Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

1) Black Freeza.
2) Beast Gohan.
3) SSFP Broly.
4) Cell Max.
5) UI Goku.
6) UE Vegeta.
7) Orange Piccolo.
8 ) Gas.
9) Granolah.
10) Moro.

[Yuji]

2. Broly (Stated by Toyotaro and Uchida that Goku hasn’t surpassed him. I guess that’s because Broly got stronger?)

Where was this stated? Toyotaro specifically avoided saying Broly when discussing the strongest in the universe during the Granolah arc. And his performance in the post-Superhero scuffle indicates he's not up to par with the rest yet.

Anyway, my list will probably differ a bit because I assume MUI Goku in the Moro arc is stronger than MUI Goku in the Granolah arc. All implicit and explicit power-scaling in that arc points toward Goku not being able to use UI as effectively as before. And if that is the case, it will naturally translate to scaling the others as well.

1. Freeza
2. Gohan
3. Goku
4. Moro
(4.5. Merus?)
5. Jiren
6. Broly
7. Gas
8. Vegeta
9. Cell Max
10. Piccolo

I've always thought promotional material scaling is nonsense. We have to look at the statements and narrative implications the actual stories give us. This is what we know:

- Black Freeza is obviously at the top of the totem pole

- We see Gohan Beast overpower MUI Goku

- Goku is stated repeatedly that he's failing to use MUI's full power in the Granolah arc, and only manages to do so at the end with the Ki avatar. He has to resort to a powered-up version of Sign to compete. This TUI was already stronger than UE Vegeta and Gas, let alone the actual full power version with his emotions in check. As Merus said, "you won't fall to Moro, nor anyone else for that matter."

- By that metric, Moro comes afterwards. He's stated by Goku to be the strongest opponent he's faced, after both Broly and Jiren. And this was two power-ups before his strongest form.

- Merus is equal to Angel Moro but we don't know how much of his power he's kept.

- Jiren and Broly can go either way. Jiren is not only being used as a measuring stick until Superhero, he's an active ideal Goku and Vegeta are striving toward, Vegeta especially. If he was fodder, this wouldn't happen. I believe some promo material said Broly was stronger, but this is never actually said in the movie. They're both just compared to Gods of Destruction, with Broly being "maybe" stronger than Beerus, while Jiren is definitely stronger than a GoD. Plus, Broly didn't do all that well vs Gohan in the post-SH wrap-up.

- Gas > Vegeta in that same arc. UE being scaled to TUI brings it down a lot.

- Cell Max and Piccolo are just personal bias, you can argue they're above the other two, but I doubt Piccolo is stronger than Vegeta. Cell was closer to Piccolo than the was to Gohan.

If you want a more traditional list where you just assume everyone linearly gets stronger every arc, then:

1. Freeza
2. Gohan
3. Goku
4. Vegeta
5. Broly
6. Cell Max
7. Piccolo
8. Gas
9. Granolah
10. Moro

[DBZ Macky]

Where was this stated? Toyotaro specifically avoided saying Broly when discussing the strongest in the universe during the Granolah arc. And his performance in the post-Superhero scuffle indicates he's not up to par with the rest yet.

Yeah, Uchida said that Broly hasn't been surpassed and while Toyo didn't repeat it, he didn't shoot Uchida down either. He later went on to state that Goku, Vegeta and Granolah are the Top 3 in the Universe, though. I guess only time will tell how strong Broly is supposed to be at full power now but yeah putting him below the rest from what we've seen seems like the better idea.

2. Gohan
3. Goku

2) Beast Gohan.
5) UI Goku.

I do recall there being pages upon pages of discussions on Beast Gohan VS Goku so I don't want to bring it up again but what makes everyone here unanimously agree that Gohan is stronger now? From what I understood when I reread the chapter, Gohan can only use his full power in short bursts and Goku was able to easily push away Gohan despite being distracted by/noticing Broly's interest in the fight.

We have to take authorial intent into consideration as well. There's no way anyone on the team intends on actually making Gohan the strongest in the Goku & Vegeta show when they couldn't even give him a single scene or even a frame in Daima despite Nozawa being right there.

[ZombieVito]

I do recall there being pages upon pages of discussions on Beast Gohan VS Goku so I don't want to bring it up again but what makes everyone here unanimously agree that Gohan is stronger now? From what I understood when I reread the chapter, Gohan can only use his full power in short bursts and Goku was able to easily push away Gohan despite being distracted by/noticing Broly's interest in the fight.

We have to take authorial intent into consideration as well. There's no way anyone on the team intends on actually making Gohan the strongest in the Goku & Vegeta show when they couldn't even give him a single scene or even a frame in Daima despite Nozawa being right there.

1) Toriyama literally said Gohan was the strongest.
2) Enraged Beast Gohan not only outspeed UI Goku but took him out of the form easily. Gohan is undeniably stronger.

[DBZ Macky]

1) Toriyama literally said Gohan was the strongest.

"Or so it is said", he says. If we're really taking this at face value wouldn't that make him stronger than Zeno? Even if we just want it to limit the mortals in the Universe then wouldn't that include Black Freeza?

2) Enraged Beast Gohan not only outspeed UI Goku but took him out of the form easily.

It took Gohan powering up to his limit to do that while Goku didn't even use the Giant Avatar he used against Gas, so Goku was clearly not fighting at full power.

Gohan is undeniably stronger.

You would think Goku or anyone else would say something if that was the case.

When it's not definitively stated, do you really think it's anyone's intention to make Gohan the strongest? DBS Super Hero was supposed to be Piccolo's movie and Gohan wasn't even in Daima. There is no way Gohan isn't just going to be a jobber again.

[Hugo Boss]

I get the skepticism, Gohan’s track record in Super hasn’t exactly been consistent. But Toyotaro’s recent comments actually suggest that things might be shifting a bit.

In his interview about the Volume 24 cover, he explicitly says that Gohan, Piccolo, Goku, Vegeta, and Broly were drawn in their strongest forms to represent how they “balance each other out” in terms of power. That’s pretty notable, since it puts Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo on the same general tier as UI Goku and UE Vegeta.

Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re all exactly equal in raw strength. This balance could point to each of them excelling in different areas, like Gohan in bursts of raw power, Goku in agility and technique, Piccolo in perception and strategy, Vegeta in endurance and battle adaptability, Broly in sheer vitality and explosive growth, etc.

And yeah, he does imply that Black Freeza on the back cover is above them all, which only makes sense given how he one-shotted Goku and Vegeta. But the fact that Gohan and Piccolo are in that top 5 group says a lot about how Toyotaro sees them now. Whether they get consistent screentime is a different story, but power-wise, they’re definitely not a “jobber” anymore.

[ZombieVito]

We can finally put to rest the complete nonsense that was "Orange Piccolo is only SSB level".

No way to deny now that he's UI level, I'm so happy.

[Zephyr]

If Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan's power are "the same", then it's strange that Cell Max beat one but not the other.

[PhantomSaiyan]

If Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan's power are "the same", then it's strange that Cell Max beat one but not the other.

Unfortunately that won't matter, I bet we've both seen our fair share of people taking vague external statements over the actual events of the story lol

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We have to take authorial intent into consideration as well. There's no way anyone on the team intends on actually making Gohan the strongest in the Goku & Vegeta show when they couldn't even give him a single scene or even a frame in Daima despite Nozawa being right there.

It's almost like he was the main character of that particular saga. Crazy, right?

If Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan's power are "the same", then it's strange that Cell Max beat one but not the other.

Goku and Gohan's fight establishes Gohan still gets rage boosts in this form.

How many Namekians end up fusing?

Daizenshuu 4 says there's about 14 Warrior-types, and they all fuse in DBS.

There's something I wanted to say ever since July of 2019 when the Galactic Prisoners debuted..
Saganbo must have been anywhere between Guldo to Zarbon to be considered "insanely powerful" for the Galactic Patrol.

Vegeta only mentioned Trunks as he's merely a child and as he won't expect the Galactic Patrol to know whom the other Human Z-Fighters are. It's obvious that he didn't mean that Saganbo is in the millions.

All of Saganbo's lackeys fought the Z-Fighters after they have got empowered by Moro's dark magic. That wasn't their original power level.

In my opinion the original power levels of Moro's henchmen were:

1. OG-73i: 100,000
2. Saganbo: 27,000
3. Yuzun: 19,000
- Monster form: 25,000
4. Bikkura Quoitor: 20,000
5. Zauyogi: 17,000
6. Yunba: 14,000
7. Shimorekka: 9,500
8-10. Miza, Iwaza and Kikaza: 7,000 each
- Fusion: 21,000
11. Cranberry: 1,200

That's more or less where I have them too. Maybe a bit weaker, but definitely in that Guldo ~ Zarbon range.

The Metalman definitely has to be stronger if Magetta is of any indication. They didn't note Magetta was any stronger than the average Metalman.

U6's races tend to be stronger than U7 in general. Just look at the Saiyans.

[Zephyr]

Goku and Gohan's fight establishes Gohan still gets rage boosts in this form.

Are you talking about what he says to Goku after getting that clean hit?

"I boosted my chi just up to the point where I might snap...while still maintaining control. That's how I'd best describe it. For now, that's the best way I've found to draw out my own power."

[Hugo Boss]

When Toyotaro said they “balance each other”, it doesn’t mean they have the exact same power level, it just means they’re in the same general tier. Gohan and Piccolo bring different strengths to the table.

In the Cell Max fight, Piccolo had just unlocked his new form and was already worn down from earlier transformations and battles. Like we’ve seen with other characters (Goku, Vegeta, even Freeza) stacking transformations or using new forms for the first time comes with fatigue and inefficiency if used in succession or prolonged periods. That could’ve impacted how well he held up against Cell Max.

Meanwhile, Gohan’s Beast form likely has a higher raw power ceiling, especially fueled by his rage boosts, which is his signature trait. Piccolo, on the other hand, tends to shine more in perception and strategic thinking.

So, it’s not strange at all. They’re close in overall standing, but their individual performances can vary depending on the situation.

[ZombieVito]

Goku and Gohan's fight establishes Gohan still gets rage boosts in this form.

Are you talking about what he says to Goku after getting that clean hit?

"I boosted my chi just up to the point where I might snap...while still maintaining control. That's how I'd best describe it. For now, that's the best way I've found to draw out my own power."

Yeah. Gohan being able to boost himself with anger is the only way Orange Piccoo rivaling Goku and being weaker than Cell Max makes sense. Broly probably is the same as him as well.

Beast Gohan [Enraged]: 150
Cell Max [Hypothetical completed version]: 150
SSFP Broly [Enraged]: 135
Cell Max: 125
Beast Gohan: 100
UI Goku: 100
UE Vegeta: 100
SSFP Broly: 90
Cell Max [Damaged]: 90
Orange Piccolo: 85

Something like this I could roll with.

[DBFanGuy]

We can finally put to rest the complete nonsense that was "Orange Piccolo is only SSB level".

No way to deny now that he's UI level, I'm so happy.

This is awesome to see! I can’t wait to see these guys in action again. Glad Gohan and Piccolo are back with the big boys.

[Mr Baggins]

The Five Guys™ all roughly being in the same tier of strength is something I've been espousing in this thread since way back when these chapters were being published in V Jump. Confirmation's always nice, even if the material already made it obvious.

[Skar]

The Five Guys™ all roughly being in the same tier of strength is something I've been espousing in this thread since way back when these chapters were being published in V Jump. Confirmation's always nice, even if the material already made it obvious.

I wonder how it would be based on the old BoG scale.

10: Beerus
9.5: Blue Fusions?
9: Black Freeza
8.5: FP Cell Max?
8: The four Saiyans and Piccolo

It seems every time Goku gets closer to Beerus, the gap widens again. I'm not sure how he's going to catch up to Black Freeza or Beerus without a new form or really super completed mastery of UI. I still think we might get a SSJ White by combining SSJ with UI.

[Miracles]

The official translation does not have the fighters at the same power or tier roughly. It's left at a mystery with questions and concerns.
Which is in line with the actual fight scenes from CH.102/103 itself.

https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_3370.html

[Koitsukai]

I think I like this. Sure, they are not equals, the movie and the post-movie mini arc clarified that beyond any doubt, but them being roughly around the same level is something that we haven't seen ever since the Cell Games probably. Only now, it seems more like the gaps from the pre-ROSAT era.

[Benjamin-Simons-91]

So we are supposed to believe that Piccolo and Gohan managed to catch up to the soaring heights Goku and Vegeta and Broly via the short span of events in the movie portion of "Super Hero"? This makes them able to mop the floor with Jiren, and Moro. So flawed writing.

[Yuji]

So we are supposed to believe that Piccolo and Gohan managed to catch up to the soaring heights Goku and Vegeta and Broly via the short span of events in the movie portion of "Super Hero"? This makes them able to mop the floor with Jiren, and Moro. So flawed writing.

Gohan was already relative to Goku's SSG/SSB forms even in the ToP and Moro arcs.