Dragon Ball power-levels until Cell (manga)

[CodeOfMe]

By the way, I'll put here in images the breakdown of Toriyama's words by an AI, because I assume there's lots of fans whose mother-tongue is not english and so they at least aren't fooled by your tactics

Oh, since ChatGPT stated it, it must be true! (Actually, it does still say that 50x is the official number, and that the 10x boost was only what Toriyama felt it was while drawing it, so I'm not sure it's really supporting your point.) OK, let's be serious, AI chatbots don't know anything and constantly suck up to the user -- they're hardly citable sources.

I don't really care for powerscaling at all, so, uh, I don't have much involvement in all this. But I do think it's strange to try and frame Super Saiyan as a mere ten-times boost (I haven't seen the video yet, but this seems to be what you're implying? My apologies if I've misconstrued your point). Goku uses Kaioken x20 against Freeza, who is only supposed to be using 50% of his power at this point, and it doesn't deal much damage. Freeza later goes to 100% (and I've seen all the talk in the replies above, so whatever, take it as him going to only 70% of his full power if you want, that doesn't change my point), and Goku, as a Super Saiyan, is clearly overpowering him. Clearly, Super Saiyan gives more than a 20x increase in that case; if you really think that (supposed) full-power Freeza was weaker than his 50% self who tanked the Kaioken Kamehameha, then that doesn't matter: After this point in the manga, Goku never uses Kaioken again (ignoring Super and filler); he used Kaioken x20, and still managed to fight off Freeza for several more minutes afterwards, so clearly his body can withstand the drawback of Kaioken x20 -- and if he can withstand that, and Super Saiyan is less than a 20x multiplier, then why would Goku never use Kaioken again?

Heck, after the 3 years of training, you could assume that Goku would be capable of withstanding Kaioken x25 or x30 -- it would make sense, considering Goku went from Kaioken x4 as a limit to x20 as a limit after only two near-death power-ups and six days of gravity training -- three years of training would assumedly give better results than that.

Basically, tl;dr: Super Saiyan should be more than a multiplier of 20, or perhaps even 30; Caramel Mama (or whoever decided on Super Saiyan being 50x for the Daizenshuu) decided that since Freeza at 50% withstood Kaioken x20, then a Freeza of twice that strength, at 100%, would be equivalent to about x40, so Super Saiyan would have to be more than that, thus it's a 50x multiplier. And that does check out with Goku never using Kaioken again once he's unlocked Super Saiyan. In any case, Super Saiyan basically has to be bigger than a 20x multiplier, so Toriyama's comment about seeing it as ten-times clearly isn't supposed to be taken as the in-universe truth; it was just how he felt when he was drawing it.

(God, I said I didn't care for powerscaling and still wrote four paragraphs about it...)

[Koitsukai]

Right, if KK > SS, then every single thing related to the SS legend (Goku's power up, Vegeta's hope, Freeza's 4-decade-long fear) is undermined, it's a red herring (a red herring that becomes an actual weapon later on, while the real power up is never seen again, huh?).

The evidence? subtext of subtext of subtext and questionable interpretations disregarding the most obvious interpretation of a children-aimed show's final fight.

Time is a flat circle.

[Salt-sensei]

I'm all for lower battle powers and low multipliers, but the only way I can see SS being a 10x multiplier is if it's more efficient than Kaiou-ken, as in less strains in the body and a slower power decay. That and being a 50x multiplier after the RoSaT training, otherwise, there's no point in using it instead of 20xKK.

[dbgtFO]

Is this freezamite again

Definitely giving me lots of deja vu of his heyday here with the exact same garbage arguments

koitsukai already provided the quote that puts this to bed, so yeah.