Why scaling matters

[Gokube]

17, Freeza, Broly, Gohan or whoever it is reaching god tier can make some semblance of sense if you really stretch the logic, but the problem is that it's just narratively less good and interesting than what we've had before for them to do so in the way that it's written with the context of what ssjg was presented as. If it was just another ssj form, then fair enough, but it isn't.

Raditz arriving and smashing the status of our characters out of whack was interesting because it took everything Goku did in Dragon Ball where we thought he was a prodigy and told us he was actually an average alien. Then, over the entirety of Dragon Ball but especially against Vegeta and Freeza it showed us that the fundamental basics and life lessons Goku learnt on Earth let him *become* the strongest saiyan to ever live. That's good.

Then Battle Of Gods rolls up and smashes everything in Z out of the water but this is okay, because Beerus is a god of destruction who has been asleep for all of Goku's life. When Goku goes through the ritual, it isn't just another ssj form, Goku says it's an unfathomable amount of power he couldn't dream of attaining on his own.

Raditz was an alien who expanded the possibilities from just Earth to the entire universe. Beerus was a god of destruction who expanded it from just the entire universe to the most powerful gods who have the power to destroy all reality. Goku had to take on the aliens to climb to their level and beyond. Then we had androids as enhanced beings beyond natural limits, even if that was a bit hard to believe as well, especially with the androids, but Cell made sense, then we had a magical demon as old as time immemorial.

Goku is not some naive guy stuck only on Earth when Beerus arrives. He blows the scale up to new heights which need new methods. Rituals and training by angels. When Gohan proved he has more potential than Goku, he still had to do the same training Goku did to surpass him. I don't care how much potential Broly has, him casually being at the level of beings who can destroy entire universes is not narratively interesting. It undermines everything Goku and Vegeta have been through. Gohan leapfrogging everyone by training alone on Earth is not believable or interesting. Ssjg is presented as power not attainable through non-descript off-screen training. Why didn't 17 become god tier in the 7 years between Cell and Boo? Why weren't the androids in the future getting god tier stronger for the 20+ years they tormented Gohan and Trunks?

[Hugo Boss]

The thing is, within the specific narrative context of Battle of Gods, SSG matched 60% of Beerus’ full strength. Since then, Super has expanded so much that SSG became obsolete fairly quickly, all in pursuit of matching or surpassing Beerus. By now, we’re dealing with a Goku who might not even be at that level, even after all of his most recent developments. 17, Broly and Gohan are still far below that spectrum as well. Freeza might be the only one approaching that range with his black form.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Spoiler:

17, Freeza, Broly, Gohan or whoever it is reaching god tier can make some semblance of sense if you really stretch the logic, but the problem is that it's just narratively less good and interesting than what we've had before for them to do so in the way that it's written with the context of what ssjg was presented as. If it was just another ssj form, then fair enough, but it isn't.

Raditz arriving and smashing the status of our characters out of whack was interesting because it took everything Goku did in Dragon Ball where we thought he was a prodigy and told us he was actually an average alien. Then, over the entirety of Dragon Ball but especially against Vegeta and Freeza it showed us that the fundamental basics and life lessons Goku learnt on Earth let him *become* the strongest saiyan to ever live. That's good.

Then Battle Of Gods rolls up and smashes everything in Z out of the water but this is okay, because Beerus is a god of destruction who has been asleep for all of Goku's life. When Goku goes through the ritual, it isn't just another ssj form, Goku says it's an unfathomable amount of power he couldn't dream of attaining on his own.

Raditz was an alien who expanded the possibilities from just Earth to the entire universe. Beerus was a god of destruction who expanded it from just the entire universe to the most powerful gods who have the power to destroy all reality. Goku had to take on the aliens to climb to their level and beyond. Then we had androids as enhanced beings beyond natural limits, even if that was a bit hard to believe as well, especially with the androids, but Cell made sense, then we had a magical demon as old as time immemorial.

Goku is not some naive guy stuck only on Earth when Beerus arrives. He blows the scale up to new heights which need new methods. Rituals and training by angels. When Gohan proved he has more potential than Goku, he still had to do the same training Goku did to surpass him. I don't care how much potential Broly has, him casually being at the level of beings who can destroy entire universes is not narratively interesting. It undermines everything Goku and Vegeta have been through. Gohan leapfrogging everyone by training alone on Earth is not believable or interesting. Ssjg is presented as power not attainable through non-descript off-screen training. Why didn't 17 become god tier in the 7 years between Cell and Boo? Why weren't the androids in the future getting god tier stronger for the 20+ years they tormented Gohan and Trunks?

The biggest difference between the classic series and Super is that there was once a logical progression in power; we saw these characters gradually get stronger as time went on. The problem with Super is that it left all these characters behind for so long, then decided out of nowhere to use them again, eliminating any chance of a natural growth in strength. If Gohan and the others were allowed to follow in Goku and Vegeta's footsteps by training with Whis, we wouldn't have any of these power scaling issues. In the original DB & Z, characters would generally do whatever Goku was doing. Once he trained with Korin, so did they. After he trained with Kami, they followed suit. Following their death at Nappa's hands, they trained with King Kai just as he did. Goku was always a few steps ahead of everyone, but it made sense as to how they were still considered strong; we saw them take that journey of power growth. Super has none of that; one minute a character is weak, then next he's the strongest. There's no logic or rules being followed to justify it. Plain and simple, it's just bad writing. Speaking of the original, I miss how back then Goku and his friends would regularly change their training regiment and who they would train with; now it's just Whis 24/7 for Goku and Vegeta, and free power ups for everyone else.

[Koitsukai]

Spoiler:

17, Freeza, Broly, Gohan or whoever it is reaching god tier can make some semblance of sense if you really stretch the logic, but the problem is that it's just narratively less good and interesting than what we've had before for them to do so in the way that it's written with the context of what ssjg was presented as. If it was just another ssj form, then fair enough, but it isn't.

Raditz arriving and smashing the status of our characters out of whack was interesting because it took everything Goku did in Dragon Ball where we thought he was a prodigy and told us he was actually an average alien. Then, over the entirety of Dragon Ball but especially against Vegeta and Freeza it showed us that the fundamental basics and life lessons Goku learnt on Earth let him *become* the strongest saiyan to ever live. That's good.

Then Battle Of Gods rolls up and smashes everything in Z out of the water but this is okay, because Beerus is a god of destruction who has been asleep for all of Goku's life. When Goku goes through the ritual, it isn't just another ssj form, Goku says it's an unfathomable amount of power he couldn't dream of attaining on his own.

Raditz was an alien who expanded the possibilities from just Earth to the entire universe. Beerus was a god of destruction who expanded it from just the entire universe to the most powerful gods who have the power to destroy all reality. Goku had to take on the aliens to climb to their level and beyond. Then we had androids as enhanced beings beyond natural limits, even if that was a bit hard to believe as well, especially with the androids, but Cell made sense, then we had a magical demon as old as time immemorial.

Goku is not some naive guy stuck only on Earth when Beerus arrives. He blows the scale up to new heights which need new methods. Rituals and training by angels. When Gohan proved he has more potential than Goku, he still had to do the same training Goku did to surpass him. I don't care how much potential Broly has, him casually being at the level of beings who can destroy entire universes is not narratively interesting. It undermines everything Goku and Vegeta have been through. Gohan leapfrogging everyone by training alone on Earth is not believable or interesting. Ssjg is presented as power not attainable through non-descript off-screen training. Why didn't 17 become god tier in the 7 years between Cell and Boo? Why weren't the androids in the future getting god tier stronger for the 20+ years they tormented Gohan and Trunks?

The biggest difference between the classic series and Super is that there was once a logical progression in power; we saw these characters gradually get stronger as time went on. The problem with Super is that it left all these characters behind for so long, then decided out of nowhere to use them again, eliminating any chance of a natural growth in strength. If Gohan and the others were allowed to follow in Goku and Vegeta's footsteps by training with Whis, we wouldn't have any of these power scaling issues. In the original DB & Z, characters would generally do whatever Goku was doing. Once he trained with Korin, so did they. After he trained with Kami, they followed suit. Following their death at Nappa's hands, they trained with King Kai just as he did. Goku was always a few steps ahead of everyone, but it made sense as to how they were still considered strong; we saw them take that journey of power growth. Super has none of that; one minute a character is weak, then next he's the strongest. There's no logic or rules being followed to justify it. Plain and simple, it's just bad writing. Speaking of the original, I miss how back then Goku and his friends would regularly change their training regiment and who they would train with; now it's just Whis 24/7 for Goku and Vegeta, and free power ups for everyone else.

Now, this I can agree with.
None of us is budging in regards of how people got stronger, to me it makes sense(mostly the main ones, not the conflicting scaling stemming from the anime's lousy and contradicting production), to others it doesn't; but the when sure is something I have problems with.
For the entirety of the DBS run, the anime in particular, those who are now among the strongest and even THE strongest, were nothing but fodder/afterthoughts. Piccolo in the manga was lame for 8/9 arcs, Gohan was useless for 5/9... and stronger but still useless for 3 out of the 4 last arcs.
They were yesterday's news for most of the show and ended up being top contenders in the 11th hour. I mean, think about the fun things we could've seen if Ultimate Piccolo was introduced 5 arcs prior or if Gohan didn't have to wait 5 arcs to get some development going on. Maybe I can give Gohan's case a pass because he had other things he cared about and that's fair, but Piccolo was right there all along, being a joke.

[super michael]

Here is an example of bad power scale. Berserk Kale was able to tank SSB Goku with his Kamehameha, tanking that should make Kale SSB+ tier. However later on she gains control of her Berserk form, which is stated to be stronger than before, however she struggles against SSJ2 Goku when he is tired.

SSJ2 Goku tired > Controlled Kale > Berserk Kale > SSB Goku Kamehameha
That doesn't make any sense at all.

So SSB Goku is too weak to do anything to Kale, but SSJ2 Goku is strong enough to fight Kale.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Here is an example of bad power scale. Berserk Kale was able to tank SSB Goku with his Kamehameha, tanking that should make Kale SSB+ tier. However later on she gains control of her Berserk form, which is stated to be stronger than before, however she struggles against SSJ2 Goku when he is tired.

The show is full of major inconsistencies like this, with your particular example being one of the worst ones. There was clearly no coordination between the writers of the show, resulting in each episode doing its own thing, regardless of whether or not it lined up with what came before. Berserk Kale being a Ssj2 level actually makes sense, for the simple fact that SsjG and SsjB should be beyond anything a mortal can achieve. Kefla in the manga being equal to Gohan's Mystic form was far more logical than Ultra Instinct of all things like she was in the anime. The more I think about it, the more I realize that Super was the worst written animated content this franchise has ever produced.

[ScouterSSJ]

Anime DBS was written like Dragon Ball GT, so I don't think it even has any proper scaling.
Toei does what it wants at any time, without caring even a bit about plot consistency (one of the worst examples, to me, is SSJ3 Goku beating SSJ2 Trunks, but then against Black Rosé and Zamatsu SSJ2 Trunks performing better than SSJBlue Goku).

From the manga (a much, much better product thanks to having Toriyama's supervision) the only power-up I don't think has been properly justified are androids A17 and A18 (and Super Hero Gohan, but that was a problem from the movie that would've needed a major re-write. Such a shame that wasn't done when he remade it, it'd have made for a more interesting read T_T).

[SupremeKai25]

Anime DBS was written like Dragon Ball GT, so I don't think it even has any proper scaling.

This. It's strange how some people expected a Toei-led Anime to somehow have a different philosophy than... literally any other Toei-led animated content in history. And a better comparison would be with the DBZ movies.

Toei has always, always, ALWAYS favored badass, cool factor over logic.

How is it that 30 years old something DBZ fans loved it as kids when Goku literally got all asspulls imaginable to K.O. people like Broly, Cooler, or Lord Slug (like, what the hell were those asspulls?! Goku deadass turned Super Saiyan because he watched some random bird die lmfao, how I wish that movie came out in 2025 to watch it get massacred online), but they just can't tolerate Trunks killing Fused Zamasu with 30 people? How is Super Saiyan Rage Trunks literally any different from that weird, ugly form from that Lord Slug movie?

Just because Toei is now leading a flagship anime instead of a side movie doesn't mean they're simply gonna change their whole philosophy when approaching Dragon Ball.

And, for the record, there's nothing wrong with favoring spectacle over substance or logic.

When I watch an animated show, I expect to be amazed by spectacle, not to have a math lesson about how all the calcs make sense, all the numbers fit together, or whatever it is power-scalers are complaining about when it comes to Super Anime.

[super michael]

Anime DBS was written like Dragon Ball GT, so I don't think it even has any proper scaling.

This. It's strange how some people expected a Toei-led Anime to somehow have a different philosophy than... literally any other Toei-led animated content in history. And a better comparison would be with the DBZ movies.

Toei has always, always, ALWAYS favored badass, cool factor over logic.

How is it that 30 years old something DBZ fans loved it as kids when Goku literally got all asspulls imaginable to K.O. people like Broly, Cooler, or Lord Slug (like, what the hell were those asspulls?! Goku deadass turned Super Saiyan because he watched some random bird die lmfao, how I wish that movie came out in 2025 to watch it get massacred online), but they just can't tolerate Trunks killing Fused Zamasu with 30 people? How is Super Saiyan Rage Trunks literally any different from that weird, ugly form from that Lord Slug movie?

Just because Toei is now leading a flagship anime instead of a side movie doesn't mean they're simply gonna change their whole philosophy when approaching Dragon Ball.

And, for the record, there's nothing wrong with favoring spectacle over substance or logic.

When I watch an animated show, I expect to be amazed by spectacle, not to have a math lesson about how all the calcs make sense, all the numbers fit together, or whatever it is power-scalers are complaining about when it comes to Super Anime.

There is no difference between Goku form in Lord of Slug and DBS Future Trunks SSJ Rage form.

Rage used to be the way to how one activates SSJ, when they can't transform at will, so it makes sense for Goku to transform from seeing birds get hurt.

Goku gained the powers of his allies and hit Brolly in his weak spot.
Gohan used Lord Slug weakness to distract and weaken him, so Goku managed to beat him.


In Digimon anime there are normally logic to the battle and story, with the exception being Digimon Adventure Reboot which is full of PIS and bad writing. Digimon Appmon I can't comment since I didn't watch it.

Digimon = Toei


It is funny DBS and Digimon Adventure Reboot are from the same generation and Toei handled them really bad.

[ScouterSSJ]

There is no difference between Goku form in Lord of Slug and DBS Future Trunks SSJ Rage form.

Rage used to be the way to how one activates SSJ, when they can't transform at will, so it makes sense for Goku to transform from seeing birds get hurt.

Goku gained the powers of his allies and hit Brolly in his weak spot.
Gohan used Lord Slug weakness to distract and weaken him, so Goku managed to beat him.


In Digimon anime there are normally logic to the battle and story, with the exception being Digimon Adventure Reboot which is full of PIS and bad writing. Digimon Appmon I can't comment since I didn't watch it.

Digimon = Toei


It is funny DBS and Digimon Adventure Reboot are from the same generation and Toei handled them really bad.

Yup, but that's because they're equally bad. Trunks rage form makes absolutely no sense, he could've gotten at any time and should've gotten it much sooner if it wasn't the asspull it was.
Manga Black arc is much better written even if it still has some problems due to Toyotaro (which also tends to prioritize badassness over plot logic and proper power-scaling).

Toei has very bad writers absolutely unable to handle Dragon Ball, and it shows T_T

[SupremeKai25]

There is no difference between Goku form in Lord of Slug and DBS Future Trunks SSJ Rage form.

Rage used to be the way to how one activates SSJ, when they can't transform at will, so it makes sense for Goku to transform from seeing birds get hurt.

Goku gained the powers of his allies and hit Brolly in his weak spot.
Gohan used Lord Slug weakness to distract and weaken him, so Goku managed to beat him.


In Digimon anime there are normally logic to the battle and story, with the exception being Digimon Adventure Reboot which is full of PIS and bad writing. Digimon Appmon I can't comment since I didn't watch it.

Digimon = Toei


It is funny DBS and Digimon Adventure Reboot are from the same generation and Toei handled them really bad.

Yup, but that's because they're equally bad. Trunks rage form makes absolutely no sense, he could've gotten at any time and should've gotten it much sooner if it wasn't the asspull it was.
Manga Black arc is much better written even if it still has some problems due to Toyotaro (which also tends to prioritize badassness over plot logic and proper power-scaling).

Toei has very bad writers absolutely unable to handle Dragon Ball, and it shows T_T

It's hard to keep a coherent, logical power-scaling when different episodes are written by different writers. One writer might think Android 17 should just be a support character, another writer might conclude that 17 should be able to mess with Full Power Jiren.

It's not that the writers are dumb or incompetent (and it's not like Toyotaro is a genius or anything), it's just that there's multiple writers with clashing viewpoints. And since the Anime preceded the Manga and was the mainstream product, they can't exactly just adapt what the mangaka did.

As well, Toei likes to make flashy stuff for spectacle. Why would they change their philosophy? An entire generation grew up fawning over their badly-written movies to the point that 30 years later people are still begging to make a Canon version of Cooler. They made a Canon version of Broly supervised by Toriyama, a movie that's just 10% backstory and 90% brainless, flashy fights, and it's the most successful Dragon Ball movie ever.

We can all agree that there's more spectacle and "wow" in the anime than the manga, yes?

It might make more sense that Fused Zamasu can only replicate other people's techniques instead of pulling out new ones from his ass, but what Anime Zamasu did looks way cooler than just random stone blocks or random Janemba portals. We can agree that Kefla shouldn't be Ultra Instinct level, but Kefla vs. Gohan looks way lamer and more boring than Kefla vs. UI Goku who does a sliding Kamehameha. And so on. Anime Trunks shouldn't be that strong, but what's cooler, creating some sort of Spirit Bomb and imbuing into a spirit sword, or playing nurse maid to the main characters?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

It's strange how some people expected a Toei-led Anime to somehow have a different philosophy than... literally any other Toei-led animated content in history.

If you're going to use Toriyama's name to market your show, then naturally people are going to expect it to be more consistent and of a higher quality than projects that he wasn't directly involved with. We found out recently that he didn't particularly care to work on it, so that explains that lack of care by everyone else involved.

[SupremeKai25]

It's strange how some people expected a Toei-led Anime to somehow have a different philosophy than... literally any other Toei-led animated content in history.

If you're going to use Toriyama's name to market your show, then naturally people are going to expect it to be more consistent and of a higher quality than projects that he wasn't directly involved with. We found out recently that he didn't particularly care to work on it, so that explains that lack of care by everyone else involved.

Including the overworked artists and writers who had to deliver a product of that scale in 3 months?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Including the overworked artists and writers who had to deliver a product of that scale in 3 months?

No one's blaming the animators for how things turned out on the production side of things; they did their best with what little they had to work with. The writing side of things however was clearly a different story, as unlike the animation side that improved over time, the writing didn't. Super's writing issues were the result of both a lack of enthusiasm for the project on Toriyama's end (as stated by his editors a couple months ago), and a lack of understanding of his world and characters by the actual episode writers. Super's writers, whether on their own or under pressure from management, seemed to try to make Dragon Ball as close to One Piece as possible. More often than not, Super felt like a One Piece wannabe, rather than Dragon Ball. This was thankfully not an issue in Daima, which may have been due to Toriyama's heavy involvement with the series compared to Super.