Everyone just collectively forgot about Daima's first 18 episodes.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

There's something critical to be said of the production committee members for creating a project that was broadcast weekly for five months and yet it completely disappeared from the zeitgeist afterward.

If you are a stakeholder then sure but, as a consumer and fan, why does it matter? Can things not just have their time in the limelight and be done? What's the obsession with long/perpetual retention in the zeitgeist?

[JulieYBM]

There's something critical to be said of the production committee members for creating a project that was broadcast weekly for five months and yet it completely disappeared from the zeitgeist afterward.

If you are a stakeholder then sure but, as a consumer and fan, why does it matter? Can things not just have their time in the limelight and be done? What's the obsession with long/perpetual retention in the zeitgeist?

I'm approaching this purely from my position as someone who enjoys watching television anime and as someone who partakes in creating art herself. I think it's a shame to the people behind this series that something happened behind the scenes that round up rendering Dragon Ball Daima entirely uninspired enough for even those watching it to not be invested in it.

[LoganForkHands73]

I don't think there always has to be something horribly tragic going on behind the scenes to justify why a project didn't leave a lasting cultural impact. It might boil down to timing, general lack of interest, or maybe it just didn't turn out as well as they thought. By all accounts, everyone involved in Daima had more than enough time to get their shit together. And I don't think they necessarily failed on their apparent objective, which was to simply create an entertaining adventure story paying tribute to early Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT. I think the show's fundamental lack of ambition was its main issue, in hindsight.

[JulieYBM]

I don't think there always has to be something horribly tragic going on behind the scenes to justify why a project didn't leave a lasting cultural impact. It might boil down to timing, general lack of interest, or maybe it just didn't turn out as well as they thought. By all accounts, everyone involved in Daima had more than enough time to get their shit together. And I don't think they necessarily failed on their apparent objective, which was to simply create an entertaining adventure story paying tribute to early Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT. I think the show's fundamental lack of ambition was its main issue, in hindsight.

That's the issue that I'm getting at. Something went to lead to the series being the way it is and I'm wondering what exactly that was and on what level.

[Koitsukai]

How about it being a 20-episode standalone series with no connection to the other sequels? I mean, it belongs to its own universe.
Had there been any links to DBS or even GT, and we'd probably still be trying to connect Rymus and Zeno, wondering if SS4 will make an appearence in the next production(Black Freeza arc), or see how the new lore fits in the existing continuity.

Or not, maybe it would still be a dead subject. Truth is there is nothing much more to say about it, since it's over and there weren't many loose threads left.

[LoganForkHands73]

I don't think there always has to be something horribly tragic going on behind the scenes to justify why a project didn't leave a lasting cultural impact. It might boil down to timing, general lack of interest, or maybe it just didn't turn out as well as they thought. By all accounts, everyone involved in Daima had more than enough time to get their shit together. And I don't think they necessarily failed on their apparent objective, which was to simply create an entertaining adventure story paying tribute to early Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT. I think the show's fundamental lack of ambition was its main issue, in hindsight.

That's the issue that I'm getting at. Something went to lead to the series being the way it is and I'm wondering what exactly that was and on what level.

IMO, it's not even that deep. I don't think anything went spectacularly wrong, it was a series that just didn't turn out that great and that's really the long and short of it. It wasn't like Super where there were very obvious production and scheduling issues going on from the beginning. Maybe some juice comes out that proves me wrong but I'm not holding my breath.

[JulieYBM]

How about it being a 20-episode standalone series with no connection to the other sequels? I mean, it belongs to its own universe.
Had there been any links to DBS or even GT, and we'd probably still be trying to connect Rymus and Zeno, wondering if SS4 will make an appearence in the next production(Black Freeza arc), or see how the new lore fits in the existing continuity.

Or not, maybe it would still be a dead subject. Truth is there is nothing much more to say about it, since it's over and there weren't many loose threads left.

What does any of that have to do with making a good, memorable television series, though?

[JulieYBM]

I don't think there always has to be something horribly tragic going on behind the scenes to justify why a project didn't leave a lasting cultural impact. It might boil down to timing, general lack of interest, or maybe it just didn't turn out as well as they thought. By all accounts, everyone involved in Daima had more than enough time to get their shit together. And I don't think they necessarily failed on their apparent objective, which was to simply create an entertaining adventure story paying tribute to early Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT. I think the show's fundamental lack of ambition was its main issue, in hindsight.

That's the issue that I'm getting at. Something went to lead to the series being the way it is and I'm wondering what exactly that was and on what level.

IMO, it's not even that deep. I don't think anything went spectacularly wrong, it was a series that just didn't turn out that great and that's really the long and short of it. It wasn't like Super where there were very obvious production and scheduling issues going on from the beginning. Maybe some juice comes out that proves me wrong but I'm not holding my breath.

I want to preface this by stating that I'm trying not to be confrontational (well, not in a bitchy way): I do not believe that it is making a big deal to point out and suggest very obvious flaws in the writing of Dragon Ball Daima that most any writer or series director could have looked at and gone, "Hey, we need to make this make more sense from a character and storytelling point of view." Like, in writing you'd have very basic and normal story and character decisions that one would make, like giving your characters dramatic plot beats and motivations, and centering episodes around those things. Even if the series focused purely on developing the new characters to leave Gokuu and friends in stasis, the direct framing of the development for these new characters should have felt like more than afterthoughts.

Like, yeah. Daima didn't come together...but it shouldn't have been that hard to make it come together? I could swear that I spend the entire broadcast saying to myself that all the connective issues were easy fixes.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I think it's a shame to the people behind this series that something happened behind the scenes that round up rendering Dragon Ball Daima entirely uninspired enough for even those watching it to not be invested in it.

Unfortunately a lot of fans already made up their mind about the show before it began to air, or even before it was formally announced thanks to the leaks beforehand. You can tell that the animators put everything they had into every single frame of the show, as not a single second of this show ever looked bad or rushed. Toriyama, who was sick at the time, even said he put his all into it and was far more involved than he was with previous projects in this revival. Despite the clear attempt to give fans something special, it was clearly rejected in favor of mindless action and nostalgia, which is all Super was.

Daima didn't come together...but it shouldn't have been that hard to make it come together? I could swear that I spend the entire broadcast saying to myself that all the connective issues were easy fixes.

One of the producers said that the show was being animated BEFORE Toriyama was done writing the script, so at some points they had to work off vague outlines, then go back and adjust where possible when the scripts were delivered to them.

I don't think they necessarily failed to simply create an entertaining adventure story paying tribute to early Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT. I think the show's fundamental lack of ambition was its main issue, in hindsight.

I would say three things held it back:

1- The children: Turning the cast back into children was always going to be hard to sell due to the bad taste GT left in everyone's mouths. This is where the marketing truly failed the show, as demonstrating more of its epic moments would've at least helped open people up to the possibility of it working this time.

2- The timeline placement: We've been stuck in the 10 year time gap for over a decade now, and just as Superhero got us to the end of Z, they go back to the Buu era AGAIN. Why not set this after the end of Z instead ? Everything story-wise would've been the exact same, with the exception of the 3 or so minutes of Trunks' birthday party.

3- The Moro and Granola arcs: Starting a new story while two arcs of an already on-going story were still yet to be animated was never a good idea. You can't build hype and anticipation for one thing, only to go in a completely different direction and expect fans to go along with it. Fans would've been far more open to it had Super's story been over.

How about it being a 20-episode standalone series with no connection to the other sequels? I mean, it belongs to its own universe.

Daima doesn't even feel like its own series, it feels like an epilogue to the Buu arc. GT and Super, to some degree, can stand and function on their own; this show can't. It would've been far more appropriate to call it Dragon Ball Z: Daima.

[WittyUsername]

I think the fact that the most talked about parts of Daima are the shiny new transformations Goku and Vegeta got should once again reinforce that Dragon Ball is at its most popular when it’s firmly focused on the big flashy fights and high octane power levels, rather than the “adventure” or comedy. GT suffered from the same issue.

[LoganForkHands73]

Daima didn't come together...but it shouldn't have been that hard to make it come together? I could swear that I spend the entire broadcast saying to myself that all the connective issues were easy fixes.

One of the producers said that the show was being animated BEFORE Toriyama was done writing the script, so at some points they had to work off vague outlines, then go back and adjust where possible when the scripts were delivered to them.

The "Super problem" rears its head again. At first, I was willing to accept that any writing flaws in Daima were just down to bad luck/incompetence, but if this was the case, you'd think they'd have learned at that point not to be so slavishly deferent to Toriyama or get too far ahead of themselves with the animation.

I would say three things held it back:

1- The children: Turning the cast back into children was always going to be hard to sell due to the bad taste GT left in everyone's mouths. This is where the marketing truly failed the show, as demonstrating more of its epic moments would've at least helped open people up to the possibility of it working this time.

I appreciate that they gave the concept another crack, but seeing that it didn't land with audiences twice, with decades in between attempts, then hopefully they finally learn the lesson on that one and never try it again.

2- The timeline placement: We've been stuck in the 10 year time gap for over a decade now, and just as Superhero got us to the end of Z, they go back to the Buu era AGAIN. Why not set this after the end of Z instead ? Everything story-wise would've been the exact same, with the exception of the 3 or so minutes of Trunks' birthday party.

It certainly was a questionable choice. Toriyama's fear that the characters had become far too old at that point would have been completely voided by the entire premise of Daima.

The series' presentation as like an alternate final arc between the Buu arc and the introduction of Uub doesn't sit right. While exploration of the Demon Realm is a natural sequel premise after the introduction of Dabura, there's a massive visual and tonal whiplash if you were to go from one straight to the other. The Buu is definitely lighthearted and whimsical in places, but it's still following the action-heavy mould set by the preceding arcs. Battle was still the central focus of everything, right down to the characters motivations, whereas Daima swerves hard back into the adventurous angle, only to just as suddenly swerve back into mindless action in the final stretch.

[JulieYBM]

That's the thing that blows my mind: like...there's not much story? There's concepts being explained about the demon realm, but not stories being built around those concepts. A writing team should have been brought to help Kakihara just turn Toriyama's notes into fleshed out episodes to built around those lore elements, rather than just stating it all linearly and then moving into the action. Toei Animation literally does this with their other cartoons.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The "Super problem" rears its head again. At first, I was willing to accept that any writing flaws in Daima were just down to bad luck/incompetence, but if this was the case, you'd think they'd have learned at that point not to be so slavishly deferent to Toriyama or get too far ahead of themselves with the animation.

Toriyama started having health trouble in the middle of everything, so it wasn't exactly anyone's fault that they had to move on ahead of him. With a production as large as Daima's with all the talent involved, it probably wasn't easy to just stop and start everything at a moment's notice.

I appreciate that they gave the concept another crack, but seeing that it didn't land with audiences twice, with decades in between attempts, then hopefully they finally learn the lesson on that one and never try it again.

I personally didn't mind it here as much as some fans, but you're right, they really need to stop trying to make this work.

It certainly was a questionable choice. Toriyama's fear that the characters had become far too old at that point would have been completely voided by the entire premise of Daima.

Exactly. The only change would've been during those 2-3 minutes at the party; everything else would've been exactly the same. It would've made Ssj4 more logical, as Goku would've been training for a decade up tot hat point.

The series' presentation as like an alternate final arc between the Buu arc and the introduction of Uub doesn't sit right. While exploration of the Demon Realm is a natural sequel premise after the introduction of Dabura, there's a massive visual and tonal whiplash if you were to go from one straight to the other.

It was never going to visually look exactly like it did 30 years ago, but I do think the staff got as close as reasonably possible considering how many decades are between the two stories.

The Buu is definitely lighthearted and whimsical in places, but it's still following the action-heavy mould set by the preceding arcs. Battle was still the central focus of everything, right down to the characters motivations, whereas Daima swerves hard back into the adventurous angle, only to just as suddenly swerve back into mindless action in the final stretch.

Although not perfect, I do think they did a good job balancing the adventure nature of early DB with the more action focused aspects introduced in the Piccolo arcs. I do believe that if the manga continued for a bit longer back in the day, then Daima and Battle of Gods are the types of stories would've gotten, as they feel the closest to Toriyama's style from back then.

I think the fact that the most talked about parts of Daima are the shiny new transformations Goku and Vegeta got should once again reinforce that Dragon Ball is at its most popular when it’s firmly focused on the big flashy fights and high octane power levels, rather than the “adventure” or comedy.

To be fair, "canon" Ssj4 Goku has been a fan request for the past decade, while Ssj3 Vegeta has been anticipated for decades since the 90s, so it's not really surprising that they're the most talked about aspects of Daima.

[WittyUsername]

I’m pretty sure the reason Daima takes place shortly after the battle with Kid Boo was so Toriyama could avoid having to address characters like Beerus and Freeza, while also leaving the door open for more Super storylines.

[JulieYBM]

I don't think Toriyama ever intended to somehow 'retcon' Dragon Ball Super at all, simply that he had no use for those characters for this story. That being said, I do not foresee the production committee trying to do some 'dual franchising' or whatever with there being a separate continuity for Dragon Ball Daima and Dragon Ball Super. I very much expect Dragon Ball Super to acknowledge Dragon Ball Daima elements the second that the comic continues or a new Dragon Ball Super animated project is released.

[MasenkoHA]

I’m pretty sure the reason Daima takes place shortly after the battle with Kid Boo was so Toriyama could avoid having to address characters like Beerus and Freeza, while also leaving the door open for more Super storylines.

I guess Dragon Ball is no stranger to continuity snarls but Daima really doesn’t feel like it fits in with Super at all. Daima stuck with the manga’s original idea that potara fusion is permanent regardless of being mortal or god and Boo’s gas is what undid the fusion. Ignoring Super’s retcon all together and giving a different explanation for how Kibito and Shin de-fused. It also seems weird that Goku and Vegeta didn’t pull out Super Saiyan 4 and 3 against Beerus.


Maybe the intention of Daima’s placement was to avoid contradicting Super but they contradicted Super anyways and I don’t think placing Daima just before or after the epilogue of the manga would have made a difference.

[JulieYBM]

I one hundred percent believe that Toriyama read the Majin Buu arc before coming up with Daima's plot and wholly forgot that Kibito and Shin return to being two different beings in Dragon Ball Super and nobody corrected him Because Toriyama. That just seems like the sort of thing that happens, especially since Toriyama doesn't seem like the kind of guy to care to hire a Lore Keeper like a Star Wars, Star Trek or Marvel would have.

[WittyUsername]

I absolutely agree that Daima doesn’t fit with Super in terms of continuity. I’ve been saying since February that it’s best to view Daima as its own separate timeline. I just don’t think that was Toriyama’s intention. I think he genuinely just overlooked the inconsistencies between the two series. Why no one bothered to point these inconsistencies out to him is anyone’s guess. Maybe they simply had too much respect for Toriyama Sensei to question his ideas.

[Mr Baggins]

Why do you care how much/little the fan base discuss a piece of media? Does that impact your investment in the show?

Best post in this thread, and it's the 18th reply in a topic about 18 episodes. Checked.

I don't care about pop culture or "the zeitgeist"; there's a whole world of worthwhile media to enjoy that never had the luxury of becoming major phenomena. Sand Land is arguably Toriyama's magnum opus and nobody talks about it. I just care that I really liked the final project of a guy that wasn't trying to out-bombast the industry or even himself, and instead just wanted to tell a fun adventure story like all of his other fun adventure stories.

Looking forward to getting the Blu-ray.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Daima really doesn’t feel like it fits in with Super at all.

I’ve been saying that it’s best to view Daima as its own separate timeline.

I never understood why fans have been so obsessed with Daima fitting in with Super. Back in the day, the majority of Z's movies didn't fit within the main story line, yet no one complained about. Fusion Reborn is one of the most beloved of the old movies, despite it not fitting anywhere.