How strong is the fusion dance

[super michael]

Basically I am curious to see members opinions on how strong the fusion dance is.

In my opinion I think SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks > Base Gotenks, lets use Namek Saga power level that we know:

Goten = 3m
Trunks = 3m
SSJ = 150m
SSJ2 = 300m
SSJ3 = 1.2b

Base fusion: (3m + 3m) * 10 = 60m
SSJ: 60m * 50 = 3b
SSJ fusion: (150m + 150m) * 10 = 3b

So even if the base fusion is weaker than the individual SSJ forms, when the fusion transforms into SSJ they end up stronger than their SSJ3 if they have it as individuals.

[Koitsukai]

There is no formula, no matter what some ancillary material might want you to believe, the author never said how it worked, and rightly so, this was never an exact science kinda show.
And that would've defeated its main purpose: to be as strong as needed to be when required. If it followed a mathematical formula, then if needed to be used again, it would've been too OP or not strong enough for the situation they were supposed to take part in. And fusion was used twice in its introducting arc, although through different means for it.

However, we can gauge its product by seeing how strong fusions tend to be in base.

Anime Vegito > way stronger than whatever SS3 Goku could've possibly done.
Manga Vegito > unclear, he could still be stronger than SS3 Goku and as strong as he was in the anime.

Anime and Manga Gotenks > weaker than Fat Buu, should be stronger than SS Trunks to justify his hubris and recklessness and also to justify Gotenks surviving and being able to escape, something SS Gohan wasn't able to do.

Anime and Manga Gotenks post ROSAT > weaker than Super Buu, stronger than SS Trunks for sure if he was before.
--as SS > stronger than SS3 Goku, if they could fight off a suppressed Super Buu for a while.
-- as SS3 > stronger than Super Buu.

Manga DBS Vegito > stronger than SSB saiyans.
Anime DBS Vegito > unclear.

Movie DBS Gogeta > stronger than SSB saiyans.
Z Gogeta > unclear.
GT Gogeta > unclear.

So, we can conclude fusions, when their base level is shown, is stronger than the strongest form of the fusees.

[super michael]

I guess Base Gotenks surviving against Fat Buu, does make Base Gotenks stronger than their individual SSJ.
Gohan would have died against Fat Buu, if it wasn't for Kaioshin and later Kibito.

So Base Gotenks > SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks.

[Dragon15]

Instead of numbers, I think in tiers.

For me base gotenks = adult ssj2 since he survived fat buu
gotenks ssj1 = adult ssj3 because he was supposed to beat fat buu in this form

For me fusion Dance is 1 tier lower than potala fusion.
Gogeta ssj1 = vegeto base

Gogeta ssj1 = adult ssj 3,5 = vegeto base


For me, the gap between kids and adult is not enormous since trunks almost hit végéta during training and scared c18. I put half a transformation of différence in power. Or maybe a Little less than between goku/vegeta ssj during android saga and goku/gohan during cell game.

[Hugo Boss]

I think most people are familiar with the notion that Fusion is far more potent than a simple addition of power levels. In fact, the multiplier effect is so drastic that some guides imply it as the two fighters’ powers being multiplied together (or close to it).

As for games, while they still downplay Gotenks compared to Goku, his power was such in the manga that in his SS3 form he was the only character besides Gohan who could challenge Super Boo. That speaks volumes about how effective Fusion is, at least for the kids, considering Goten and Trunks probably couldn’t challenge Goku or Vegeta even if they fought together.

We also see this pattern with Gogeta. SS Gogeta completely outmatched SS Broly, even when Goku and Vegeta couldn’t do anything with SS Blue as a team. In GT, guides describe SS4 Gogeta as tens of times stronger than SS4 Goku, which reinforces how extreme the boost is for them.

If we’re going by these implications, a Super Saiyan Fusion really seems to grant a new tier of power surpassing transformations like SS3, even in its early uses. That’s why Base Gotenks likely is stronger than SS Goten or Trunks, even if sometimes it won’t feel that way using simple math calcs.

[Yuji]

The base form of the fusion is stronger than the fusees' strongest forms, or very comparable. That's the only given.

[Dragon15]

I put gogeta ssj1 below gotenks ssj3.
I dont think goku/vegeta ssj1 are stronger than a goten/trunks ssj3.

In the fusion movie, goku ssj3 is able to last a Little vs janemba. Gogeta ssj1 only needs to be a little tier above goku ssj3 to win against janemba.

Vegeto ssj1 did the same against buuhan who is multiple times stronger than goku ssj3. Buuhan combine super buu and gohan who are both much stronger than goku ssj3 + goten, trunks and picolo.

Gogeta ssj1 beat janemba who is maybe worth 1,5 times goku ssj3.

Vegeto did the same against someone who is maybe 3-4 Times goku.

As for the gogeta in the broly movie, I feel like the power up of the fusion is much stronger than in the fusion movie.
If gogeta ssj1 was always this strong(stronger than ssj blue) why didn’t they use fusion against berus instead of the ssj god.

[Koitsukai]

I put gogeta ssj1 below gotenks ssj3.
I dont think goku/vegeta ssj1 are stronger than a goten/trunks ssj3.

In the fusion movie, goku ssj3 is able to last a Little vs janemba. Gogeta ssj1 only needs to be a little tier above goku ssj3 to win against janemba.

Vegeto ssj1 did the same against buuhan who is multiple times stronger than goku ssj3. Buuhan combine super buu and gohan who are both much stronger than goku ssj3 + goten, trunks and picolo.

Gogeta ssj1 beat janemba who is maybe worth 1,5 times goku ssj3.

Vegeto did the same against someone who is maybe 3-4 Times goku.

As for the gogeta in the broly movie, I feel like the power up of the fusion is much stronger than in the fusion movie.
If gogeta ssj1 was always this strong(stronger than ssj blue) why didn’t they use fusion against berus instead of the ssj god.

I think you could get away with base Gogeta being below SS3 Gotenks, but SS Gogeta is just too much. The gap between Vegito and Gogeta cannot be that big, the rival boost shouldn't be so much. Yeah, Vegito should be stronger due to that, but to be worlds apart is unnecessary and nothing really supports it.
That would mean SS Gogeta is one step above SS3 Goku, which wouldn't even make sense because he'd be at least like if SS3 Goku turned SS.
Gogeta destroyed in no time someone much weaker than Buuhan, there's no way to tell where he caps at. Vegito played around because he had an agenda.

About BoG and Gogeta, he wasn't that strong since the beginning. Fusion isn't static, it depends on how strong the fusees are at that given moment. In BoG, the fusees's full power was somewhat stronger than Kid Buu; in the Broly movie, they were as strong as Toppo. Of course, the outcome of their fusion would be the strongest to date.
BoG SS Gogeta/Vegito could never be stronger than a form his fusee's don't even have so far.

[Dragon15]

Both gogeta and vegeto have rival boost. They are both born from the same fighters.
And il was stated from the begining that potala fusion is stronger. It didn’t state how much.

Fusion dépend of the power of the fighter when they fuse, not their potential.
During the ToP, they are at Toppo level with ssjblue, not ssj1.

The problem with power debates, is that everyone can’t accept that goku ssj3 is weak.
They can’t accept that gotenks ssj3 and gohan are much much stronger.
That is why people have à hard time accepting ssj1 gotenks at goku ssj3 level. Or base gotenks who survived fat buu at goku ssj2 level. Because it would mean gotenks ssj3 and gohan are far above goku.
If base gotenks was barely above goten/trunks ssj1, how could he survive fat buu. Goten/trunks did see fat buu beat végéta ssj2. How could they Even think of fighting fat buu if they were much weaker than vegeta ssj2?


And people have a hard time accepting the enormous gap between gogeta and vegeto because it would mean gogeta is weak.

And as for dragon ball super. I don’t like to use it in debate on the manga. Dragon ball super power levels make barely more sense than in dragon ball gt.


In the end, why gotenks ssj3 and gohan couldn’t be 10x stronger than goku ssj3?
And why vegeto couldn’t be 10x stronger than gogeta?

[Koitsukai]

In the end, why gotenks ssj3 and gohan couldn’t be 10x stronger than goku ssj3?
And why vegeto couldn’t be 10x stronger than gogeta?

1) 10x sounds like too much when 2x, 3x and even 5x are great and more than enough, but it could be possible, sure. Although, I haven't found anyone that believes Goku is stronger than them. People who can read, that is.
With that gap in mind, SS Gogeta is clearly above SS3 Gotenks, unless you are saying the fusion dance turning SS does not even make the fusee 10x stronger. Literally, every other fusion dance iteration prove the opposite.

2) Because both are made of the same people. What's making one 10x stronger than the other when the power source is the same?

[Dragon15]

In the end, why gotenks ssj3 and gohan couldn’t be 10x stronger than goku ssj3?
And why vegeto couldn’t be 10x stronger than gogeta?

1) 10x sounds like too much when 2x, 3x and even 5x are great and more than enough, but it could be possible, sure. Although, I haven't found anyone that believes Goku is stronger than them. People who can read, that is.
With that gap in mind, SS Gogeta is clearly above SS3 Gotenks, unless you are saying the fusion dance turning SS does not even make the fusee 10x stronger. Literally, every other fusion dance iteration prove the opposite.

2) Because both are made of the same people. What's making one 10x stronger than the other when the power source is the same?

1) In super maybe but not in the buu arc manga. In super, goku and végéta are 100x stronger. But in manga buu arc, the gap between goku/vegeta and goten/trunks is not that big. Trunks almost hit vegeta in training, and given that, do you think vegeta ssj1 is stronger than a trunks ssj3?
If not, why should it be different between gotenks and gogeta?
And I don’t believe that the rival boost is that big. And even if it was, I remind you than goten and trunks are rivals too.

2) it is not about who fuse, it is about HOW they fuse. Potala was state to havé a stronger effect.