realm to be considered.

[supershonen]

Do you think we'll get a post-daima + future-of-the-franchise interview in AnimeJapan 2025?

No, as I honestly don't think they know how to move forward now that Toriyama is gone. I can see us getting a generic "the franchise will continue forever", or "we have decades worth of stories left to tell", but that's about it. I personally think it would be best for them to take a few years off to properly plan things out.

They always started working on projects without toriyama and he only later got involved. It's been like that since BoG to dbs broly to Daima. They always knew what to do and toriyama only contributed his part. So i think with iyoku they know what to do it's just that there wouldn't be toriyama's stamp on it and I don't think that will stop fans from consuming the content. And if they happen to have any notes or direction from toriyama then that's even better but isn't that the least toriyama thing? Having notes for future development?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

They always started working on projects without toriyama and he only later got involved. It's been like that since BoG to dbs broly to Daima. They always knew what to do and toriyama only contributed his part.

Toriyama was still there to guide them if they needed it; things are very different now. Even with GT, the least involved he was in a project, he still advised them to set it after the manga rather than the 10 year time skip.

If they happen to have any notes or direction from toriyama then that's even better but isn't that the least toriyama thing? Having notes for future development?

I assume they have notes for what to do with Black Freeza, but that's probably it. Once that story is done, it'll be uncharted territory for the franchise.

[Noah]

Seeing how LEGENDS completely ignored the mini versions of SSJ3 Vegeta and SSJ4 Goku from DAIMA and jumped straight to the adult versions just confirms the general thought here that the kid versions have way less appeal than their current ones.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Seeing how LEGENDS completely ignored the mini versions of SSJ3 Vegeta and SSJ4 Goku from DAIMA and jumped straight to the adult versions just confirms the general thought here that the kid versions have way less appeal than their current ones.

Xenoverse 2 modders would have you believing otherwise: