What's Canon ? We Finally Have an Answer

[Luso Saiyan]

One was a co-writer of the modern manga, while the other was his long time editor.

Yes, and neither are the author.

What's "clickbait" about it ?

The title, of course.

[Desassina]

I think that Toyotaro was just highlighting what fans already expected and did at a subconscious level for some (comic) relief. He must know that it's an issue that concerns them, hence the question asked at the panel, and he did the best that he could to not speak in the author's name. 'Canon' is simply not the fans' to claim when its definition implies that it's the author's call, but I didn't see the same (if any) effort from Toriyama in laying things down concretely, so fans can't speak on his behalf by virtue of what the word is to validate some things and not others.

There's a franchise and its products with an identity that makes you look at its derivatives and think "this is Dragon Ball", and there is a personal and collective image of it that makes you think "I'd rather witness the actual thing" when discussion about it is taken to an extreme, or "this is an interesting collection of documented trivia surrounding the actual thing" when discussion is kept self aware and it redirects people towards the series again (like this website does). Just disconnect yourself from internet discussion for a while, sit down and read or watch Dragon Ball related stuff, come back with the feeling that it's great that all this exists.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Yes, and neither are the author.

Let's see what "the author" had to say about the various parts of the series that weren't present in his original manga:

Dragon Ball GT: "Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball".
Dragon Ball's old movies: "I take the movies as stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic".
Modern Dragon Ball: "The anime series from 2013 onward has been a casual continuation of my original manga".

No matter who we're talking about, be it Toriyama (the original author), Toyotaro (his successor/student), or Torishima (his long-time editor and mentor), no one in any official capacity views any of these parts of the franchise on the same level as the original manga.

The title, of course.

Considering Toriyama went out of his way to contradict Super in Daima, I guess something along the lines of "Torishima and Toyotaro further de-legitimize Super's position in the franchise" would've been more appropriate.

[TheGreatness25]

Doesn't saying that "everything is canon" kind of defeat the entire purpose? Isn't canon basically just the guideline for us to follow to make sense of the story? For example, Z is canon to GT, Super, and Daima, but GT isn't canon to Super or Daima (and vice versa) and Super is not canon to Daima or GT (and vice versa), etc. When we get our next Dragon Ball story and we are presented with the building blocks for that story, it's obvious that we can't say that "everything is canon" because it won't be (unless it's something like Super Dragon Ball Heroes).

I don't know, I feel like maybe I'm misunderstanding the premise of canon or something. It's impossible that everything is canon because it can't all serve as the foundation of a story if the story flat out ignores and contradicts an entire series such as GT or Super or even Daima. If the next story takes place a year after Piccolo Jr. and Goku has a daughter, and they go off on some crazy adventure, then Z will no longer be canon to that story.

You can say that they all have their own canon, but if the series is over (like GT, for example) and it's clearly not being revisited, then while it has its own canon, it's kind of irrelevant to the latest Dragon Ball story. Or am I wrong in how I look at canon? Yes, obviously it all exists, it's all official, it's all got fans and haters, but it's not all material that is relevant to the direction that the story is going in in the future.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I don't know, I feel like maybe I'm misunderstanding the premise of canon or something. It's impossible that everything is canon because it can't all serve as the foundation of a story if the story flat out ignores and contradicts an entire series such as GT or Super or even Daima. If the next story takes place a year after Piccolo Jr. and Goku has a daughter, and they go off on some crazy adventure, then Z will no longer be canon to that story.

Canon is basically the foundation of a work of literature. In terms of Dragon Ball, the original manga is the foundation of the entire franchise, while everything else branches off it; it's always taken into account and never contradicted in a major way in favor of something else. Everything has to work within the confines of it, regardless of whether or not they fit together. GT, Super, and Daima all had to line up with the manga, but not one another. No one in any official capacity is going to say that work A (Super for example) is canon, while work B (GT for example) isn't, for the simple fact that it would hurt sales. Aside from the original manga, it's up to each fan to choose what they consume.

[Luso Saiyan]

no one in any official capacity views any of these parts of the franchise on the same level as the original manga.

Why would they?

Considering Toriyama went out of his way to contradict Super in Daima, I guess something along the lines of "Torishima and Toyotaro further de-legitimize Super's position in the franchise" would've been more appropriate.

You don't even know the full extent of which parts of Super and Daima came directly from Toriyama and which didn't, yet you're quick to claim that Toriyama himself "went out of his way to contradict Super in Daima".

Try not to jump to conclusions when there's very little information about what explicitly came from whom in those projects. Toriyama was always only beholden to what he did himself (i.e: the canon), and that never changed.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

You don't even know the full extent of which parts of Super and Daima came directly from Toriyama and which didn't, yet you're quick to claim that Toriyama himself "went out of his way to contradict Super in Daima".

We know that Toriyama was involved the most with Daima out of all the modern projects he worked on, as he said so himself when the show was announced. If he didn't want to contradict Super, he wouldn't have, but he probably didn't care too much about it considering it was just a "casual continuation" of the manga; nothing more.

Toriyama was always only beholden to what he did himself (i.e: the canon), and that never changed.

I agree, which is why Daima lines up with the original manga and not its "casual continuation".

[Koitsukai]

Doesn't saying that "everything is canon" kind of defeat the entire purpose? Isn't canon basically just the guideline for us to follow to make sense of the story? For example, Z is canon to GT, Super, and Daima, but GT isn't canon to Super or Daima (and vice versa) and Super is not canon to Daima or GT (and vice versa), etc. When we get our next Dragon Ball story and we are presented with the building blocks for that story, it's obvious that we can't say that "everything is canon" because it won't be (unless it's something like Super Dragon Ball Heroes).

I don't know, I feel like maybe I'm misunderstanding the premise of canon or something. It's impossible that everything is canon because it can't all serve as the foundation of a story if the story flat out ignores and contradicts an entire series such as GT or Super or even Daima. If the next story takes place a year after Piccolo Jr. and Goku has a daughter, and they go off on some crazy adventure, then Z will no longer be canon to that story.

You can say that they all have their own canon, but if the series is over (like GT, for example) and it's clearly not being revisited, then while it has its own canon, it's kind of irrelevant to the latest Dragon Ball story. Or am I wrong in how I look at canon? Yes, obviously it all exists, it's all official, it's all got fans and haters, but it's not all material that is relevant to the direction that the story is going in in the future.

I think that's why they are saying everything counts and it's up to you to choose your own "canon" or continuity, aside of the set-in-stone continuity.
The original story, Pilaf to Buu is the bible, outside of that, you can pretend Goku after Buu fights Uub and then Baby, or meets Beerus and fights Uub and it ends, or he fights Gomah and then Uub and it ends. Or after Buu, he fights Uub, and then DB Online happens. Or that somehow, all timelines meet up, no matter how they contradict each other, in SDBH.

Since every little sequel or midquel has been placed after the Buu arc, it's probably safe to assume we'll never get a story that takes place after Ma Jr with Goku having a daughter instead of a son; at best we'll get a story in that time period that doesn't contradict Raditz's arrival. Shit, we already have things like that(Garlic Jr.), and it's also up to us to choose how that happens or what counts. There's no "fix" from the PTB. Believe what you like.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The original story, Pilaf to Buu is the bible, outside of that, you can pretend Goku after Buu fights Uub and then Baby, or meets Beerus and fights Uub and it ends, or he fights Gomah and then Uub and it ends. Or after Buu, he fights Uub, and then DB Online happens. Or that somehow, all timelines meet up, no matter how they contradict each other, in SDBH.

You could go from Buu, to Battle of Gods, then to Daima, and finally to End of Z. I think the only contradiction would be Trunks' birthday, but there's nothing major that would prevent going from that movie to Daima feeling natural. Daima actually makes more sense being set after that movie, as the SsjG ritual can be used to explain how Goku was able to discover a new form so soon after the fight with Buu. Vegeta's rage boost can also be used to explain how he unlocked Ssj3 in the living world.

[Dbzfan94]

“GT isn’t canon” is finally dead

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

“GT isn’t canon” is finally dead

Not really, Toyotaro and Torishima are saying exactly what Toriyama said about GT for the Japanese release of the Dragon Boxes.

Akira Toriyama wrote:

Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it’ll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together.

In other words while it may not be a part of the core story (i.e. the original manga as published in Weekly Shonen Jump between 1984 and 1995) it is more Dragon Ball that's there for people to enjoy if they so please.

Naturally as the original author Toriyama reserved the right to judge whether GT was a direction he would have taken the story in, but he was probably flattered that other writers wanted to do something with his characters and world. These comments came nearly a decade after GT's run on Fuji TV so there was plenty of time for Toriyama to express his disappointment if he had any.

By the sounds of things though Toriyama had more enthusiasm for GT than George Lucas did for the Star Wars expanded universe, which he admitted to not reading and only giving guidance at times.

As has been said no one in an official capacity from the Japanese side is going to say "GT is not canon" because it would be bad for business, as its still a product TOEI and other companies stand to make money from distributing the anime and the various merchandising opportunities (playable characters in video games, figures, etc) respectively.

[Luso Saiyan]

If he didn't want to contradict Super, he wouldn't have,

Again, who said he did? You don't know what his contributions were in each project, so you can't claim those same contributions contradict each other to begin with.

I agree, which is why Daima lines up with the original manga and not its "casual continuation".

Huh?!

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Again, who said he did? You don't know what his contributions were in each project, so you can't claim those same contributions contradict each other to begin with.

You and other fans of Super trying to explain why it was ignored is both funny and sad. The metal gymnastics you've all displayed since Daima started airing has been very entertaining.

Huh?!

You said that "Toriyama was always only beholden to what he did himself (i.e: the canon), and that never changed.", which I agree with. However, that's only the original manga, not Super. Toriyama's editors went as far as to say he didn't exactly like working on Super either.

[VegettoEX]

You and other fans of Super trying to explain why it was ignored is both funny and sad. The metal gymnastics you've all displayed since Daima started airing has been very entertaining.

Your posts are overly antagonistic and frustrating to read, both from a general-membership perspective, as well as an administrative perspective. These posts of yours are perfect examples of ones that, while not "technically" "breaking" any "rules"... they absolutely do not live up to the spirit of our community guidelines.

This is an official, free warning, offered as a good faith recommendation for all future posts.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Your posts are overly antagonistic and frustrating to read, both from a general-membership perspective, as well as an administrative perspective. These posts of yours are perfect examples of ones that, while not "technically" "breaking" any "rules"... they absolutely do not live up to the spirit of our community guidelines.

You're right, I'm sorry. I was trying to word that in a humorous way, but I can see how it can come off as antagonistic.

[Dbzfan94]

“GT isn’t canon” is finally dead

Not really, Toyotaro and Torishima are saying exactly what Toriyama said about GT for the Japanese release of the Dragon Boxes.

Akira Toriyama wrote:

Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it’ll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together.

In other words while it may not be a part of the core story (i.e. the original manga as published in Weekly Shonen Jump between 1984 and 1995) it is more Dragon Ball that's there for people to enjoy if they so please.

Naturally as the original author Toriyama reserved the right to judge whether GT was a direction he would have taken the story in, but he was probably flattered that other writers wanted to do something with his characters and world. These comments came nearly a decade after GT's run on Fuji TV so there was plenty of time for Toriyama to express his disappointment if he had any.

By the sounds of things though Toriyama had more enthusiasm for GT than George Lucas did for the Star Wars expanded universe, which he admitted to not reading and only giving guidance at times.

As has been said no one in an official capacity from the Japanese side is going to say "GT is not canon" because it would be bad for business, as its still a product TOEI and other companies stand to make money from distributing the anime and the various merchandising opportunities (playable characters in video games, figures, etc) respectively.

Oh I know, just saying that the now-current writer says canon can be whatever you want makes me feel like the arrogance about canon / any mentions of GT/filler/movies etc gets handwaved away as “it’s not canon” will finally start to slow down.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the most interesting part is how Toyotaro seemed to be the only one engaging with the question. Torishima basically laughed at the idea. That alone shows how little weight the creators place on canonicity. And honestly, I’m okay with that. Dragon Ball never operated on a strict rulebook. Toriyama himself made that clear a long time ago. They always prioritized fun over logic, and even the original manga was full of contradictions.

[GhostEmperorX]

Doesn't saying that "everything is canon" kind of defeat the entire purpose?

It's not the first time this sort of "answer" has been given to a question of this nature about official JP productions by staff from there. It's a common evasive pattern.

The following is the most on-the-mark reading of the situation presented here thus far:

As has been said no one in an official capacity from the Japanese side is going to say "GT is not canon" because it would be bad for business, as its still a product TOEI and other companies stand to make money from distributing the anime and the various merchandising opportunities (playable characters in video games, figures, etc) respectively.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't think this changes anything. New content will continue from where Super Hero left off, and the vast majority of internet discourse will continue to look at Super as the natural continuation of the Buu saga, since it has more content and is more popular than the other series.

Now let's look at some facts:

- Super has 131 episodes and 2 movies (let's ignore BoG and RoF since they are DBZ-branded and they are retold in the anime anyway).

- GT has 64 episodes and 1 movie.

- Daima has 20 episodes.

Now let's suppose: If you are a new fan who just finished watching the original series and knows NOTHING about what happens after the Buu saga, which series are you more likely to watch first and consider "more important" than the others?

I mean, ultimately, Super has way more content than the other two series put together. Toyotaro can say whatever he wants, but I'd say it's pretty obvious Super will continue to be held in higher regard.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

- Super has 131 episodes and 2 movies.

- GT has 64 episodes and 1 movie.

- Daima has 20 episodes.

I mean, ultimately, Super has way more content than the other two series put together. Toyotaro can say whatever he wants, but I'd say it's pretty obvious Super will continue to be held in higher regard.

Super is a great example of how quantity does not in any way, shape, or for, equal quality. Your list above is how those three series are ranked from worst to best.